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Thread: "disconnecting the link between (European) DNA and Identity and Belonging"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I agree. I identify as an Italian in terms of ethnicity. The festivals we celebrate, because they are the "Italians" with whom we most identify, are those relating to the Medieval and Renaissance eras.

    That doesn't mean that I'm going to ignore ancient dna. Of course, any analysis of it in comparison to my own dna has to be informed by history and archaeology.

    With one of the tools which is available I am closest to northern Balkan and Albanian. Now, what does that mean? Given that I am not from the Balkans it may only mean that I happen to have coincidentally inherited genes similar to those of the people of that time and place. However, it doesn't seem likely that it's a total coincidence, like the product of a Chinese and a Brit plotting on top of Central Asians, given how close I am. The Balkans and Italy have a long history, having received the same migrations in the Neolithic and the Bronze Age, as well as having some degree of WHG. More importantly, in terms of possible descent, there is documented movement from the Balkans into Italy, movement which has continued down to the present, although more of that later.

    So, should I apply for citizenship in modern Makedonia or Albania? :) Clearly not, for they have their own history and culture, which I don't share, and it is more a case of shared ancestors from a distant past, although perhaps it does speak somewhat to the fact that Italy did not change as much as the Balkans since those periods.

    In another tool, I can be modeled as over 60% Latini, a big chunk of Minoan_Lashithi, and a bit left over apparently. Now, what "path" led to that very good fit? It's hardly a coincidence, like the model of the offspring of the Brit and the East Asian. I have a detailed genealogy, which, although it doesn't go back to the Classical Era, goes back on almost all lines to the 1500s, and on some lines to the 1000s, all, by the way, in a very circumscribed area of northwestern Emilia, northwestern Toscana, and eastern Liguria.

    So, does it strain credulity that I am the descendant of the Latins who populated my area of Italy, and Greeks, mainland or Aegean, and perhaps some Greek speaking people from Anatolia itself, who were perhaps residents of Luni, a major cosmopolitan hub also in my area? I don't think so. Now, yes, it is true that after the fall of the Empire, Germanics, most importantly, in terms of numbers, the Lombards, came into this area. Their castles dot every hill of the Magra, and indeed I was born in the shadow of the tower built by them. More than that, the family name of the "dynasty" which ruled our (my mother's) area appears in her family tree, not a fact of which she is proud, given that a more rapacious, inept group of robber barons would be difficult to find.

    So, did the Lombards have some genetic effect in my area? Yes, I'm sure they did. The operative question is how much. What all the proponents of this mass wave from Central Europe after the fall of Rome conveniently forget over and over again is that by their own reckoning, the Lombards and associated Germanic groups numbered 60,000 people, including women and children. Ancient peoples were wont to play fast and loose with numbers, but always, to my knowledge, to enlarge them. Plus, the proof is in the archaeology and the genetics. The largest number of Lombard castles lie in northeastern Italy, which was the first area in Italy which they subdued, and which they had to protect against incursions by the Slavs. Is it a coincidence that that is where the largest concentration of yDna R1b U-106 and I1 can be found? By comparison, the percentages in Toscana are under 10%.

    Unless the rest of northern and northwestern-central Italy was invaded by Lombard women, this "massive" wave from Central Europe to magically turn people more "northern" again didn't happen. If someone is going to try to prove it they're going to have to do more than propose a statistical model. They're going to have to show me that wave in the archaeology and the yDna.

    Lastly, most of these people conveniently forget the only IBD analysis done which looks at the issue of the impact of migrations on Europeans, and that is Ralph and Coop. The chart makes very clear what they reiterate again and again. No significant migration events changed the dna of Italians after about 400 B.C., other than some input from the Balkans. That nicely covers both the Gauls and the Greeks of Magna Graecia, btw.

    https://journals.plos.org/plosbiolog...l.pbio.1001555

    One of the charts. Not shown in this particular one, but mentioned in the paper, to the best of my recollection, is the fact that Turkish genes were also examined.



    Until one of these labs addresses it and does their own IBD analysis, and addresses the yDna disparities, and includes the archaeology and histories, I will remain unconvinced that "their" path is the correct one.
    An indispensable contribution as usual :)

    This very much helps to narrow it down IMHO.

