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Thread: The diverse genetic origins of a Classical period Greek army

  1. #226
    Advisor Jovialis's Avatar
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    No question about it, you are a true Apulian, Salento.

  2. #227
    Regular Member Salento's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    No question about it, you are a true Apulian, Salento.
    Thanks Jovialis, ... more or less, you and I, and most Apulians ... we're all true Apulians :)
    🕷️

  3. #228
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by real expert View Post
    @Angela
    Some folks suffer from an identity crisis, hence they latch on to heritage they don't belong to, searching for greatness and glory they don't find in their own past. Besides, I devoured countless history books, and no serious historian ever suggested that Ancient Greeks or Romans were Nordic folks whatsoever. This Romans were Nordic stuff-is preposterous, pseudo, and revisionist history that isn't taken seriously by people who care about historical facts anyway. Nobody who reads primary sources and applies basic common sense would buy for a second this Ancient Greeks or Romans were German or Celtic-like myth. It actually doesn't take Ancient DNA studies to figure that out. The thing is, Ancient Roman or Greek history is cool. And therefore there are some people who begrudge modern Italians or Greeks for their rich heritage. It's a display of childish and weak behavior if you ask me. I can't speak for other countries, but in Germany, Romans are always associated with Italians, and Italians are viewed as the physical descendants of Rome. Anyway, anthro-forums attract plenty of weirdos in all varieties. This can be frustrating and tiring when having to deal with them, especially when discussing and interpreting Ancient DNA and its implication.
    I appreciate the comment. It is indeed frustrating and tiring dealing with the "weirdos" of all varieties which our "hobby" seems to attract. It's worse when they're not very bright. Sometimes it gets a bit too much.

    At least the one who wanted to send hit men against one of our past moderators is gone, and the one who was going to find our houses and shoot us for being race traitors, and I haven't gotten a vile, graphic, expletive filled woman hating pm in a while, so things could be worse. :)


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

  4. #229
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
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    3 members found this post helpful.
    For ihype02, who I'm sure is lurking here under a sock, from your beloved G25, my husband's results. I get scores of 4 and 5 to modern Northern Italians. Pretty good for samples which are 2400 years old.

    My husband's results:

    Distance to: AJF
    0.04531823 ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_1:I7221
    0.04762203 ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_1:I10952
    0.05186836 ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_1:I10945
    0.05667533 ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_1:I7217
    0.05794297 ITA_Sicily_Himera_409BCE:I7223
    0.05901178 ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_1:I10948
    0.06363278 ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_1:I7219
    0.06838625 ITA_Sicily_Himera_409BCE:I7224
    0.07130391 ITA_Sicily_Himera_409BCE:I7225
    0.07171759 ITA_Sicily_IA:I13128
    0.07199459 ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_1:I7218
    0.07855030 ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_2:I10946
    0.07925628 ITA_Sicily_IA:I13382
    0.07943664 ITA_Sicily_IA:I13384
    0.07977739 ITA_Sicily_IA:I13379
    0.08036500 ITA_Sicily_IA:I13389
    0.08045912 ITA_Sicily_IA:I13380
    0.08065951 ITA_Sicily_IA:I13391
    0.08070412 ITA_Sicily_IA:I13376
    0.08101950 ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_2:I10950
    0.08170738 ITA_Sicily_IA:I13390
    0.08432435 ITA_Sicily_IA:I13383
    0.08711623 ITA_Sicily_IA:I13387
    0.08789653 ITA_Sicily_IA:I13125
    0.08815566 ITA_Sicily_IA:I13392


    This seems damn close to me, for 2400 year old samples:


    Target: AJF
    Distance: 0.0273% / 0.02730348
    60.0 ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_1
    19.0 ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_5
    15.6 ITA_Sicily_IA
    5.4 ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_4


    And guess what? It doesn't include the sample you hate.

