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Thread: "disconnecting the link between (European) DNA and Identity and Belonging"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    My God, through selection and drift in widely separated areas of the world, as Bicicleur stated, human beings fall into three major "poles" of variation, with everyone else being a mixture of those groups.

    I don't give a damn whether you call them races, or continental breeding groups, or a made up name of your choice. That's a FACT. Use your reason, logic, and just plain common sense and stop letting all your emotional or political orientations get in the way of an intellectual analysis.

    Differences within Europe are irrelevant. Most Europeans clump together in comparison to the rest of the world. Or, if you like, you could look at West Eurasians as a group. The only ones who then "pull away" a bit are those with Eastern Eurasian or SSA ancestry.

    It's so simple that a middle school student would be able to understand it yet it occasions all this sophistry and angst here.

    Is the ability to rationally look at data truly a thing of the past? Must everything be tainted by emotion and political agendas?
    It's part of the rationality that when someone speaks about races or continental breeding groups, that is clear what is meant (definition). And as races are connected with classifications this means that is also has to rational clear what defines those classifications (what are the sets of limits within them). When the things are not exactly, rational clear, it is all going to be like bubble gum, and becomes total subjective. Race as defined by Jovialis as 'dramatic genetic differentiation' is imo not a clear rational definition.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailchu View Post
    @Jovialis am i able to post comparisions of intra european genetic distances with european/non-european distances without you giving me infractions for hate speech against europeans again?

    why is this hate speech for you?
    I have already exhaustively explained to you the reason for difference multiple times on multiple threads. I seriously wonder if you are lower-IQ or just some spiteful Arabic t-roll.

    Also, post whatever you want, it is not new to me, because I have see the distances.

    I'm actually working on a PCA right now for West Eurasians:



    WTF do you think makes the middle eastern people different from the European side?

    You could post distances between a german, and a german that is hypothetically 10% SSA admixed. They'll come out similar, but what is the difference? Or are you too obtuse to process that?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    You could post distances between a german, and a german that is hypothetically 10% SSA admixed. They'll come out similar, but what is the difference? Or are you too obtuse to process that?
    I can see the difference. But as you want to classify you have to make 'classes'. So when is something differentiated 'enough' to make subcategories. That's the essence that is in fact quit rational. You can quantify it. If you leave it with 'dramatic genetic differences' than this stays quit unclear.

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    Also, you received an infraction for hate speech, because you said Europeans don't exist. Because I know you hate the idea of it being a reality. I think giving you an infraction for stupidity would have been more appropriate however.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northener View Post
    I can see the difference. But as you want to classify you have to make 'classes'. So when is something differentiated 'enough' to make subcategories. That's the essence that is in fact quit rational. You can quantify it. If you leave it with 'dramatic genetic differences' then this stay quit unclear.
    That person would be classified as an Octoroon, give or take.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    I always wondered, since Dzudzuana aka Paleolithic Caucasian was proposed as the "core of west Eurasian ancestry", could that help confirm "Caucasian" as an appropriate term? It seems to me they are the centrum of the "Caucasoid race" augmented by other paleolithic people on the peripheries, giving rise to the source populations of Europeans and Middle easterners.


    Basal Eurasian samples are all that is needed to verify this. It is called the "holy grail" of aDNA for a reason.


    I sincerely hope that this pre-print wasn't abandoned due to pressure from the politically correct woke guidelines, and peer-reviewers this thread is based on...
    We know from the study Paleolithic Caucasians were Anatolia_N-like.



    Here is a better angle to distinguish the middle east from the European side in 3D:


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Differences within Europe are irrelevant. Most Europeans clump together in comparison to the rest of the world. Or, if you like, you could look at West Eurasians as a group.
    that means the differences between europeans and non-european westeurasians are irrelevant too. and yet you have people who want to seperate the two into different subgroups. it is again showcasing how subjective and arbitrary all of this is.

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    I have noticed for a long time, that people who are far-left live in the fantasy of word manipulation. It could be any topic, and they twist and contort themselves to look at axioms, and turn them on their head to meet their world views.

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    Snippet from Zach Goldberg's dissertation from Georgia State University.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northener View Post
    We have got E=Mc2. No dispute. A given 'rule'.
    Classifications of race are under dispute. Your definition: dramatic genetic difference is not like E=Mc2.
    Because it's under dispute (not a given law) it is a social construct.
    The fact that it is a social construct doesn't mean that it's not real.
    The fact that it is not enough means it is a matter of politics.

    I'm not sure if all liberals dispute the existence of race, but it seems that the White ones do the most. At least when it comes to their own race.



    According to the chart close to 20% of White liberals are White traitors/abolitionists i.e. Anti-White

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    The fact that it is not enough means it is a matter of politics.

    I'm not sure if all liberals dispute the existence of race, but it seems that the White ones do the most. At least when it comes to their own race.



