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Thread: The diverse genetic origins of a Classical period Greek army

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Could you provide the sample numbers, please?




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    Pax Augusta: Thanks for the PCA's you posted to the community here in this forum. Since there are no new modern Sicilian samples in the Reitsema et al 2022 paper, can you tell me where do the modern Sicilian samples that we have published to date and have coordinates estimated from various amateur calculators plot on your PCA with these new samples.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Palermo Trapani View Post
    Pax Augusta: Thanks for the PCA's you posted to the community here in this forum. Since there are no new modern Sicilian samples in the Reitsema et al 2022 paper, can you tell me where do the modern Sicilian samples that we have published to date and have coordinates estimated from various amateur calculators plot on your PCA with these new samples.
    I will do others, but with K12b in the post #177 you can find the Sicilian academic samples in the PCAs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    I will do others, but with K12b in the post #177 you can find the Sicilian academic samples in the PCAs.
    Ok, thanks!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post


    117884, the Himera sample so close to Dodecad's combined Sicilian/Southern Italian set is my husband's closest sample, at 7.9.

    This is his two way: 62%117884 and 38% 120166, a very eastern shifted Himera civilian population. Also, the soldiers in the 409 B.C. Battle were local hoplites.
    Distance to: AJF
    1.85619324 62.40% Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I17884 + 37.60% Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med:I20166
    4.61240351 74.60% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I10952 + 25.40% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Caucasus_lc:I17872
    4.74210886 72.60% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I10948 + 27.40% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Caucasus_lc:I17872
    4.75706105 23.60% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Caucasus_lc:I17872 + 76.40% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I7217
    4.86800142 58.00% Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I17884 + 42.00% Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med:I20168
    4.95129315 27.80% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Caucasus_lc:I17872 + 72.20% Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I7224
    4.98300118 27.60% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Caucasus_lc:I17872 + 72.40% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I7218
    5.29093229 79.00% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I10945 + 21.00% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Caucasus_lc:I17872
    5.50729369 67.00% Baucina_MtFalcone_Sicani_Med:I13125 + 33.00% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Caucasus_lc:I17872
    5.89197248 34.60% Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I17866 + 65.40% Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I17884
    5.93711491 71.00% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I10948 + 29.00% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Caucasus:I10951
    6.00769272 77.40% Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I17866 + 22.60% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Caucasus_lc:I17872
    6.05798745 35.20% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Caucasus:I10951 + 64.80% Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med_lc:I17878
    6.06606718 69.80% Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I17884 + 30.20% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I7221
    6.12257492 19.20% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_Cent-Europe:I10950 + 80.80% Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I17884
    6.25160378 31.00% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I10952 + 69.00% Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I17884
    6.33110742 64.60% Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med:I20166 + 35.40% Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med_lc:I20167
    6.40238240 73.00% Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I17884 + 27.00% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I7219
    6.43059303 8.00% Himera_480_BC_Battle_NE-Europe:I10943 + 92.00% Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I17884
    6.47257319 7.80% Himera_480_BC_Battle_NE-Europe_lc:I10949 + 92.20% Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I17884
    6.55530566 35.20% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I10945 + 64.80% Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I17884
    6.62680172 32.40% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Caucasus:I10951 + 67.60% Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med_lc:I20162
    6.64995893 27.00% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Caucasus_lc:I17872 + 73.00% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I7219
    6.66244045 33.60% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Caucasus_lc:I17872 + 66.40% Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I7223
    6.73589437 23.80% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Caucasus:I10951 + 76.20% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I7217


    I wonder if someone from Anthrogenica would like to come here and tell me that it would require a mass replacement from Anatolia and the Levant in the Imperial and Byzantine Eras to produce Southern Italian genomes?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    117884, the Himera sample so close to Dodecad's combined Sicilian/Southern Italian set is my husband's closest sample, at 7.9.