    Distance to: AJF
    0.03043160 77.00% ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_1:I10952 + 23.00% ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_5:I10951
    0.03444676 34.00% ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_5:I10951 + 66.00% ITA_Sicily_IA:I13128
    0.03459576 72.40% ITA_Sicily_Himera_409BCE:I7223 + 27.60% ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_5:I10951
    0.03486488 85.60% ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_1:I7221 + 14.40% ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_4:I10944
    0.03515676 84.40% ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_1:I10952 + 15.60% ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_4:I10944
    0.03633626 85.20% ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_1:I10952 + 14.80% ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_4:I10947
    0.03700532 37.60% ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_5:I10951 + 62.40% ITA_Sicily_IA:I13390
    0.03723753 74.00% ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_1:I7217 + 26.00% ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_5:I10951
    0.03778425 87.60% ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_1:I7221 + 12.40% ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_4:I10947
    0.03779039 36.60% ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_5:I10951 + 63.40% ITA_Sicily_IA:I13384
    0.03792650 37.00% ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_5:I10951 + 63.00% ITA_Sicily_IA:I13391
    0.03843227 36.60% ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_5:I10951 + 63.40% ITA_Sicily_IA:I13379
    0.03853037 88.40% ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_1:I7221 + 11.60% ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_3:I10949
    0.03869169 39.60% ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_5:I10951 + 60.40% ITA_Sicily_IA:I13125
    0.03974177 84.60% ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_1:I7221 + 15.40% ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_5:I10951
    0.03981440 73.40% ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_1:I10948 + 26.60% ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_5:I10951
    0.04025275 90.20% ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_1:I7221 + 9.80% ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_3:I10943
    0.04025600 76.40% ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_1:I7221 + 23.60% ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_2:I10946
    0.04027198 36.20% ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_5:I10951 + 63.80% ITA_Sicily_IA:I13382
    0.04038488 36.60% ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_5:I10951 + 63.40% ITA_Sicily_IA:I13389
    0.04048885 81.20% ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_1:I7217 + 18.80% ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_4:I10944
    0.04091768 79.00% ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_1:I10945 + 21.00% ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_5:I10951
    0.04110983 40.20% ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_5:I10951 + 59.80% ITA_Sicily_IA:I13394
    0.04152201 39.40% ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_5:I10951 + 60.60% ITA_Sicily_IA:I13392
    0.04211955 89.00% ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_1:I10952 + 11.00% ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_3:I10949
    Target: AJF
    Distance: 0.0273% / 0.02730348
    60.0 ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_1
    19.0 ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_5
    15.6 ITA_Sicily_IA
    5.4 ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_4

  5. #230
    Regular Member kingjohn's Avatar
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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Direct paternal line : mizrahi from damascus
    e-fgc7391
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-FGC7391/

  6. #231
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    For ihype02, who I'm sure is lurking here under a sock, from your beloved G25, my husband's results. I get scores of 4 and 5 to modern Northern Italians. Pretty good for samples which are 2400 years old.

    My husband's results:

    Distance to: AJF
    0.04531823 ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_1:I7221
    0.04762203 ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_1:I10952
    0.05186836 ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_1:I10945
    0.05667533 ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_1:I7217
    0.05794297 ITA_Sicily_Himera_409BCE:I7223
    0.05901178 ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_1:I10948
    0.06363278 ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_1:I7219
    0.06838625 ITA_Sicily_Himera_409BCE:I7224
    0.07130391 ITA_Sicily_Himera_409BCE:I7225
    0.07171759 ITA_Sicily_IA:I13128
    0.07199459 ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_1:I7218
    0.07855030 ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_2:I10946
    0.07925628 ITA_Sicily_IA:I13382
    0.07943664 ITA_Sicily_IA:I13384
    0.07977739 ITA_Sicily_IA:I13379
    0.08036500 ITA_Sicily_IA:I13389
    0.08045912 ITA_Sicily_IA:I13380
    0.08065951 ITA_Sicily_IA:I13391
    0.08070412 ITA_Sicily_IA:I13376
    0.08101950 ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_2:I10950
    0.08170738 ITA_Sicily_IA:I13390
    0.08432435 ITA_Sicily_IA:I13383
    0.08711623 ITA_Sicily_IA:I13387
    0.08789653 ITA_Sicily_IA:I13125
    0.08815566 ITA_Sicily_IA:I13392


    This seems damn close to me, for 2400 year old samples:


    Target: AJF
    Distance: 0.0273% / 0.02730348
    60.0 ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_1
    19.0 ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_5
    15.6 ITA_Sicily_IA
    5.4 ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_4


    And guess what? It doesn't include the sample you hate.