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    Here's one of Booth's papers, to add some more context to his beliefs:

    https://canvas.gu.se/courses/48058/f...APw262U&wrap=1

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    Michael Blakey’s paper is an important reminder of the egregious paths down which the ‘bio-
    deterministic imagination’can lead. This kind of biologically deterministic thinking is a major
    concern amongst archaeologists digesting recent studies of archaeogenetics (Booth 2019;
    Frieman and Hofmann 2019; Hakenbeck 2019).
    Here's the guy he is talking about, in his own words. You be the judge...

    https://www.blackagendareport.com/an...ewed-dr-jemima

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    Thanks to woke left-wing bias, archaeogenetics is becoming just another junk science aimed at social engineering. Be skeptical, and question academic authority.

    I am sorry to have defended it, I was wrong.

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    I have a problem with people that use genetics and archaeology in order to divide. It's one thing to be proud of your culture to appreciate it and celebrate it and completely another to advance nationalistic and racist viewpoints. Borders are artificial constructs that did not exist for some countries 100-200 years ago. What your progenitors did thousands of years ago matters not in what you will do today. Leave the world a better place than you found it. Do something that your descendants will be proud of, even if it's something as simple as being honest and kind in your dealings with other people. My son's kids will have Greek, Italian, British, Scottish Irish and German heritage. What does it all mean in the end?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    I have a problem with people that use genetics and archaeology in order to divide. It's one thing to be proud of your culture to appreciate it and celebrate it and completely another to advance nationalistic and racist viewpoints. Borders are artificial constructs that did not exist for some countries 100-200 years ago. What your progenitors did thousands of years ago matters not in what you will do today. Leave the world a better place than you found it. Do something that your descendants will be proud of, even if it's something as simple as being honest and kind in your dealings with other people. My son's kids will have Greek, Italian, British, Scottish Irish and German heritage. What does it all mean in the end?
    I agree with you. But they seem to want to take it a step forward, where you will disconnect from feelings of pride. Since they want to disconnect identity and belonging all together.

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    "My son's kids will have Greek, Italian, British, Scottish Irish and German heritage. What does it all mean in the end?"

    They're American :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I agree. I identify as an Italian in terms of ethnicity. The festivals we celebrate, because they are the "Italians" with whom we most identify, are those relating to the Medieval and Renaissance eras.

    That doesn't mean that I'm going to ignore ancient dna. Of course, any analysis of it in comparison to my own dna has to be informed by history and archaeology.

    With one of the tools which is available I am closest to northern Balkan (Macedonian) and Albanian Iron Age samples. Now, what does that mean? Given that I am not from the Balkans it may only mean that I happen to have coincidentally inherited genes similar to those of the people of that time and place. However, it doesn't seem likely that it's a total coincidence, like the product of a Chinese and a Brit plotting on top of Central Asians, given how close I am. The Balkans and Italy have a long history, having received the same migrations in the Neolithic and the Bronze Age, as well as having some degree of WHG. More importantly, in terms of possible descent, there is documented movement from the Balkans into Italy, movement which has continued down to the present, although more of that later.

    So, should I apply for citizenship in modern Makedonia or Albania? :) Clearly not, for they have their own history and culture, which I don't share, and it is more a case of shared ancestors from a distant past, although perhaps it does speak somewhat to the fact that Italy did not change as much as the Balkans since those periods.

    In another tool, I can be modeled as over 60% Latini, a big chunk of Minoan_Lashithi, and a bit left over apparently. Now, what "path" led to that very good fit? It's hardly a coincidence, like the model of the offspring of the Brit and the East Asian. I have a detailed genealogy, which, although it doesn't go back to the Classical Era, goes back on almost all lines to the 1500s, and on some lines to the 1000s, all, by the way, in a very circumscribed area of northwestern Emilia, northwestern Toscana, and eastern Liguria.

    So, does it strain credulity that I am the descendant of the Latins who populated my area of Italy, and Greeks, mainland or Aegean, and perhaps some Greek speaking people from Anatolia itself, who were perhaps residents of Luni, a major cosmopolitan hub also in my area? I don't think so. Now, yes, it is true that after the fall of the Empire, Germanics, most importantly, in terms of numbers, the Lombards, came into this area. Their castles dot every hill of the Magra, and indeed I was born in the shadow of the tower built by them. More than that, the family name of the "dynasty" which ruled our (my mother's) area appears in her family tree, not a fact of which she is proud, given that a more rapacious, inept group of robber barons would be difficult to find.