    This is his two way: 62%117884 and 38% 120166, a very eastern shifted Himera civilian population. Also, the soldiers in the 409 B.C. Battle were local hoplites.
    Distance to: AJF
    1.85619324 62.40% Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I17884 + 37.60% Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med:I20166
    4.61240351 74.60% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I10952 + 25.40% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Caucasus_lc:I17872
    4.74210886 72.60% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I10948 + 27.40% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Caucasus_lc:I17872
    4.75706105 23.60% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Caucasus_lc:I17872 + 76.40% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I7217
    4.86800142 58.00% Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I17884 + 42.00% Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med:I20168
    4.95129315 27.80% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Caucasus_lc:I17872 + 72.20% Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I7224
    4.98300118 27.60% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Caucasus_lc:I17872 + 72.40% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I7218
    5.29093229 79.00% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I10945 + 21.00% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Caucasus_lc:I17872
    5.50729369 67.00% Baucina_MtFalcone_Sicani_Med:I13125 + 33.00% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Caucasus_lc:I17872
    5.89197248 34.60% Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I17866 + 65.40% Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I17884
    5.93711491 71.00% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I10948 + 29.00% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Caucasus:I10951
    6.00769272 77.40% Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I17866 + 22.60% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Caucasus_lc:I17872
    6.05798745 35.20% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Caucasus:I10951 + 64.80% Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med_lc:I17878
    6.06606718 69.80% Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I17884 + 30.20% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I7221
    6.12257492 19.20% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_Cent-Europe:I10950 + 80.80% Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I17884
    6.25160378 31.00% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I10952 + 69.00% Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I17884
    6.33110742 64.60% Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med:I20166 + 35.40% Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med_lc:I20167
    6.40238240 73.00% Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I17884 + 27.00% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I7219
    6.43059303 8.00% Himera_480_BC_Battle_NE-Europe:I10943 + 92.00% Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I17884
    6.47257319 7.80% Himera_480_BC_Battle_NE-Europe_lc:I10949 + 92.20% Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I17884
    6.55530566 35.20% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I10945 + 64.80% Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I17884
    6.62680172 32.40% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Caucasus:I10951 + 67.60% Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med_lc:I20162
    6.64995893 27.00% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Caucasus_lc:I17872 + 73.00% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I7219
    6.66244045 33.60% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Caucasus_lc:I17872 + 66.40% Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I7223
    6.73589437 23.80% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Caucasus:I10951 + 76.20% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I7217


    I wonder if someone from Anthrogenica would like to come here and tell me that it would require a mass replacement from Anatolia and the Levant in the Imperial and Byzantine Eras to produce Southern Italian genomes?
    To be fair Er Monnezza has been banned so I doubt they can come here to tell you, and they would also add that it would require also a very conspicuous gene flow from northern Europe, or another very big gene flow from northern Italy.

    Anyway, commenting on such models, an anthrogenica user smugly asserts that the sample Italian_South:PuG33 (taken as example for south Italians overall I guess) has a lot of Levantine, since on G25 he scores around 17% Levant_N and 24% Yamna: I ran some models with the source pops Latins-Sicani-Himera Greeks-Anatolians-Levantines-Germanic, according to what they say, and that individual comes out as 40% Anatolian, 16% Levant_BA and 21% Germanic (the rest Greek); if we suppose that the coordinates haven't been manipulated (hey, the lack of transparency of how the conversion works opens the legitimacy of skepticism), it is clear that such modelling is unrealistical beyond every historical plausibility (even if we accepted that the 56% Anatolian-Levantine is possible, what about a 20% Germanic input? It doesn't add up with historical records) and so G25 isn't good for modelling south Italians. The biggest problem with the "east med" replacement theories is that they require also a significant later northern genetic input in order to work, which is totally implausible.

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    He would not have been banned if he had not spoken ill of the administration of this website. Different views are indeed tolerated.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    117884, the Himera sample so close to Dodecad's combined Sicilian/Southern Italian set is my husband's closest sample, at 7.9.

