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Thread: E-V13 men as carriers of "Roman Imperial" Admixture

  1. #26
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    Also that has nothing to do with "Imperial Roman" Admixture being a legitimate term. Those people are merely a cohort, albeit a large one in those times. Nevertheless, C6 was present, and the fact that C5 and C4 die away is implicat that C6 is a native central southern European population according to the Antonio 2019 study.

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    Quote Originally Posted by enter_tain View Post
    What are you using as a proxy for "Near Eastern"? The whole point of the paper was to show these large scale movements.
    Code:
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    Samples that are more Near Eastern usually score high Iran etc.

    E-V13 sample from Bulgaria 400 AD is not Near Eastern or Anatolian but has a typical Iron Age Thracian profile. Same with E-V13 sample from Nish which is similar to some Southern Illyrians / Macedonians.


    I am aware that such movements occurred but you're quoting a Serbian paper and they could be exaggerating.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Did you read the part that said they left no impact for either area?
    Yeah, which I'm doubting in OP. In Albania/Croatia, the medieval samples clearly plot more "southeastern" than Iron Age.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arbanoi View Post
    Code:
    TUR_Barcin_N,0.1175998,0.180118,0.0035312,-0.101158,0.0510443,-0.0483875,-0.0043582,-0.0069334,0.0362287,0.0807473,0.0079718,0.0118803,-0.0234545,0.0004691,-0.0419807,-0.0101913,0.0233091,0.0019866,0.0136954,-0.0097489,-0.0142249,0.0057723,-0.0041232,-0.0031658,-0.0043437
    BRA_LapaDoSanto_9600BP,0.050765,-0.3095332,0.1206032,0.098515,-0.1156522,-0.017626,-0.284645,-0.3400012,-0.0136212,-0.0184422,0.002241,-0.003267,0.0004162,0.017478,-0.0065688,0.0064438,0.006493,-0.001267,0.0026898,0.003727,-0.0010482,0.007963,-0.002662,-0.0043378,0.001413
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    Levant_PPNB,0.072847,0.1639064,-0.0316026,-0.1361132,0.0332986,-0.0645352,-0.0134426,-0.0147684,0.0741604,0.03601,0.0188046,-0.0150764,0.035738,0.0025596,-0.0217696,0.006099,0.0098048,-0.0013176,-0.0047264,0.0188088,-0.001797,0.0071472,0.0008872,-0.0056874,-0.0037602
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    Samples that are more Near Eastern usually score high Iran etc.

    E-V13 sample from Bulgaria 400 AD is not Near Eastern or Anatolian but has a typical Iron Age Thracian profile. Same with E-V13 sample from Nish which is similar to some Southern Illyrians / Macedonians.


    I am aware that such movements occurred but you're quoting a Serbian paper and they could be exaggerating.
    I'm talking about West Anatolian, not Syrian or Caucaus people. The area around Constantinople.

    If you use Izmir Byzantine E-V13, he serves as a decent proxy for people that came after him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by enter_tain View Post
    I'm talking about West Anatolian, not Syrian or Caucaus people. The area around Constantinople.

    If you use Izmir Byzantine E-V13, he serves as a decent proxy for people that came after him.
    I haven't tried with Izmir but it could not be accurate due to other overlapping components but I will try. Usually when samples score really high Iran something is off, although such minor components could of existed from before. Some of these Trogir Byzantine samples found in Croatia score it minor + some Levant and cluster more or less like Balkan populations interesting enough. There is one outlier that is extremely North-East clusters with South Slavs and another Roman sample outlier clustering with South Slavs. Other Roman period samples I have seen do not show much admixture and cluster west of me. Makes me think these Trogir samples are possibly locals + minor East Med. Although I am not sure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by enter_tain View Post
    Yeah, which I'm doubting in OP. In Albania/Croatia, the medieval samples clearly plot more "southeastern" than Iron Age.
    Medieval samples and post medieval samples from Albania plot just east of some of the samples found in Iron Age Macedonia and Albania, they are definitely not more southern as a whole, and those medieval samples are just few samples, one cannot really argue they are represantive of entire medieval Albania when they are just 3 samples. In fact modern Albanians are more north than many of these samples.







    Of course it depends on what PCA Maps you use but never seen these samples more North than Albanians as a whole. Just more West. And that also depends on the PCA Map. In this one PostMedieval Albania sample touches Bronze Age Macedonia and Medieval Albania, Medieval Albania touches Ancient Macedonia and one of them cluster next to Iron Age Northern Albania.