    Distance to: AJF
    0.03043160 77.00% ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_1:I10952 + 23.00% ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_5:I10951
    0.03444676 34.00% ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_5:I10951 + 66.00% ITA_Sicily_IA:I13128
    0.03459576 72.40% ITA_Sicily_Himera_409BCE:I7223 + 27.60% ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_5:I10951
    0.03486488 85.60% ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_1:I7221 + 14.40% ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_4:I10944
    0.03515676 84.40% ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_1:I10952 + 15.60% ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_4:I10944
    0.03633626 85.20% ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_1:I10952 + 14.80% ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_4:I10947
    0.03700532 37.60% ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_5:I10951 + 62.40% ITA_Sicily_IA:I13390
    0.03723753 74.00% ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_1:I7217 + 26.00% ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_5:I10951
    0.03778425 87.60% ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_1:I7221 + 12.40% ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_4:I10947
    0.03779039 36.60% ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_5:I10951 + 63.40% ITA_Sicily_IA:I13384
    0.03792650 37.00% ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_5:I10951 + 63.00% ITA_Sicily_IA:I13391
    0.03843227 36.60% ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_5:I10951 + 63.40% ITA_Sicily_IA:I13379
    0.03853037 88.40% ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_1:I7221 + 11.60% ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_3:I10949
    0.03869169 39.60% ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_5:I10951 + 60.40% ITA_Sicily_IA:I13125
    0.03974177 84.60% ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_1:I7221 + 15.40% ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_5:I10951
    0.03981440 73.40% ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_1:I10948 + 26.60% ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_5:I10951
    0.04025275 90.20% ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_1:I7221 + 9.80% ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_3:I10943
    0.04025600 76.40% ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_1:I7221 + 23.60% ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_2:I10946
    0.04027198 36.20% ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_5:I10951 + 63.80% ITA_Sicily_IA:I13382
    0.04038488 36.60% ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_5:I10951 + 63.40% ITA_Sicily_IA:I13389
    0.04048885 81.20% ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_1:I7217 + 18.80% ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_4:I10944
    0.04091768 79.00% ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_1:I10945 + 21.00% ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_5:I10951
    0.04110983 40.20% ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_5:I10951 + 59.80% ITA_Sicily_IA:I13394
    0.04152201 39.40% ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_5:I10951 + 60.60% ITA_Sicily_IA:I13392
    0.04211955 89.00% ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_1:I10952 + 11.00% ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_3:I10949
    Target: AJF
    Distance: 0.0273% / 0.02730348
    60.0 ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_1
    19.0 ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_5
    15.6 ITA_Sicily_IA
    5.4 ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_4

    It is a dogma that southern Italians allegedly are the only exception in Europe insofar they have, according to them, very little ancestry from the previous millennia, no matter what actual science and evidence say, because they take only G25 earnestly as if it were gospel.
    It's true that southern Italians aren't identical to any ancient pop, but they are darn close, and not only on a 2D PCA but also by genetic distance and the affinity to ancient Greek/Mycenaean samples have been noticed again and again in the literature, thus so far the evidence is overwhelmingly in favour of significant continuity (which of course doesn't mean 100% continuity, so to say we claim 100% identity is a strawman), and the explanation that it is "just a coincidence" because south Italy's previous inhabitants got "replaced by east meds", who then mixed with Germanic invaders, is really an explanation that borders more on fantasy than history.