    This is his two way: 62%117884 and 38% 120166, a very eastern shifted Himera civilian population. Also, the soldiers in the 409 B.C. Battle were local hoplites.
    Distance to: AJF
    1.85619324 62.40% Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I17884 + 37.60% Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med:I20166
    4.61240351 74.60% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I10952 + 25.40% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Caucasus_lc:I17872
    4.74210886 72.60% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I10948 + 27.40% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Caucasus_lc:I17872
    4.75706105 23.60% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Caucasus_lc:I17872 + 76.40% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I7217
    4.86800142 58.00% Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I17884 + 42.00% Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med:I20168
    4.95129315 27.80% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Caucasus_lc:I17872 + 72.20% Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I7224
    4.98300118 27.60% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Caucasus_lc:I17872 + 72.40% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I7218
    5.29093229 79.00% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I10945 + 21.00% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Caucasus_lc:I17872
    5.50729369 67.00% Baucina_MtFalcone_Sicani_Med:I13125 + 33.00% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Caucasus_lc:I17872
    5.89197248 34.60% Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I17866 + 65.40% Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I17884
    5.93711491 71.00% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I10948 + 29.00% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Caucasus:I10951
    6.00769272 77.40% Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I17866 + 22.60% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Caucasus_lc:I17872
    6.05798745 35.20% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Caucasus:I10951 + 64.80% Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med_lc:I17878
    6.06606718 69.80% Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I17884 + 30.20% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I7221
    6.12257492 19.20% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_Cent-Europe:I10950 + 80.80% Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I17884
    6.25160378 31.00% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I10952 + 69.00% Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I17884
    6.33110742 64.60% Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med:I20166 + 35.40% Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med_lc:I20167
    6.40238240 73.00% Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I17884 + 27.00% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I7219
    6.43059303 8.00% Himera_480_BC_Battle_NE-Europe:I10943 + 92.00% Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I17884
    6.47257319 7.80% Himera_480_BC_Battle_NE-Europe_lc:I10949 + 92.20% Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I17884
    6.55530566 35.20% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I10945 + 64.80% Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I17884
    6.62680172 32.40% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Caucasus:I10951 + 67.60% Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med_lc:I20162
    6.64995893 27.00% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Caucasus_lc:I17872 + 73.00% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I7219
    6.66244045 33.60% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Caucasus_lc:I17872 + 66.40% Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I7223
    6.73589437 23.80% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Caucasus:I10951 + 76.20% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I7217


    I wonder if someone from Anthrogenica would like to come here and tell me that it would require a mass replacement from Anatolia and the Levant in the Imperial and Byzantine Eras to produce Southern Italian genomes?
    I17784 is low quality sample and I20166 is ancient Greek. Look at high Caucasus in other charts.

    And there was never replacement just admixture from other regions.






  9. #209
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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    I17784 is low quality sample and I20166 is ancient Greek. Look at high Caucasus in other charts.
    And there was never replacement just admixture from other regions.




    What the heck are you talking about?

    First of all, how dare you tell me they weren't talking about REPLACEMENT level gene flow??? I freaking READ IT with my own eyes!

    Second of all what idiotic nonsense is this about 120166? Do you understand that this was the population of a Greek polis in Sicily? Of course they were Greeks! What should we expect? Poles???

    The fact is that those people came as a folk migration, STAYED, and became ancestors of southern Italians. Do you understand that?

    As to 11784 he was a soldier from the 409 B.C. battle, and therefore a hoplite from the polis, a SETTLER. If you ever carefully read papers, you would have seen that. As for being low quality, if it was good enough quality for Reich trained people it should be good enough quality for you.

    Your problem has always been, in post after post, that you don't want to acknowledge that the Greeks contributed a lot of ancestry to Southern Italians, and that you can't STAND the fact that the Greeks have an illustrious heritage, part of it forged in Southern Italy.

    My husband's ancestry is all from areas immediately adjacent to Greek settlements, and some of his people spoke Greek until 200 years ago. In isolated parts of the world language and genes are conserved. Educate yourself: look at a map of Calabria; it's perfect for that scenario.

