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Thread: "disconnecting the link between (European) DNA and Identity and Belonging"

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    You can tell the difference between a puddle, a lake, the sea, and the ocean. So too is the comparison of genetic distances relative to one another.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    You could even call them caucusoid. Yes, you can sub-divide them in to Europeans and Middle Easterners, and then sub divide them further. Based on admixture rates of source components.
    I always wondered, since Dzudzuana aka Paleolithic Caucasian was proposed as the "core of west Eurasian ancestry", could that help confirm "Caucasian" as an appropriate term? It seems to me they are the centrum of the "Caucasoid race" augmented by other paleolithic people on the peripheries, giving rise to the source populations of Europeans and Middle easterners.


    Basal Eurasian samples are all that is needed to verify this. It is called the "holy grail" of aDNA for a reason.


    I sincerely hope that this pre-print wasn't abandoned due to pressure from the politically correct woke guidelines, and peer-reviewers this thread is based on...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northener View Post
    Allichu when arguments fail the labels appear, mark my words!
    the fact that he believes beeing "100% european" would have any relevance and that someone like this can't look foreign in the netherlands makes it clear that he is a very special kind of troll. he never had arguments.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northener View Post
    Yes and I go even a step further. The genetic differences at these measures exist within Europe.

    The vague thing is that you recognize an European race, but not an 'Anglo-Danish' race.

    The only difference is zoom in or zoom out. Isn't it?
    i think Jovialis doesn't recognize a european race, but rather a geographically defined subset of westeurasians. simply based on FST europeans do not form a closed genetical group.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailchu View Post
    i think Jovialis doesn't recognize a european race, but rather a geographically defined subset of westeurasians. simply based on FST europeans do not form a closed genetical group.
    I think I've been clear, Europeans are a sub-set of Caucasians (i.e. West Eurasian) there are subsets within it. Near eastern people are another sub-set of Caucasians, with sub-sets within them.

    Based on genetics, please at least read my posts.
    Last edited by Jovialis; 20-09-22 at 03:29.

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    @Alichu, how are Europeans not a close cluster? You can see it with your own eyes.


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    Thomas Booth was behind the Cheddar Man thing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    I always wondered, since Dzudzuana aka Paleolithic Caucasian was proposed as the "core of west Eurasian ancestry", could that help confirm "Caucasian" as an appropriate term? It seems to me they are the centrum of the "Caucasoid race" augmented by other paleolithic people on the peripheries, giving rise to the source populations of Europeans and Middle easterners.


    Basal Eurasian samples are all that is needed to verify this. It is called the "holy grail" of aDNA for a reason.


    I sincerely hope that this pre-print wasn't abandoned due to pressure from the politically correct woke guidelines, and peer-reviewers this thread is based on...
    @Jovialis ... maybe S2949 is I2949 (Dzu2) ... I noticed that sometimes ENA changes the “I” with the “S”.

    … They’re developing new methods for extracting extra SNPs from Ancient DNA, … they like ‘Twist’.

    Comparing two new methods vs an old one:
    the coverage is very low, I’m not posting Shotgun, it goes around 20%, but the results look too different.

    … feel free to delete this post, the assignment of the sample is only based on assumptions :)

    Code:
    S2949_TWIST,22.41,1.91,0,0,6.01,25.50,7.56,0,21.91,0,14.71,0
    S2949_ARBOR,32.70,0,0,0,10.13,26.41,5.62,0,20.85,0,4.29,0
    S2949_1240k,22.99,0,0,0,16.77,25.64,3.51,0,19.99,0,10.37,0.73

    https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/vi...983?show=reads

    https://reich.hms.harvard.edu/sites/...-files/2_0.pdf


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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    To me a race means a dramatic genetic difference. I wouldn't say they're so different from Bavarians, for example. But they're dramatically different from Australian aboriginals. I would say they are different enough from southern Italians, Greeks, Albanians, Iberians, Russians, etc to be a sub-set within Europeans.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    You can tell the difference between a puddle, a lake, the sea, and the ocean. So too is the comparison of genetic distances relative to one another.
    That stays rather vague. Without sharp definitions, criteria, limits, there is much room to call something a race (or not).