    To be fair Hype's model was that south Italians are allegedly only 20-25% mixed with a caucasus-related pop compared to those Himera Greeks, though we must keep the record straight and recall that what Anthrogenica purports to have "discovered" is a replacement by "east meds" followed by another gene flow from north Europe or north Italy.

    At this point nothing will change their mind.

  7. #232
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    Anthrogenica posters think that North Italians are a mix of east Med people largely descended from freed Anatolian slaves, pulled north by Langobards and Romanized Provincials fleeing from the Danube provinces in Late Antiquity and the Early Middle Ages!

  8. #233
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
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    ^^I've said it more than once.

    Show me documentary evidence of a large scale migration of Northerners into, in this particular case, Calabria. Also show me the appropriate levels of Northern Ydna lineages to make that feasible.

    If you can't, then the hypothesis fails.

    As for fleeing people from outposts of the empire, even if we ignore the fact that there is no documentary evidence of huge numbers of people making the dangerous journey back to Italia, the genomes of the people making that journey would NOT HAVE BEEN "Northern". All these intellectually challenged people would have to do is look at the samples from Szolad. You can clearly see the Lombard samples. A detailed examination of the remaining "Romans" shows many are extremely "Greek like" i.e. like some Imperial Romans, and some are Tuscan like.

    A small group of these people would not change the genetic signature of the people then living in southern Italy, even if they were foolhardy enough to want to travel all the way down the boot to the toe instead of taking refuge in the north.

    It's all complete stupidity.

  9. #234
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Leopoldo Leone View Post
    It is a dogma that southern Italians allegedly are the only exception in Europe insofar they have, according to them, very little ancestry from the previous millennia, no matter what actual science and evidence say, because they take only G25 earnestly as if it were gospel.
    It's true that southern Italians aren't identical to any ancient pop, but they are darn close, and not only on a 2D PCA but also by genetic distance and the affinity to ancient Greek/Mycenaean samples have been noticed again and again in the literature, thus so far the evidence is overwhelmingly in favour of significant continuity (which of course doesn't mean 100% continuity, so to say we claim 100% identity is a strawman), and the explanation that it is "just a coincidence" because south Italy's previous inhabitants got "replaced by east meds", who then mixed with Germanic invaders, is really an explanation that borders more on fantasy than history.

    To be fair Hype's model was that south Italians are allegedly only 20-25% mixed with a caucasus-related pop compared to those Himera Greeks, though we must keep the record straight and recall that what Anthrogenica purports to have "discovered" is a replacement by "east meds" followed by another gene flow from north Europe or north Italy.

    At this point nothing will change their mind.
    To keep the record straight, I have never said nor meant to imply that there was 100% continuity anywhere in Italy since the first millennium B.C.,but this nonsense about replacement and then this fairy tale of mass Northern migration to someplace like Calabria, in particular, is an absurdity.

    He and the anthrogenica crowd love G25; well, I gave them a G25 analysis. He didn't think one sample should be used so I removed it.

    The Caucasus sample doesn't make the top 25 matches. While some of the 2 way results do use it, others, with similar distances, do not.

    Even results like these aren't good enough, neither for them nor for him, although in his case it's a function of a bias based on his own ethnicity.

    They dishonestly do analyses using only the Sicani. He nitpicks anything he can so he can ignore the clear implications of the data.

    He has a history here of trying in any way possible to deny Greek genetic influence in Southern Italy. Indeed, he tries to deny any continuity in Greece itself.

    If someone wants to state that, fine, go ahead and look like a biased fool, but you don't get to lie about results.

  10. #235
    Regular Member cybernautic's Avatar
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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Second of all what idiotic nonsense is this about 120166? Do you understand that this was the population of a Greek polis in Sicily? Of course they were Greeks! What should we expect? Poles???
    According to former TA admin Sikeliot/Tauromenion and similar folks ,yes thats what one
    should expect when talking about the descendants of Greek settlers in South Italy.