    As for this fairy tale about this huge migration of Northern Europeans into Southern Italy, it is complete NONSENSE, certainly where Calabria is concerned. There was absolutely no HUGE migration from Northern Europe. There was no such migration at all. There weren't even any Lombard settlements in Calabria.

    I defy anyone to provide me with proof in the historical record for any such migration of large numbers of Northerners to the depths of Calabria. More importantly, SHOW me the yDna data that would prove it. If you can't, then be quiet!
    Last edited by Angela; 14-10-22 at 06:48.

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    ^ 62.40% Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I17884 + 37.60% Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med:I20166
    I17884 is a very low quality sample. And the other one is a high quality Ancient Greek (civilian) sample.
    I was not talking about Northern European admixture at all. Your own model imply >25% West Asian admixture with a very distant source and it has quite a good fit without any North European source.
    I did post those models you did.
    74.60% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I10952 + 25.40% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Caucasus_lc:I17872
    And most of others have the Caucasus source too.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Jovialis: I have been thinking of some additional analyses to with the New Iron Age Sicilian samples. Since it is not disputable that the Sicani were an Iron Age Sicilian population and the evidence based on the new Reitsema et al 2022 study, likely autochthonous, here are the Sicani samples using your Italian model (with Minoan source populations). It works quite well in my opinion.



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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    Nice salento
    Can you check also the greek samples
    Mainland, and islanders ?
    @KingJohn … it seems that the Stamatoyannopoulos samples in the dataset, don’t carry enough Y chr. calls for a confident y Haplogroup prediction in the Y-Morley, and Yseq oracle.

    ... example:
    rs9786038 Y 14140277 --
    rs17306699 Y 14144593 --
    rs16980473 Y 14159846 --
    rs9786290 Y 14171665 --
    rs9786774 Y 14193384 --
    rs16980478 Y 14199284 --
    rs9786736 Y 14199508 --
    rs35248080 Y 14286528 --
    rs17269396 Y 14288981 --
    ....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Palermo Trapani View Post
    Jovialis: I have been thinking of some additional analyses to with the New Iron Age Sicilian samples. Since it is not disputable that the Sicani were an Iron Age Sicilian population and the evidence based on the new Reitsema et al 2022 study, likely autochthonous, here are the Sicani samples using your Italian model (with Minoan source populations). It works quite well in my opinion.


    Great observation! Thanks for running the samples, the fit is good for all of them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    @KingJohn … it seems that the Stamatoyannopoulos samples in the dataset, don’t carry enough Y chr. calls for a confident y Haplogroup prediction in the Y-Morley, and Yseq oracle.

    ... example:
    rs9786038 Y 14140277 --
    rs17306699 Y 14144593 --
    rs16980473 Y 14159846 --
    rs9786290 Y 14171665 --
    rs9786774 Y 14193384 --
    rs16980478 Y 14199284 --
    rs9786736 Y 14199508 --
    rs35248080 Y 14286528 --
    rs17269396 Y 14288981 --
    ....
    OK
    bummer
    anyway thanks for all your efforts
    Direct paternal line : mizrahi from damascus
    e-fgc7391
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-FGC7391/

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    ^ 62.40% Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I17884 + 37.60% Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med:I20166
    I17884 is a very low quality sample. And the other one is a high quality Ancient Greek (civilian) sample.
    I was not talking about Northern European admixture at all. Your own model imply >25% West Asian admixture with a very distant source and it has quite a good fit without any North European source.
    I did post those models you did.
    74.60% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I10952 + 25.40% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Caucasus_lc:I17872
    And most of others have the Caucasus source too.
    Honestly, I don't think you're cut out for this hobby.

    120166 is the civilian population of Himera in SICILY, who became ancestors of the Sicilians. What aren't you getting here? Is there some simpler way of putting it so you understand it?

    THEY ARE BOTH GREEK SAMPLES, from SICILY. Do you think I'm going to ignore the first result because YOU say it's too low quality? Think again.

    So, many of his two way models need some extra Caucasus, about 25%. So what?