    That is at his best a kind of pseudo science and at his worst a Box of Pandora.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Lmao vagueness? I'm giving you concrete examples and criteria. Where do you think these phenotypes came about? It was the mixing of these source populations.
    This is a pseudo-science?



    Ancestral genomic contributions to complex traits in contemporary Europeans: Current Biology (cell.com)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    They're a sub-set of West Eurasians, because they aren't composed of radically different components that East Asians, and SSA are composed of. Who are "races", sub-species, of themselves. They also don't have admixture with the various archaic humans that they have (i.e. possibly homo erectus, homo naledi that SSA groups may have)

    Southern Europeans aren't a different "race" because they're composed of the same components that Northern Europeans also have, but they are at different proportions. Do I really have to explain the last 10 years of genetic research to you?

    Do you think East Asians, and SSA like the Sans are composed of similar ancestral populations? I don't believe you are that ignorant to say so:






    Bumping this post, to better answer your phenotype question.

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    That's the ancestral contribution that is not the same as racial classification.

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    You can demonstrate how people in Europe are descended from 3-4 source populations in a dynamic exclusive to the region to form their genotype, and phenotype. You can show that differences in the continent are due to different rates of admixture based on those populations. You can demonstrate that relative and comparable to other people in the world, they cluster tightly on a PCA.

    But still with a straight face, people will tell you there is no genetic proof for the concept of "race" or "sub-grouping", whatever you want to call it for Europeans, or is it all people? Or maybe all people except for Europeans?

    Quote Originally Posted by Northener View Post
    That's the ancestral contribution that is not the same as racial classification.


    See what I mean.

    let's play the word game than ;)

    European ancestry formed in prehistoric and historic times is a biological reality.

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    No identity and belonging...

    What a pathetic joke!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    You can demonstrate how people in Europe are descended from 3-4 source populations in a dynamic exclusive to the region to form their genotype, and phenotype. You can show that differences in the continent are due to different rates of admixture based on those populations. You can demonstrate that relative and comparable to other people in the world, they cluster tightly on a PCA.

    But still with a straight face, people will tell you there is no genetic proof for the concept of "race" or "sub-grouping", whatever you want to call it for Europeans, or is it all people? Or maybe all people except for Europeans?





    See what I mean.

    let's play the word game than ;)

    European ancestry formed in prehistoric and historic times is a biological reality.
    It's no word game. It is something different.

    I don't deny the differences, the biological reality.

    But founding, contribution is something different than classification. That is no word game.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    @Jovialis ... maybe S2949 is I2949 (Dzu2) ... I noticed that sometimes ENA changes the “I” with the “S”.

    … They’re developing new methods for extracting extra SNPs from Ancient DNA, … they like ‘Twist’.

    Comparing two new methods vs an old one:
    the coverage is very low, I’m not posting Shotgun, it goes around 20%, but the results look too different.

    … feel free to delete this post, the assignment of the sample is only based on assumptions :)

    Code:
    S2949_TWIST,22.41,1.91,0,0,6.01,25.50,7.56,0,21.91,0,14.71,0
    S2949_ARBOR,32.70,0,0,0,10.13,26.41,5.62,0,20.85,0,4.29,0
    S2949_1240k,22.99,0,0,0,16.77,25.64,3.51,0,19.99,0,10.37,0.73

    https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/vi...983?show=reads

    https://reich.hms.harvard.edu/sites/...-files/2_0.pdf

    Maybe the supplement could be able to verify it.

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    The basic point is if someone don't qualify exactly what race then the definitions and criteria are not sharp....

    You call race a 'dramatic genetic difference' that definition is quit broad. Because when is something dramatic different?

    And then you end up with very subjective racial classifications.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northener View Post
    The basic point is if you don't qualify exactly what race is and therefore your definitions and criteria are not sharp....

    You call race a 'dramatic genetic difference' that definition is quit broad. Because when is something dramatic different?