    The fact is that those people came as a folk migration, STAYED, and became ancestors of southern Italians. Do you understand that?
    Probably he will never understand.
    If the talk would be about Slavic or Albanian settlements in Medieval Mainland Greece instead of Greek ones in Ancient South Italy, i'm sure, he would.

    Your problem has always been, in post after post, that you don't want to acknowledge that the Greeks contributed a lot of ancestry to Southern Italians, and that you can't STAND the fact that the Greeks have an illustrious heritage, part of it forged in Southern Italy.

    My husband's ancestry is all from areas immediately adjacent to Greek settlements, and some of his people spoke Greek until 200 years ago. In isolated parts of the world language and genes are conserved. Educate yourself: look at a map of Calabria; it's perfect for that scenario.
    It seems some people who post online never learned anything in high scool or college about
    Classical Greek civilization and its expansions,colonies

  11. #236
    Moderator Pax Augusta's Avatar
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    3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vallicanus View Post
    Anthrogenica posters think that North Italians are a mix of east Med people largely descended from freed Anatolian slaves, pulled north by Langobards and Romanized Provincials fleeing from the Danube provinces in Late Antiquity and the Early Middle Ages!
    I will not go into that statement but it is worth mentioning that Anthrogenica posters, despite acting the role of experts, have defended to the last the eastern origin of the Etruscans by harassing all those who thought otherwise, when the conclusion that they were 'autochthonous' was the one that enjoyed the greatest consensus among scholars for more than 30 years. Hence, near-zero credibility.

    As for slaves, the equation migrants equals slaves is always made, but it is more complex. At some point, and rather early if one considers the chronology of the Roman imperial period, citizenship was granted to almost everyone in the Empire.

  12. #237
    Regular Member Stuvanè's Avatar
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    3 members found this post helpful.
    I had not yet compared my raw-data with these ancient 'Greek' ones

    Distance to: Dodecadk12bStuvanè
    6.30493458 Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_Cent-Europe:I10946
    6.80074996 Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_Cent-Europe:I10950
    10.05484958 Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_W-Europe_lc:I17870
    14.96215894 Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med:I20163
    15.09736401 Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I7223
    16.05556601 Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I7224
    17.38120249 Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13376
    18.68982343 Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I7218
    18.78719777 Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I10952
    18.92371792 Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I7217
    19.09835071 Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med:I20166
    19.56525492 Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13391
    19.57205150 Baucina_MtFalcone_Sicani_Med_lc:I13128
    19.83113965 Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I10945
    20.07192567 Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I10948
    20.29479983 Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med:I20168
    20.53694232 Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13392
    20.74228290 Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13379
    20.77070774 Baucina_MtFalcone_Sicani_Med:I13125
    20.90003589 Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I7225
    21.06369863 Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13390
    21.12534260 Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med_lc:I20162
    21.13204439 Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13387
    21.26052916 Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13382
    21.72169192 Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I17866

    Target: Dodecadk12bStuvanè
    Distance: 0.7475% / 0.74754303 | ADC: 0.25x RC
    55.2 Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_W-Europe_lc
    18.9 Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med
    15.0 Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med
    10.9 Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_Cent-Europe



    Target: Dodecadk12bStuvanè
    Distance: 0.2939% / 0.29393394
    35.1 Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_W-Europe_lc
    19.5 Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med
    16.4 Polizzello_Sicani_Med
    12.6 Himera_480_BC_Battle_NE-Europe_lc
    12.5 Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med
    3.4 Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med_lc
    0.5 Himera_480_BC_Battle_Caucasus_lc