    According to the chart close to 20% of White liberals are White traitors/abolitionists i.e. Anti-White
    No it's about methodology.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Serendipity is real. For those doubting that there are three poles of variation globally.

    See:
    Genetic Structure, Self-Identified Race/Ethnicity, and Confounding in Case-Control Association Studies

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1196372/

    "Subjects identified themselves as belonging to one of four major racial/ethnic groups (white, African American, East Asian, and Hispanic) and were recruited from 15 different geographic locales within the United States and Taiwan. Genetic cluster analysis of the microsatellite markers produced four major clusters, which showed near-perfect correspondence with the four self-reported race/ethnicity categories. Of 3,636 subjects of varying race/ethnicity, only 5 (0.14%) showed genetic cluster membership different from their self-identified race/ethnicity. On the other hand, we detected only modest genetic differentiation between different current geographic locales within each race/ethnicity group. Thus, ancient geographic ancestry, which is highly correlated with self-identified race/ethnicity—as opposed to current residence—is the major determinant of genetic structure in the U.S. population. Implications of this genetic structure for case-control association studies are discussed."

    "
    From an evolutionary point of view, population stratification (genetically distinct subgrouping) and admixture (intermating between genetically distinct groups) are created by human mating patterns. Geographical, social, and cultural barriers have given rise to reproductively isolated human populations, within which random drift has produced genetic differentiation."

    That is the science gentlemen, whatever the discomfort it may cause.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Serendipity is real. For those doubting that there are three poles of variation globally.

    See:
    Genetic Structure, Self-Identified Race/Ethnicity, and Confounding in Case-Control Association Studies

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1196372/

    "Subjects identified themselves as belonging to one of four major racial/ethnic groups (white, African American, East Asian, and Hispanic) and were recruited from 15 different geographic locales within the United States and Taiwan. Genetic cluster analysis of the microsatellite markers produced four major clusters, which showed near-perfect correspondence with the four self-reported race/ethnicity categories. Of 3,636 subjects of varying race/ethnicity, only 5 (0.14%) showed genetic cluster membership different from their self-identified race/ethnicity. On the other hand, we detected only modest genetic differentiation between different current geographic locales within each race/ethnicity group. Thus, ancient geographic ancestry, which is highly correlated with self-identified race/ethnicity—as opposed to current residence—is the major determinant of genetic structure in the U.S. population. Implications of this genetic structure for case-control association studies are discussed."

    "
    From an evolutionary point of view, population stratification (genetically distinct subgrouping) and admixture (intermating between genetically distinct groups) are created by human mating patterns. Geographical, social, and cultural barriers have given rise to reproductively isolated human populations, within which random drift has produced genetic differentiation."

    That is the science gentlemen, whatever the discomfort it may cause.
    Yes I guess so and I belong obviously to the genetic subcluster Saxons! Clear ('dramatic') differentiated on the PCA's and also dignified phenotype.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Taken from Razib Khan's twitter feed.


    What will this look like 20+ years from now?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Taken from Razib Khan's twitter feed.


    What will this look like 20+ years from now?
    Crucial imo is Regio X remark, imo bull's eye:

    My goal, in short, was to show that
    1) Race is an informal term.
    2) It'd be a social construct, as Reich suggested.
    3) Its applicability depends on the way one defines it, naturally.
    4) It may be seen as something below subspecies, like an ecotype. Then ok, but there are more meaningful terms at our disposal imo.
    5) It's frequently seen as subespecies though.
    6) Subspecies likely don't exist among modern humans. There's no such thing as, say, Homo sapiens africanus, asiaticus or something.
    To say it more blunt, in the case of humans we don't have homo sapiens, africans and asiaticus indeed, in the case of horses and donkey's this is sincerely the case.

    That's why racial classifications are 'man made' and based on arbitrary definitions. Because of that you could state that 'Europeans' are a race, just like 'Saxons' are a race, it's all a matter how you define it.
    Last edited by Northener; 27-09-22 at 22:28.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northener View Post
    Crucial imo is Regio X remark, imo bull's eye:



    To say it more blunt, in the case of humans we don't have homo sapiens, africans and asiaticus indeed, in the case of horses and donkey's this is sincerely the case.

    That's why racial classifications are 'man made' and based on arbitrary definitions. Because of that ypu could state that 'Europeans' are a race, just like 'Saxons' are a race, it's all a matter how you define it.
    What about the genetic study that Angela posted?

    To me, I think West Eurasians (Caucasoids) form something that could be considered a race. While Europeans and West Asians/Middle Easterners are two main branches of that classification, while Northern Europeans/Nordic people are a sub-set of Europeans, and Saxons would be a sub-set of Northern Europeans.

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    Frankly, I think many archaeogeneticists are just paying lip service to social scientists, watch dogs and political forces to allow them to continue what they are doing. Otherwise, their research would not see the light of day. But that's just my opinion. Razib Khan seems to be alluding to this.

