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Thread: "disconnecting the link between (European) DNA and Identity and Belonging"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northener View Post
    Genotype is not phenotype, and it's the phenotype that is founding for racial classification.

    Wiki:


    Classifications of that doesn't sound really scientific to me.....
    Okay, but the thread is about modern genetics.

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    Using genetic science to differentiate your race, your tribe, your Y-DNA as superior in some way is an abuse of science. Using genetics to find a cure or a therapy of a disease the right use of science. Using genetic genealogy to arrest and convict a criminal is the right use of science.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    Using genetic science to differentiate your race, your tribe, your Y-DNA as superior in some way is an abuse of science. Using genetics to find a cure or a therapy of a disease the right use of science. Using genetic genealogy to arrest and convict a criminal is the right use of science.
    Nobody is arguing for genetics-based superiority. That's a red herring that people use in these kinds of discussions. There should be NO political narratives in natural science; just as 2+2=4 is neither left-wing nor right-wing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Nobody is arguing for genetics-based superiority. That's a red herring that people use in these kinds of discussions. There should be NO political narratives in natural science; just as 2+2=4 is neither left-wing nor right-wing.
    in theory yes. but why is it that as soon as you ask for the specifics, for example what those different marks are that characterize different races, you'll get deafening silence?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailchu View Post
    in theory yes. but why is it that as soon as you ask for the specifics, for example what those different marks are that characterize different races, you'll get deafening silence?
    What specifics do you want? Also, what silence? I already showed you a global PCA. I'd say the clustering of Europeans, East Asians, and SSA at three polarized positions is sufficient for classification of "race" if you want to call it that. The bottom line is that people ARE different based on genetic variation, I think you need to accept that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    How about a more sophisticated view of population genetic differences in recent times?

    Things aren't as simple as you want them to be so you can try to get people in "gotcha" questions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    What specifics do you want? Also, what silence? I already showed you a global PCA. I'd say the clustering of Europeans, East Asians, and SSA at three polarized positions is sufficient for classification of "race" if you want to call it that. The bottom line is that people ARE different based on genetic variation, I think you need to accept that.
    sure, but most of those snp's aren't relevant for phenotypic variation. it has already been mentioned several times how humans can be categorized into races based on differences in appearance but also other things. i want to know what kind of races we are talking about, and what traits exactly are the hallmarks of those racial groupings.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailchu View Post
    sure, but most of those snp's aren't relevant for phenotypic variation. it has already been mentioned several times how humans can be categorized into races based on differences in appearance but also other things. i want to know what kind of races we are talking about, and what traits exactly are the hallmarks of those racial groupings.
    I don't understand the point, or how that changes the fact that you can observe the very obvious genetic distance between these macro-groups. How does this apply to the OP?

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    Again, I don't understand the point you are making about phenotype. Just because these two birds look the same doesn't negate the fact they are different species.

    https://blog.frontiersin.org/2019/11...fferent-genes/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    I don't understand the point, or how that changes the fact that you can observe the very obvious genetic distance between these macro-groups. How does this apply to the OP?
    so you would, even if there wasn't a single snp in a coding gene region, still group people into different racial groups based on the non-coding snp's?

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Northener View Post
    That's a clear overview what is wrong with it? Not speaking about the labels, but about the content, is the "nested subset" wrong?
    The last picture is rather correct except it masks the autonome later mutations lived by every group after what seems in some way a separation (before later re-crossings). Perhaps these late evolutions send only light changes. But I may do mistake?
    That said, when a person writes or says something, I try to appreciate what he writes or says, without taking in account the political label put on him. So accept or discard or say: it's a pack of contradictions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Again, I don't understand the point you are making about phenotype. Just because these two birds look the same doesn't negate the fact they are different species.

    https://blog.frontiersin.org/2019/11...fferent-genes/
    phenotype in biology doesn't only include physical appearance.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Also, who cares if very few SNPs are associated with phenotype? The difference exists, does it not? Maybe even small changes have big implications. Just like moving a single decimal out of place in software coding could cause the entire program to fail, despite hundreds of thousands of lines of code. The difference between Humans and chimps is only 4%. Does that change the fact that we are radically different from them? We share 50% genetic similarity with bananas...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailchu View Post
    so you would, even if there wasn't a single snp in a coding gene region, still group people into different racial groups based on the non-coding snp's?
    Non-coding SNP's present the advantage not to be influenced by recent natural selection pressure.

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    4 members found this post helpful.
    @Alichu, you miss the point as usual.

    You should go to a native American reserve or a BLM rally and tell them to abandon their identity because of genetic difference to Europeans is 0.1%. Lets see if you even come back.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Also, who cares if very few SNPs are associated with phenotype? The difference exists, does it not? Maybe even small changes have big implications. Just like moving a single decimal out of place in software coding could cause the entire program to fail, despite hundreds of thousands of lines of code. The difference between Humans and chimps is only 4%. Does that change the fact that we are radically different from them? We share 50% genetic similarity with bananas...
    if categorization into different racial groups wouldn't be based on those phenotypic variations, or if they didn't have an association with certain phenotypic variations, why would you even bother creating those racial groups?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailchu View Post
    if categorization into different racial groups wouldn't be based on those phenotypic variations, or if they didn't have an association with certain phenotypic variations, why would you even bother creating those racial groups?
    Who says they don't? You already observed the fact that there is some small difference, and I pointed out to you that we are merely 4% different from an entirely different species.

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    3 members found this post helpful.
    To say that "phenotype", meaning "appearance", is the foundation for a genetic "sorting" of human populations into "races", or the more acceptable "breeding populations", is a complete misunderstanding of modern genetics.