    Distance to: Dodecadk12bStuvanè
    2.24944786 67.40% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I10948 + 32.60% Himera_480_BC_Battle_NE-Europe_lc:I10949
    2.38673347 31.00% Himera_480_BC_Battle_NE-Europe_lc:I10949 + 69.00% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I7218
    2.41310119 67.40% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_W-Europe_lc:I17870 + 32.60% Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med:I20168
    2.46916435 33.20% Himera_480_BC_Battle_NE-Europe:I10943 + 66.80% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I10948
    2.58234944 72.60% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_W-Europe_lc:I17870 + 27.40% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I7221
    2.68332225 31.60% Himera_480_BC_Battle_NE-Europe:I10943 + 68.40% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I7218
    2.85168549 31.00% Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I17866 + 69.00% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_W-Europe_lc:I17870
    2.90686571 33.00% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I10945 + 67.00% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_W-Europe_lc:I17870
    3.00723277 77.20% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_Cent-Europe:I10946 + 22.80% Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med:I20166
    3.35224097 31.20% Himera_480_BC_Battle_NE-Europe_lc:I10949 + 68.80% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I7217
    3.45127467 33.80% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I10952 + 66.20% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_W-Europe_lc:I17870
    3.53638841 70.00% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_W-Europe_lc:I17870 + 30.00% Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I17884
    3.58411347 66.60% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_W-Europe_lc:I17870 + 33.40% Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med:I20166
    3.59514698 70.20% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_W-Europe_lc:I17870 + 29.80% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I7219
    3.60409962 66.40% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_W-Europe_lc:I17870 + 33.60% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I7217
    3.61018900 31.80% Himera_480_BC_Battle_NE-Europe:I10943 + 68.20% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I7217
    3.81576082 27.60% Himera_480_BC_Battle_NE-Europe_lc:I10949 + 72.40% Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I7224
    3.97554951 28.00% Himera_480_BC_Battle_NE-Europe:I10943 + 72.00% Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I7224
    4.29728323 81.20% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_Cent-Europe:I10946 + 18.80% Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med:I20168
    4.33419951 31.60% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I10948 + 68.40% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_W-Europe_lc:I17870
    4.38408514 63.00% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_W-Europe_lc:I17870 + 37.00% Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I7224
    4.39126114 82.40% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_Cent-Europe:I10946 + 17.60% Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I17866
    4.41723708 33.80% Himera_480_BC_Battle_NE-Europe:I10943 + 66.20% Baucina_MtFalcone_Sicani_Med:I13125
    4.44152058 66.80% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_W-Europe_lc:I17870 + 33.20% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I7218
    4.52598177 85.20% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_Cent-Europe:I10946 + 14.80% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I7221

  13. #238
    Regular Member Wanderer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    What are the haplogroups?

  14. #239
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    Giorgia Meloni is half Sicilian and half Sardinian. She would probably cluster with the Sicani or a Himera 409 BCE sample on a PCA.

  15. #240
    Regular Member Francesco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Giorgia Meloni is half Sicilian and half Sardinian. She would probably cluster with the Sicani or a Himera 409 BCE sample on a PCA.
    Sicani were still pretty close to the sicilian bell beaker, right?

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Franceso: Here are the distances (Dodecad 12B) < 10 for the Sicani and Sicilian Bell Beaker I4930 (coordinates estimated from GEDMATCH Kit). So considering the Sicilian Beaker is 1600 years or more older than the Sicani sample, reasonable distances in my view. The other Sicani have distances > 10 to about 13.

    Distance to: Reitsema_etal_2022_I13394_IA_Sicily_Polizzello_Sic ani_Med
    10.07608555 Olade_etal_2018:I4930_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Sicily

    Distance to: Reitsema_etal_2022_I13386_IA_Sicily_Polizzello_Sic ani_Med
    8.79703927 Olade_etal_2018:I4930_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Sicily

    Distance to: Reitsema_etal_2022_I13385_IA_Sicily_Polizzello_Sic ani_Med
    8.56148936 Olade_etal_2018:I4930_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Sicily

    Distance to: Reitsema_etal_2022_I13384_IA_SicilyPolizzello_Sica ni_Med
    9.10696437 Olade_etal_2018:I4930_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Sicily

    Distance to: Reitsema_etal_2022_I13383_IA_Sicily_Polizzello_Sic ani_Med
    9.43329741 Olade_etal_2018:I4930_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Sicily

    Distance to: Reitsema_etal_2022_I13378_IA_Sicily_Polizzello_Sic ani_Med
    9.19333454 Olade_etal_2018:I4930_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Sicily

    Distance to: Reitsema_etal_2022_I13377_IA_Sicily_Polizzello_Sic ani_Med
    7.87553173 Olade_etal_2018:I4930_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Sicily

    Distance to: Reitsema_etal_2022_I13125_IA_Sicily_Baucina_MtFalc one_Sicani_Med
    6.90797365 Olade_etal_2018:I4930_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Sicily

  17. #242
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Clearly there was some admixture in between. I thought I read it was an increase in Aegean like ancestry.