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    Such as when I add these samples raw onto the G25 PCA Map instead of scaled it gives different results, East-West difference is not that huge in that case which fits more with calculator distance IMO.

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    Here I added myself onto that PCA Map


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    I also don't understand what is the dislike for E-V13, because some of these desperate trolls try to link it to some proto-Albanians from the Eastern Balkans ? Isn't it funny how they have no evidence for that. One dude on TheApricity pulled a theory out of his ass in which he claimed proto-Albanians were R1b+E-V13 despite we don't have a single R1b+-E-V13 so far, we already got R1b branches found in Albania together with J2b2 so suggests these were together since the Bronze Age / Iron Age in Albanians. And Albanian is an Indo European language, meanwhile E-V13 is not liinked to the steppes nor to proto-Dacians or proto-Thracians but was most likely picked up.

    We should find some in Albania IMO. Maybe it was part of proto-Albanians as a minor clade. Or it could of been picked up. The same process happened in the entire Balkans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by enter_tain View Post
    Some delusional people are making everyone and everything Thracian. Apparently Thracians colonized Anatolia and I wasn't even aware.
    Yeah, we had that, you don't know a lot of things, which is part of the problem:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bithynia

    The main reason why we haven't found a lot of E-V13 in the Iron Age is two-fold:
    1) We have the relevant cultures which used inhumation (as well) not sampled (Mezocsat, Basarabi, Ferigile, Babadag - only Psenichevo, and there we had a lot of E-V13). Only Mezocsat being sampled, but only females and one actual Cimmerian/steppe derived individual which was an outlier of this group of local females autosomally.
    2) A large portion of the Thracian cultures can't be sampled, because the Proto-Thracian Gva group and later Northern Dacians did regularly cremate. They did so for the time span of three millennia in their core region at the Upper Tisza/North Carpathians:
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...l=1#post660017

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Yeah, we had that, you don't know a lot of things, which is part of the problem:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bithynia

    The main reason why we haven't found a lot of E-V13 in the Iron Age is two-fold:
    1) We have the relevant cultures which used inhumation (as well) not sampled (Mezocsat, Basarabi, Ferigile, Babadag - only Psenichevo, and there we had a lot of E-V13). Only Mezocsat being sampled, but only females and one actual Cimmerian/steppe derived individual which was an outlier of this group of local females autosomally.
    2) A large portion of the Thracian cultures can't be sampled, because the Proto-Thracian G�va group and later Northern Dacians did regularly cremate. They did so for the time span of three millennia in their core region at the Upper Tisza/North Carpathians:
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...l=1#post660017
    The issue is not my lack of knowledge, but the fact you consider pseudo-science knowledge. Those people were Phrygians, not Thracians.

    Their attribution as Thracians is clearly nonsense:

    "No trace of their original language has been preserved, but Herodotus describes them as related to the tribes of Thracian extraction like the Phrygians and Armenians, whose languages may form part of the Paleo-Balkan group (although this is not certain and the theory is not universally accepted)."

    Armenians and Phrygians are not Thracians. Phrygians are Hellenoids, not Thracians.

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    The evidence is pretty straightforward, there are only a few scholars which cast doubt.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    It's a subclade found in Thracians. With the Thracian colonization happening it makes it even a stronger hypothesis. I am not saying that the subclade being Northern Greek is out of question but it's more likely to be Thracian. Let's look at the facts and speculate.