    So, did the Lombards have some genetic effect in my area? Yes, I'm sure they did. The operative question is how much. What all the proponents of this mass wave from Central Europe after the fall of Rome conveniently forget over and over again is that by their own reckoning, the Lombards and associated Germanic groups numbered 60,000 people, including women and children. Ancient peoples were wont to play fast and loose with numbers, but always, to my knowledge, to enlarge them. Plus, the proof is in the archaeology and the genetics. The largest number of Lombard castles lie in northeastern Italy, which was the first area in Italy which they subdued, and which they had to protect against incursions by the Slavs. Is it a coincidence that that is where the largest concentration of yDna R1b U-106 and I1 can be found? By comparison, the percentages in Toscana are under 10%.

    Unless the rest of northern and northwestern-central Italy was invaded by Lombard women, this "massive" wave from Central Europe to magically turn people more "northern" again didn't happen. If someone is going to try to prove it they're going to have to do more than propose a statistical model. They're going to have to show me that wave in the archaeology and the yDna.

    Lastly, most of these people conveniently forget the only IBD analysis done which looks at the issue of the impact of migrations on Europeans, and that is Ralph and Coop. The chart makes very clear what they reiterate again and again. No significant migration events changed the dna of Italians after about 400 B.C., other than some input from the Balkans. That nicely covers both the Gauls and the Greeks of Magna Graecia, btw.

    https://journals.plos.org/plosbiolog...l.pbio.1001555

    One of the charts. Not shown in this particular one, but mentioned in the paper, to the best of my recollection, is the fact that Turkish genes were also examined.



    Until one of these labs addresses it and does their own IBD analysis, and addresses the yDna disparities, and includes the archaeology and histories, I will remain unconvinced that "their" path is the correct one.
    I think it is also possible the Yamnaya and Minoan-like ancestry that pops up in Southern Italy, could have also been re-enforced by those Balkan migrations, who since the Bronze age had been a two-way of Yamnaya and Balkan/Aegean Neolithic groups. Thus, instead of a straight-line from the BA, it was also maintained by similar migrants into classical antiquity.



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    The fact that this isn't done from the primal perspective of the "excluded ethnics" in question leads me to some hope.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    I agree with you. But they seem to want to take it a step forward, where you will disconnect from feelings of pride. Since they want to disconnect identity and belonging all together.
    Thank you for stating the obvious, because it's apparently not obvious to some people. We're to teach and celebrate African ancestry and accomplishments, and those of Native Americans. It's only where Europeans are concerned that it's verboten.

    If I have to hear any more left-wing platitudes and double standards where all of this is concerned, I may lose my (late) lunch.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    I think it is also possible the Yamnaya and Minoan-like ancestry that pops up in Southern Italy, could have also been re-enforced by those Balkan migrations, who since the Bronze age had been a two-way of Yamnaya and Balkan/Aegean Neolithic groups. Thus, instead of a straight-line from the BA, it was also maintained by similar migrants into classical antiquity.


    This is already food for discussion. I'm convinced that the Single Grave Culture is founding for the Bell Beakers of NW Europe. And also for the Germanics. So it's not Celtic-Italic but Celtic-Italic-Germanic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northener View Post
    This is already food for discussion. I'm convinced that the Single Grave Culture is founding for the Bell Beakers of NW Europe. And also for the Germanics. So it's not Celtic-Italic but Celtic-Italic-Germanic.
    A gray area in my theory is where do Italics (particular tribes) fit into the equation. More aDNA will help resolve it.

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    I don't know why they even have to pick on this. To it seems like most people don't even care the ancient past. This is partly a way for these SJWs have another boogeyman to "fight", and pat themselves on the back and feel virtuous.

    If academics from these big labs are reading this, get over yourselves. You're not that important. Frankly, you're lucky anyone reads your papers at all. For example, the video I linked only had 45 views originally. Pathetic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    I don't know why they even have to pick on this. To it seems like most people don't even care the ancient past. This is partly a way for these SJWs have another boogeyman to "fight", and pat themselves on the back and feel virtuous.
    If academics from these big labs are reading this, get over yourselves. You're not that important. Frankly, you're lucky anyone reads your papers at all. For example, the video I linked only had 45 views originally. Pathetic.
    Unfortunately more people have an "Apricity" view of ethnicity and genetic history.

    They care about the past if it bolsters their sense of self-worth and the facts go their own way as usual.

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    "Race" is simply a category. Are categories real or invented? I would argue that categorization is simply a tool for sorting (and, hopefully, making sense) of data.

    Resolving everything down to an either/or (this or that) can be deceiving, to the degree that opposites define only the poles of a continuum.
    "I think Marija's 'kurgan hypothesis' has been magnificently vindicated by recent work." --Lord Colin Renfrew, 4/18/2018.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CrazyDonkey View Post
    "Race" is simply a category. Are categories real or invented? I would argue that categorization is simply a tool for sorting (and, hopefully, making sense) of data.