    Checking the models with good fits which use that Caucasus sample, first one is closest to Campanians, but at a distance of 10, same for the second one and same for the third.

    So, not Greek like, much less Ionian Greek like, so he needs the extra Caucasus to get a good fit. That's how Oracle works. If you don't understand it have someone explain it to you because my patience is gone.

    Oh, and if you didn't know that far southern Calabrians have more Caucasus related ancestry than Campanians, you do now.

    Now, my conversation with you is over. I have neither the patience nor the time to waste on going over the same thing over and over again.

    Oh, and btw, spamming is against the rules, so stop doing it!
    Last edited by Angela; 14-10-22 at 06:43.

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    I17884 has 5% coverage and is distant from other Greek samples with a minimum distance of 12.

    I was looking for it in G25 database and it was not put there because it has only 5% coverage. There was also even an E-V13 sample plotting with Caucasus with even lower coverage which also was ignored by G25.

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    H2A3

    Ethnic group
    Italian-Sicily-South
    Country: United States



    Jovialis: The other Sicilian (Himera) IA samples. I did 2 separate runs. The Non Meds (Steppe, Central Europe, Caucus, NE Europe) group, and the Himera Locals (Meds, both Military and Civilian). My quick observation and summary, your Model with the Minoan as a proxy to capture Southern Italian ancestry works for the Himera Sicilians quite well, consistent with the same model for the Sicani Sicilians. Curios about your thoughts and observations. So kudos again for your work here.







  18. #218
    Advisor Jovialis's Avatar
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1a1b2a2a
    MtDNA haplogroup
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    Italian
    Country: United States



    2 members found this post helpful.
    Distance to: Prenestini_o_IA:R437:Antonio_2019
    5.28451511 Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I10945
    5.85285400 Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I7217
    6.49901531 Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I10952
    7.53094948 Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I7224
    7.54061669 Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I17866
    7.66384368 Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I7218
    8.25112114 Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I10948
    9.17234975 Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I7219
    9.22609885 Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med:I20168
    10.75663981 Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I17884
    11.33649858 Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I7221
    11.35824370 Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med_lc:I20162
    11.93048616 Baucina_MtFalcone_Sicani_Med:I13125
    12.71922954 Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I7223
    12.72982325 Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med:I20166
    13.06781925 Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I7225
    14.40472492 Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med_lc:I17878
    14.62044459 Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13376
    15.86945494 Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13377
    16.04456294 Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13384
    16.22346449 Baucina_MtFalcone_Sicani_Med_lc:I13128
    16.33732842 Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13379
    16.34700890 Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13386
    16.51218338 Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med:I20163
    16.55102414 Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13390

    An relatively decent fit.

  19. #219
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    I17884 has 5% coverage and is distant from other Greek samples with a minimum distance of 12.
    I was looking for it in G25 database and it was not put there because it has only 5% coverage. There was also even an E-V13 sample plotting with Caucasus with even lower coverage which also was ignored by G25.


    When people lie they get banned. A few months off may do wonders for you.

    Distance to: Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med_lc:I17884
    10.50687870 Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I7217
    11.09019387 Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med_lc:I17881
    11.25451021 Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I10948
    11.30400372 Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I10945
    11.41643990 Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med_lc:I17878
    13.32291635 Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med_lc:I20162
    13.33521278 Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I7218
    14.48035911 Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I10952
    14.49883788 Baucina_MtFalcone_Sicani_Med:I13125
    14.52935993 Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I17866
    14.98962975 Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I7224
    15.73845926 Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med:I20168
    15.80759944 Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I7219
    15.82558372 Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I7225
    16.29403572 Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I7221
    17.72009029 Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13377
    17.73477939 Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I7223
    17.82512272 Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13384
    18.14798887 Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13385
    18.20148620 Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13386
    18.21596827 Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med_lc:I17879
    18.31825592 Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13382
    18.37818544 Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13383
    18.38578255 Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med:I17432
    18.40606965 Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13376