    Even if you turn out to be right, it's merely luck. I gave my analysis.
    It's not going to be luck if I turn out to be right. We know that Greeks founded, settled and inhabited Nicaea. They were speaking Greek in that city. And autosomically they were Aegean peoples. Not Anatolian or Balkan. We have very few Ancient Greek specimens. Only four samples from mainland Greece to be exact. And that's as early as the Bronze Age. Moreover, the modern Greeks have a good dose of E-V13. All localities they inhabited have E-V13. So I wouldn't call a clade Thracian just because we found this clade in Thracian territory and not in mainland Ancient Greece (yet). I find it that it would be a remarkable coincidence that 2 of the 3 clades we have from a Nicaea are actually Thracians and not Greeks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dianatomia View Post
    It's not going to be luck if I turn out to be right. We know that Greeks founded, settled and inhabited Nicaea. They were speaking Greek in that city. And autosomically they were Aegean peoples. Not Anatolian or Balkan. We have very few Ancient Greek specimens. Only four samples from mainland Greece to be exact. And that's as early as the Bronze Age. Moreover, the modern Greeks have a good dose of E-V13. All localities they inhabited have E-V13. So I wouldn't call a clade Thracian just because we found this clade in Thracian territory and not in mainland Ancient Greece (yet). I find it that it would be a remarkable coincidence that 2 of the 3 clades we have from a Nicaea are actually Thracians and not Greeks.
    The question really is when the clearly (later) Greek E-V13 lineages, which are not Albanian, Vlach and Slavic derived, did enter the Greek population and gene pool. At one time, or at different times. Early or late. That's really something we will only know with sufficient sampling, because there might have been regional and ethnic differences within Greece. Obviously those which were more influenced by Channelled Ware and being closer to the Thracians are more likely to have had it earlier, but even that is just an educated guess, because in theory, especailly the male Greek lineages could have been keen to isolate themselves from foreigners. Yet we know that foreigners lived in Greek cities, like slaves, mercenaries, workers - even in Sparta there were the Perioeci. Some of these might be considered non-Greek migrants - but again, we don't know their exact ethnic composition and how much of them were local Greeks or foreigners.

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    Country: Netherlands



    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    The question really is when the clearly (later) Greek E-V13 lineages, which are not Albanian, Vlach and Slavic derived, did enter the Greek population and gene pool. At one time, or at different times. Early or late. That's really something we will only know with sufficient sampling, because there might have been regional and ethnic differences within Greece. Obviously those which were more influenced by Channelled Ware and being closer to the Thracians are more likely to have had it earlier, but even that is just an educated guess, because in theory, especailly the male Greek lineages could have been keen to isolate themselves from foreigners. Yet we know that foreigners lived in Greek cities, like slaves, mercenaries, workers - even in Sparta there were the Perioeci. Some of these might be considered non-Greek migrants - but again, we don't know their exact ethnic composition and how much of them were local Greeks or foreigners.
    There surely were different populations within Greece. Yet I for one doubt that E-V13 was completely absent early on in the Greek peninsula. But I can't discard that it was more dominant in the Northern part. I wouldn't call it Thracian, because these carriers may simply have swept over the Balkans and mixed with early Thracian and early Greek as well as Illyrian speakers. The fact that Crete only has 10% is an indication that it came from the mainland. It must have come early, because no large migration is documented on the island. Only some 800.000 are believed to have inhabited mainland Greece during the Bronze Age. While there were 4 million people in Greece during the late Iron Age and Classical Age. Crete on the other hand has been known to be the island of 80 cities during the Bronze Age. The island was far more densely populated than mainland Greece during that time. E-V13 spread through Greece before the mainlands population explosion in the Iron Age.

  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    The evidence is pretty straightforward, there are only a few scholars which cast doubt.
    Mate, what are you talking about? Phrygians aren't Thracians. There is nothing to argue there.

    Clearly, Herotodus on that one specific example was talking out of his ass. Phrygians are not Armenians, and they're not Thracians.

  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dianatomia View Post
    There surely were different populations within Greece. Yet I for one doubt that E-V13 was completely absent early on in the Greek peninsula. But I can't discard that it was more dominant in the Northern part. I wouldn't call it Thracian, because these carriers may simply have swept over the Balkans and mixed with early Thracian and early Greek as well as Illyrian speakers. The fact that Crete only has 10% is an indication that, it came from the mainland. It must have come early, because no large migration is documented on the island. Only some 800.000 are believed to have inhabited mainland Greece during the Bronze Age. While there were 4 million people in Greece during the late Iron Age and Classical Age. Crete on the other hand has been known to be the island of 80 cities during the Bronze Age. The island was far more densely populated than mainland Greece during that time. E-V13 spread through Greece before the mainlands population explosion in the Iron Age.
    There was an "Aegean" hotzone of E-V13. That includes Greece, Bulgaria, West Turkey.

  18. #43
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    Country: Austria



    Quote Originally Posted by enter_tain View Post
    Mate, what are you talking about? Phrygians aren't Thracians. There is nothing to argue there.

    Clearly, Herotodus on that one specific example was talking out of his ass. Phrygians are not Armenians, and they're not Thracians.
    The Bosporan and Bithynian Thracians were no Phrygians.

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