  18. #243
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    Not unless there is something inside the study.



    For the Venetians Italian geneticists continue to sample mostly the alpine areas of the region, with even samples from Sappada passed off as Veneti. Sappada is a German language island in Italy!



    I don't know what this island term means .....................history of Sappada was it was under Veneto region pre-2010 and it was moved under Friuli region since then, it has nothing to do with language.
    It was changed to its correct place as it was prior to the creation of Italy.............the first Italian government erred on the border settings ............same as they refuse to say that there is a South-Tyrol in Italy
    Fathers mtdna ...... T2b17
    Grandfather paternal mtdna ... T1a1e
    Sons mtdna ...... K1a4p
    Mothers line ..... R1b-S8172
    Grandmother paternal side ... I1-CTS6397
    Wife paternal line ..... R1a-PF6155

    "Fear profits man, nothing"

  19. #244
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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    I don't know what this island term means .....................history of Sappada was it was under Veneto region pre-2010 and it was moved under Friuli region since then, it has nothing to do with language.
    It was changed to its correct place as it was prior to the creation of Italy.............the first Italian government erred on the border settings ............same as they refuse to say that there is a South-Tyrol in Italy
    You're right, for the last five years Sappada has been part of the Friuli-Venezia Giulia region and no longer Veneto. All the more reason why this sample is meaningless. The fact remains that Sappada's original language is Germanic and therefore cannot be used to represent genetically the population of northern Italy, be it Veneto or Friuli-Venezia Giulia. At most, it can represent Italy's linguistic minorities.


    LINGUA

    La parlata di Sappada/Plodn, il sappadino o plodarisch, è stata classificata come austriaco-bavarese o pustero-carinziana, definizioni che caratterizzano la matrice tedesca dell’isola linguistica alloglotta e i contatti avuti durante i secoli con la Pusteria, il Tirolo dell’Est e la Carinzia. Come le comunità consorelle di Sauris (Zahre) e Timau (Tischlbòng) nella vicina Carnia, Sappada si differenzia nettamente dal territorio circostante per le sue differenze linguistiche e culturali. Il dialetto sappadino può essere definito come una sopravvivenza del medio-alto tedesco: i primi abitanti della valle hanno portato con sé questa parlata, che si è conservata fino al Novecento, subendo influenze lessicali dal ladino e dal tedesco. La grammatica sappadina rispecchia quella tedesca nelle costruzioni morfologiche e sintattiche, sebbene i parlanti abbiano apportato semplificazioni e uniformato eventuali eccezioni, appianando le difficoltà. In confronto alle parlate di altre isole linguistiche, nonostante gli influssi esterni, il sappadino risulta nettamente più fedele alla sua matrice germanica, fatto dovuto sicuramente all’isolamento.

    http://www.plodn.info/dialetto_sappada.php

  20. #245
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    You're right, for the last five years Sappada has been part of the Friuli-Venezia Giulia region and no longer Veneto. All the more reason why this sample is meaningless. The fact remains that Sappada's original language is Germanic and therefore cannot be used to represent genetically the population of northern Italy, be it Veneto or Friuli-Venezia Giulia. At most, it can represent Italy's linguistic minorities.





    http://www.plodn.info/dialetto_sappada.php

    treading in unknown waters when you want to exclude languages in italy which are not italian .........we have albanian, greek, german, french and slav pockets of language all over italy


    most likely reason the populace wanted the change in sappada is that like Sardinia, Friuli pay no taxes to the state, while Veneto does ...................but staying under Cadore in Belluno province, Veneto would have been more profitable IMO

  21. #246
    Regular Member Malaparte's Avatar
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Francesco
    This seems to prove that Sicani, unlike Sicels and maybe Elymnians, didn't mix much with the proto-italic peoples descending the peninsula and were still quite similar to their medium bronze age predecessors. It will be interesting to compare them with Sicel and Elymnian samples.