    Sort of like how corporations pretend to be woke as a means to their ends. Otherwise, they would be shaken down by people like Al Sharpton.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Frankly, I think many archaeogeneticists are just paying lip service to social scientists, watch dogs and political forces to allow them to continue what they are doing. Otherwise, their research would not see the light of day. But that's just my opinion. Razib Khan seems to be alluding to this.

    Sort of like how corporations pretend to be woke as a means to their ends. Otherwise, they would be shaken down by people like Al Sharpton.
    Woke this woke that...I woke up this morning that's the only important woke affinity I have.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    What about the genetic study that Angela posted?
    I'm a self reported Saxon and in also cluster in this region on a pca. That 'swhat this study also dis, self report and then a place on a pca.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northener View Post
    Woke this woke that...I woke up this morning that's the only important woke affinity I have.
    Have to be rude no matter the thread?

    That's ok. I can do that too.

    I don't care what you think.

    Just wish people would stop engaging with you, as there's never anything to learn; just argumentative, obnoxious, trivial points of view.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    What about the genetic study that Angela posted?
    To me, I think West Eurasians (Caucasoids) form something that could be considered a race. While Europeans and West Asians/Middle Easterners are two main branches of that classification, while Northern Europeans/Nordic people are a sub-set of Europeans, and Saxons would be a sub-set of Northern Europeans.
    According to Angelas study they coumd not find further subclusters for the caucasians cluster.
    Perhaps they would not even have found real clusters at all if they had more samples. for example "east asian" and "caucasian" are not capturing all eurasians.
    And they also write that aprevious study could not differentiate between hispanics and caucasians partially because the samples were different.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northener View Post
    Woke this woke that...I woke up this morning that's the only important woke affinity I have.
    You must smoke a lot of weed to deny reality like you do, and reduce clearly observable facts to a social construct.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ailchu View Post
    According to Angelas study they coumd not find further subclusters for the caucasians cluster.
    Perhaps they would not even have found real clusters at all if they had more samples. for example "east asian" and "caucasian" are not capturing all eurasians.
    And they also write that aprevious study could not differentiate between hispanics and caucasians partially because the samples were different.
    2+2= social construct

    Funny how triggered the two of you are by me posting that humans from different regions are mixed with various archaic ancient hominids. The mental gymnastics you have to do to deny reality is pathetic. I seriously wonder if you can even think for yourselves.

    Quote Originally Posted by Northener View Post
    Crucial imo is Regio X remark, imo bull's eye:



    To say it more blunt, in the case of humans we don't have homo sapiens, africans and asiaticus indeed, in the case of horses and donkey's this is sincerely the case.

    That's why racial classifications are 'man made' and based on arbitrary definitions. Because of that you could state that 'Europeans' are a race, just like 'Saxons' are a race, it's all a matter how you define it.
    WTF does Regio's remarks have to do with the fact that people are in fact mixed with divergent species? "yes people are not different races according to some 19th century standard". Modern science only proves they are different because they're mixed with totally different species, but I guess that's a social construct. Says the "Saxon" and his foil.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Have to be rude no matter the thread?

    That's ok. I can do that too.

    I don't care what you think.

    Just wish people would stop engaging with you, as there's never anything to learn; just argumentative, obnoxious, trivial points of view.
    Good idea, there's no use talking to a fanatic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Funny how triggered the two of you are by me posting that humans from different regions are mixed with various archaic ancient hominids. The mental gymnastics you have to do to deny reality is pathetic. I seriously wonder if you can even think for yourselves.
    what makes you think i'm triggered because ot this? i never argued against the differences between humans. but your argument with archaic admixture is not really proving anything. am i a different race because of my 1-2% neanderthal admixture? there are other things which have way bigger effects on population differences. for example simple drift.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Modern science only proves they are different because they're mixed with totally different species, but I guess that's a social construct. Says the "Saxon" and his foil.
    we can just agree to disagree. have your racial groups if you must. and if you say that the rejection of the european race/subgroup model is hate speech against europeans then i say that the proposition of such a group is hate speech against other caucasians. because it disregards actual genetic relationships in favour of a political agenda.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailchu View Post
    what makes you think i'm triggered because ot this? i never argued against the differences between humans. but your argument with archaic admixture is not really proving anything. am i a different race because of my 1-2% neanderthal admixture? there are other things which have way bigger effects on population differences. for example simple drift.


    we can just agree to disagree. have your racial groups if you must. and if you say that the rejection of the european race/subgroup model is hate speech against europeans then i say that the proposition of such a group is hate speech against other caucasians. because it disregards actual genetic relationships in favour of a political agenda.
    Totally agree Alichu!

    As long as the differences within humans not of the kind of differences between a horse and a donkey, we can within a defined subset make further subsets (zoom in, zoom out), that's also for Europeans the case. Imo quit logical.

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