    First of all, "phenotype", although commonly used on the internet to mean pigmentation, hair type, facial features etc., is technically not accurate. Phenotypes are the observable physical and behavioral traits which are an expression of the genotype. Blood type is a phenotype, so are hormone levels etc.

    Second of all, alleles which code for physical appearance are a tiny percentage of the entire human genome.

    When modern geneticists "sort" human populations, they DO NOT use the tiny percentage of alleles which code for "appearance". They use all of them, or at least hundreds, and hundreds of thousands of them.

    When you look at the PCAs which use hundreds of thousands or in some cases millions of snps to plot different populations, it is abundantly clear that there are indeed human populations which have been separated for so long from one another that they have developed different characteristics.

    That is true whether some people like it or not.

    If someone wants to interpret those differences as meaning one population is superior to another that's their intellectual and moral deficiency. We can't pervert reality or scientific truth because some people are going to twist it to their purposes, nor should we pervert reality because some people will get their feelings hurt.

    One of the saddest consequences of this kind of thinking is that the undeniable differences between breeding populations in terms of disease risks, reaction to medications etc., have been put on the back burner because scientists are no longer even supposed to mention the fact that such differences exist.

    Honestly, do some of you people do any science reading at all?

    It's gotten to the point that Razib Khan has been called a "Nazi" because he said that the average woman does not have the upper body strength of men and therefore there are some physical things most women can't do.

    What is it, btw, in the left-wing psyche which turns every difference of opinion into an opportunity to accuse holders of the opposing view of being genocidal maniacs, oor at least unfeeling tools of capitalism. It cheapens what genocide really means, and as for me it ensures I will pay absolutely no attention to anything that person says.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Who says they don't?
    don't know? you? i asked for specific differences in phenotype between racial groups. if they are based on phenotypic variation or have an association with it there has to be something like this. you implied that this isn't important at first.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    To say that "phenotype", meaning "appearance", is the foundation for a genetic "sorting" of human populations into "races", or the more acceptable "breeding populations", is a complete misunderstanding of modern genetics.

    First of all, "phenotype", although commonly used on the internet to mean pigmentation, hair type, facial features etc., is technically not accurate. Phenotypes are the observable physical and behavioral traits which are an expression of the genotype. Blood type is a phenotype, so are hormone levels etc.

    Second of all, alleles which code for physical appearance are a tiny percentage of the entire human genome.

    When modern geneticists "sort" human populations, they DO NOT use the tiny percentage of alleles which code for "appearance". They use all of them, or at least hundreds, and hundreds of thousands of them.

    When you look at the PCAs which use hundreds of thousands or in some cases millions of snps to plot different populations, it is abundantly clear that there are indeed human populations which have been separated for so long from one another that they have developed different characteristics.

    That is true whether some people like it or not.

    Indeed, nevertheless a sorting of the 'genotype' as can be seen for example on an a PCA doesn't say much about the physical appearance (phenotype).....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    To say that "phenotype", meaning "appearance", is the foundation for a genetic "sorting" of human populations into "races", or the more acceptable "breeding populations", is a complete misunderstanding of modern genetics.

    First of all, "phenotype", although commonly used on the internet to mean pigmentation, hair type, facial features etc., is technically not accurate. Phenotypes are the observable physical and behavioral traits which are an expression of the genotype. Blood type is a phenotype, so are hormone levels etc.

    Second of all, alleles which code for physical appearance are a tiny percentage of the entire human genome.
    thanks for explaining it a bit better to Jovialis.

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    When modern geneticists "sort" human populations, they DO NOT use the tiny percentage of alleles which code for "appearance". They use all of them, or at least hundreds, and hundreds of thousands of them.

    When you look at the PCAs which use hundreds of thousands or in some cases millions of snps to plot different populations, it is abundantly clear that there are indeed human populations which have been separated for so long from one another that they have developed different characteristics.

    That is true whether some people like it or not.
    perhaps that is the case. it's still a step away from creating racial groupings. and all i did was ask, if someone wanted to create racial groups, what groups would we be talking about and what kind of differences in characteristics would they be trying to capture and explain?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailchu View Post
    don't know? you? i asked for specific differences in phenotype between racial groups. if they are based on phenotypic variation or have an association with it there has to be something like this. you implied that this isn't important at first.
    Don't put words in my mouth. You're the one who is hung up on reality.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailchu View Post
    thanks for explaining it a bit better to Jovialis.



    perhaps that is the case. it's still a step away from creating racial groupings. and all i did was ask, if someone wanted to create racial groups, what groups would we be talking about and what kind of differences in characteristics would they be trying to capture and explain?
    I'm starting to wonder if you're even capable of reading English. I already told you small differences can have big implications, including SNPs related to phenotype.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northener View Post
    Indeed, nevertheless a sorting of the 'genotype' as can be seen for example on an a PCA doesn't say much about the physical appearance (phenotype).....
    Yes, all you need is to not be blind, deaf, and dumb IRL to decern physical differences among those groups. How did that happen? Magic? Did they just one day decide to identify with having physical difference and it was granted to them by the tooth fairy?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    I'm starting to wonder if you're even capable of reading English. I already told you small differences can have big implications, including SNPs related to phenotype.
    His underlying question is real imo, a place on a pca based on the genotype doesn't reveal much about the appearance c.q. phenotype in casu.

    An recent example. I cluster in the PCA's along the ancient Anglo-Saxons and nowadays Danes....

    Questions.
    Do the ancient Anglo-Saxons and modern Danes represent a certain race, with obviously common features in the phenotype?
    When this is the case, I have a second question: does my place on a pca mean that I share that phenotype even race?

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