    Target: Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med_lc:I17884
    Distance: 3.1102% / 3.11018596
    76.8 Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med_lc
    13.7 Himera_480_BC_Battle_Caucasus_lc
    9.5 Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med
    Target: Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med_lc:I17884
    Distance: 3.1102% / 3.11018596
    76.8 Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med_lc
    13.7 Himera_480_BC_Battle_Caucasus_lc
    9.5 Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med

  20. #220
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Jovialis: Yes, I think many of us here have been hoping for more samples from the Iron Age somewhere South of Lazio that showed similar ancestry to R437 from Antonio et al 2019, the Republican Roman who was genetically similar to modern Southern Italians. While it of course would be great to have more IA Italian samples from all regions from Lazio to Sicily, I think the Sicily_Himera Meds I10495 and I7217 are close enough to show R437 Southern Italian type ancestry was already present in Republican Rome and suggest R437 is not just some random one off individual.

  21. #221
    researcher eupator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    Thank you, everyone :)

    … more modern Apulians Y Haplogroups, … GS could stands for Grecìa-Salentina, but I’m not sure, … I finally found a y T … lol

    … from the Raveane_Aneli_Montinaro data:

    GS32_Apulia
    - J2a
    GS34_Apulia - G2a3b1a1a
    GS47_Apulia - E1b1b1b2a1a
    ALP379_Apulia - I2a1
    cera1_Apulia - G2a3b1a1a
    cera2_Apulia - J2a1h2a1
    cera8_Apulia - I1
    cera9_Apulia - J2a1h2a1
    Pu2_Apulia - J1
    Pu3_Apulia - R1b1a2a1a2c1i~2
    Pu7_Apulia - R1b1
    Pu8_Apulia - T1a
    Pu45_Apulia - I1

    Can you link the genotype files source, please? I want to check for Y-DNA SNP calls.

  22. #222
    Regular Member Salento's Avatar
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by eupator View Post
    Can you link the genotype files source, please? I want to check for Y-DNA SNP calls.
    … dataset,

    The samples listed on your reply:

    Raveane A, Serena A, Montinaro F, et al. 2019 Science Advances

    https://capelligroup.wordpress.com/data/

  23. #223
    Regular Member real expert's Avatar
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    4 members found this post helpful.
    @Angela
    Some folks suffer from an identity crisis, hence they latch on to heritage they don't belong to, searching for greatness and glory they don't find in their own past. Besides, I devoured countless history books, and no serious historian ever suggested that Ancient Greeks or Romans were Nordic folks whatsoever. This Romans were Nordic stuff-is preposterous, pseudo, and revisionist history that isn't taken seriously by people who care about historical facts anyway. Nobody who reads primary sources and applies basic common sense would buy for a second this Ancient Greeks or Romans were German or Celtic-like myth. It actually doesn't take Ancient DNA studies to figure that out. The thing is, Ancient Roman or Greek history is cool. And therefore there are some people who begrudge modern Italians or Greeks for their rich heritage. It's a display of childish and weak behavior if you ask me. I can't speak for other countries, but in Germany, Romans are always associated with Italians, and Italians are viewed as the physical descendants of Rome. Anyway, anthro-forums attract plenty of weirdos in all varieties. This can be frustrating and tiring when having to deal with them, especially when discussing and interpreting Ancient DNA and its implication.
    “If anyone can refute me—show me I’m making a mistake or looking at things from the wrong perspective—I’ll gladly change. It’s the truth I’m after, and the truth never harmed anyone. What harms us is to persist in self-deceit and ignorance.” – Marcus Aurelius, Meditations, Book VI, 21

  24. #224
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    Guys,do we have any gedmatch kit numbers of himaeran and mycenaean(kastrouli,nestor etc) samples?

  25. #225
    Regular Member Salento's Avatar
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    3 members found this post helpful.
    All Apulians PCA: Salento_me, Leccesi from Grecìa-Salentina and Pugliesi,
    (Y flipped once), ... I end up in the center, in both PCAs.

    Leccesi, aka Salentini :)




    All the Pugliesi, aka Apulians:


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