    Resolving everything down to an either/or (this or that) can be deceiving, to the degree that opposites define only the poles of a continuum.
    As said the categories are not given, but created. So a social product. Sorting is not some kind of neutral proces.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    A gray area in my theory is where do Italics (particular tribes) fit into the equation. More aDNA will help resolve it.
    There are more linguists who point at a long linguistic connection between (proto) Italic and Germanic.....Sometimes connected with Tumulus culture.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northener View Post
    There are more linguists who point at a long linguistic connection between (proto) Italic and Germanic.....Sometimes connected with Tumulus culture.
    I think this is the case as well.

    I think it is essential to understanding the variation among the various tribes. Specifically for the model I put forward, I think it is important to see what the Oscans looked like geneticly. Raveane et al 2022 models Apulians as 37% "aFrance", which is an indication there's certainly a "North western" influence, which i would attribute to Italic influence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northener View Post
    As said the categories are not given, but created. So a social product. Sorting is not some kind of neutral proces.
    But is that all they are? Being able to identify and recall threats (from predators, for instance) can be a key to survival. Certainly being able to draw apt distinctions is a benefit, although what is or is not "apt" can be debatable. In general, however, the apt are more likely to succeed, the inapt to fail and fall by the wayside. At minimum, languages are constructed upon instinctual frameworks.

    The "races" were, of course, formed by a divergence into, and isolation within, separate geographic zones, following the out-of-Africa migration. A convergence is now happening, however, as human populations increasingly mix.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post


    This guy helped co-author the Global Guidelines for Ancient DNA research.

    So if you think there is left-wing bias, you're absolutely right. They're upfront about it.

    I see the video only has 45 views currently. I don't think a lot of people know about this.

    According to what this man says, I should not have wasted my time and money on a DNA test, to discover things that are of no importance. At least it gives me a sad consolation: my country is not the only one where you have to listen to "politically correct" nonsense...

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    Quote Originally Posted by CrazyDonkey View Post
    But is that all they are? Being able to identify and recall threats (from predators, for instance) can be a key to survival. Certainly being able to draw apt distinctions is a benefit, although what is or is not "apt" can be debatable. In general, however, the apt are more likely to succeed, the inapt to fail and fall by the wayside. At minimum, languages are constructed upon instinctual frameworks.

    The "races" were, of course, formed by a divergence into, and isolation within, separate geographic zones, following the out-of-Africa migration. A convergence is now happening, however, as human populations increasingly mix.
    I guess the thing is where you 'draw the lines' there is no racial classification that is not arbitrary....nevertheless there is no second law of gravity....so racial classification is not a matter of science but is a social product.

    In a more diversified population like in the US this seems more a thing than in Europe itself.

    And racial classification in order to detect the real danger It's honest....nevertheless here lays the 'real danger' imo.......

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northener View Post
    I guess the thing is where you 'draw the lines' there is no racial classification that is not arbitrary....nevertheless there is no second law of gravity....so racial classification is not a matter of science but is a social product.

    In a more diversified population like in the US this seems more a thing than in Europe itself.

    And racial classification in order to detect the real danger It's honest....nevertheless here lays the 'real danger' imo.......
    Politicizing science is the true danger. People see through the narrative, and they discount what academic authority says. These "good intentions" foster a sense of anarchy, because it destroys reliable impartial standards. Like people trying to find "racism" in math, and physics. It is a stupid waste of time, in the opinion of many. These guidelines debase aDNA research.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Politicizing science is the true danger. People see through the narrative, and they discount what academic authority says. These "good intentions" foster a sense of anarchy, because it destroys reliable impartial standards. Like people trying to find "racism" in math, and physics. It is a stupid waste of time, in the opinion of many. These guidelines debase aDNA research.
    I think racial classifying is pseudo-science.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northener View Post
    I think racial classifying is pseudo-science.
    Well, if you go by out moded criteria, sure. But we have ways of decerning genetic variation between different with modern science. However, spinning it to pretend it doesn't exist for social-political reasons is pseudo-science.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Well, if you go by out moded criteria, sure. But we have ways of decerning genetic variation between different with modern science. However, spinning it to pretend it doesn't exist for social-political reasons is pseudo-science.
    Genotype is not phenotype, and it's the phenotype that is founding for racial classification.

    Wiki:
    A race is a categorization of humans based on shared physical or social qualities into groups generally viewed as distinct within a given society.[1]
    Classifications of that doesn't sound really scientific to me.....

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