    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    The Sicani have been variously claimed to be indigenous, i.e. Neolithic farmer like, which doesn't seem to be the case, from Iberia, Illyrians from the Balkans, or from the Italian mainland. In the latter case they might then be somewhat similar to Italics or at least perhaps to Ligurians, although perhaps with less steppe because of admixture with a large Neolithic population in Sicily.
    When we describe the Sicani as indigenous or autochthonous, what does that mean exactly?

    1 - Do we mean that the ancestral components of the Sicani first coalesced into a single population in Sicily?

    2 - Or do we mean that the population had been in Sicily for a significant length of time, perhaps a 1000 years, before the Greeks began to colonize the island, but that the Sicani had in fact originated elsewhere, perhaps in Iberia, perhaps somewhere on the Italian mainland, perhaps even Illyria?

    3 - Or do we mean that the Sicani were an Iron Age population that was largely continuous with earlier Bronze Age populations in Sicily, but contained certain new elements from elsewhere? And if this last meaning, where were the post-EBA but pre-Greek elements from?

  22. #247
    Regular Member Malaparte's Avatar
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    This comment by Markod, comment #31 on the 2019 thread devoted to Fernandes & Olalde, "Arrival of Steppe & Iranian Related Ancestry in Islands of the Western Mediterranean," seems to support notion that a major ancestral component of the Sicani came from Illyria ==
    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    The most interesting find to me are the LBA Sicilians from Trapani whom I would consider to be speakers of Indo-European. They have very little if any Caucasus admixture, and no steppe admixture. They cannot be Neolithic holdovers either since they carry Bronze Age TMRCA G2a-Z1903, one of them with a subclade specific to present day Scandinavia.

    I'm pretty sure these are Balkaners. Ultimately from Chalcolithic Bulgaria, perhaps by way of Baden-Boleraz.



  23. #248
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Just gotta love how conclusions are drawn absent any evidence from archaeology or genetics.

  24. #249
    Regular Member Malaparte's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Just gotta love how conclusions are drawn absent any evidence from archaeology or genetics.
    You snicker relentlessly. However, if you look at my comment just above, #246 on this thread, you will see that I actually posed a very naive, three-part question. I am definitely not drawing conclusions about where the Sicani originated. I simply pointed to Markod's comment regarding possible origin of the major G lineage among the Sicani (which happens to be my own), and this lineage appears to have been in Sicily at least since middle Bronze Age.

    So let me yield the floor to you, and maybe you can address the 3-part question I posed in comment #246.

  25. #250
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    Going back to the paper, already quoted by Real Expert on page 1 of this thread, it looks Iron Age Sicani largely descended from earlier Bronze Age populations in Sicily, but they now carried an Iranian-related component (6.3% give or take)

    this group can be modeled as an admixture of four sources that distantly contributed to the genetic composition of Europeans (P = 0.179): Northwestern Anatolian Neolithic farmers (Turkey_Barcin_N; 76.4 ± 1.2%), WHGs (6.4 ± 1.0%), early farmers from Iran (Iran_GanjDareh_N; 6.3 ± 1.5%), and Early Bronze Age (EBA) Steppe herders associated with the Yamnaya cultural complex (Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya; 10.9 ± 1.6%), which indicates an increase of Iranian-related admixture compared with the preceding LBA Sicily group, which can be best modeled without that component
    And then for more recent gene flow, the authors construct various two-way models with Iron Age Italy, BA Spain, IA Spain, LBA Armenia, and IA Balkans. Perhaps all these places contributed elements to the Sicani make-up, though Armenian influence was surely more mediated than the others.

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