    And then you end up with very subjective racial classifications.
    I don't care what benighted people from a hundred years ago concluded with their limited means. I am talking about the here and now, and we can clearly see that the genotype and phenotype of modern-day Europeans comes from these ancestral populations. Also, I already have stated many times, you can call it whatever you want. The fact of the matter is Europeans in various forms are a biological reality, not an arbitrary social construct. They do have a sense of identity and belonging, and aDNA does not negate that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    I don't care what benighted people from hundred years ago concluded with their limited means. I am talking about the here and now, and we can clearly see that the genotype and phenotype of modern-day Europeans comes from these ancestral populations. Also, I already have stated many times, you can call it whatever you want. The fact of the matter is Europeans in various forms are a biological reality, not an arbitrary social construct.
    That can be true. Nevertheless this answer doesn't solve the question of the sharpness in definition. Race as an arbitrary social construct is the immediate result of this (the vagueness).

    I can state-even with scientific prove- that the Anglo-Danish cluster of me is 'dramatically different' from the South Italian cluster of you.

    Or do you deny this 'biologic reality'?

    And of course we stand in phenotype on the shoulders of our ancestors, but that's another chapter.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northener View Post
    That can be true. Nevertheless this answer doen't solve the question of the sharpness in definition. Race as an arbitrary social construct is the immediate result of this (the vagueness).

    I can state-even with scientific prove- that the Anglo-Danish cluster of me is 'dramatically different' from the South Italian cluster of you.

    Or do you deny this 'biologic reality'?

    And of course we stand in phenotype on the shoulders of our ancestors, but that's another chapter.
    Of course we are different, did you miss all of the admixture charts I posted? But we still exist! Do we not?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Of course we are different, but we still exist! Do we not?
    May be even 'dramatically different' (as I say at home towards my wife: 'toujours dramatique'), and may be that is a biological reality too.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northener View Post
    May be even 'dramatically different' (as I say at home towards my wife: 'toujours dramatique'), and may be that is a biological reality too.....
    Of course it is, the difference is quantifiable. You can classify yourself from me however you want, but the fact of the matter is, aDNA does not negate our respective sense of identity and belonging to where we come from.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Of course it is, the difference is quantifiable. You can classify yourself from me however you want, but the fact of the matter is, aDNA does not negate our respective sense of identity and belonging to where we come from.
    Some make even that to a 'biological reality' no joke.

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    @Northerner

    I have already articulated to great lengths the ethnogenesis of my people. I have a strong sense of who I am, do you? Or do you follow what the global guidelines say?

    Southern Italian Ethnogenesis (My theory) - Page 8 (eupedia.com)

    I'm happy to say I have a strong affinity to the Ancient Greeks. Which is supported by studies like Raveane et al. 2022, as well as my own analysis. I know a lot of Northern Europeans purported they did back in the 19th century. Even Hitler sought to find a connection with them. Why is that?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    @Northerner

    I have already articulated to great lengths the ethnogenesis of my people. I have a strong sense of who I am, do you? Or do you follow what the global guidelines say?

    Southern Italian Ethnogenesis (My theory) - Page 8 (eupedia.com)

    I'm happy to say I have a strong affinity to the Ancient Greeks. I know a lot of Northern Europeans purported they did back in the 19th century. Even Hitler sought to find a connection with them. Why is that?
    In my case it's ancestral wise quit clear basically an Anglo-Saxon offshoot. That is by fare the major component.

    So from the Saxon pirates that scummed the North Sea in the very early middle ages.

    Do I like this heritage? Yes, the sea, freeborn mentality, bit pirate-blunt, I like. But of course with some shadow sides: they were not for nothing named after big knives (*sahsa).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    @Northerner

    I have already articulated to great lengths the ethnogenesis of my people. I have a strong sense of who I am, do you? Or do you follow what the global guidelines say?

    Southern Italian Ethnogenesis (My theory) - Page 8 (eupedia.com)

    I'm happy to say I have a strong affinity to the Ancient Greeks. I know a lot of Northern Europeans purported they did back in the 19th century. Even Hitler sought to find a connection with them. Why is that?
    And the *sasha explanation is may be the part Hitler liked, in no time they were the rulers all around the North Sea and the Channel.

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