The diverse genetic origins of a Classical period Greek army

[Er Monnezza]

^the latter PCA perfectly shows the mixed Sicilian-Greek cluster.

 

[ihype02]

Greeks in Italy seem to be more "conservative" genetically in comparison with Carthaginians. The bulk of the samples seem to be fully Greek and a proportion seems to be in between Sicanians.

It's clear to see that the colonization was not heavily male-biased. Many or most of the men came with women. The population of the cities grew very large, if most men had not come with women it would not make sense.


Carthaginians in Sardinia seem to be at least 50% native.

 

[Angela]

My results from the Himera sample:

Distance to:	Angela
8.72768010	Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_Cent-Europe:I10946
8.84477247	Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med:I20163
9.24968108	Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I7223
9.61541471	Baucina_MtFalcone_Sicani_Med_lc:I13128
10.07039225	Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13376
10.64036654	Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_Cent-Europe:I10950
11.48748885	Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13391
11.96608541	Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I7224
12.54354814	Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13392
13.02239225	Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13379
13.37797444	Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13390
13.51600903	Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13387
13.66643699	Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I7225
14.01006424	Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_W-Europe_lc:I17870
14.18050070	Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13381
14.19401634	Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13395
14.32944870	Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13382
14.54101097	Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13384
14.75138977	Baucina_MtFalcone_Sicani_Med:I13125
14.99513588	Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I7218
15.02451663	Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I7217
15.09980132	Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13389
15.11542590	Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13383
15.12952412	Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13386
15.13336050	Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13380
15.22054204	Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13394
15.35309741	Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13393
15.63564517	Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13377
15.77139816	Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I10948
15.90871145	Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13385
16.16957637	Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I10952
16.28912521	Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13378
16.79834218	Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med_lc:I20162
16.81956301	Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I10945
18.57782549	Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I17866
19.77844787	Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I7219
20.44258301	Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med_lc:I17884
21.84456912	Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med_lc:I20160
22.55855492	Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med:I20166
22.83734223	Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med_lc:I17881
24.53851055	Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med_lc:I17887
24.62798408	Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I7221
24.89996386	Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med_lc:I20167
26.15365940	Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med:I20161
27.64459260	Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med_lc:I17879
28.28553340	Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med:I17432
29.71149104	Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med_lc:I17878
30.91633711	Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med:I20168
39.45401754	Himera_480_BC_Battle_Eurasian-Steppe:I10947
39.65591759	Himera_480_BC_Battle_Caucasus_lc:I17872

Going by this, the Sicani were quite different from the inhabitants of the Greek colony of Himera.

I wish I could cross check the first six relatively close samples with the isotopic study, but I think the sample numbers are different. I'm not denying that they could all be from somewhere further north than Greece in the Balkans, ike MKD or MNE, since my matches with Bronze and Iron Age samples from there are quite good, but given we don't have very many samples of a similar age from Northern and Central Italy, I wonder if that's also a possibility?

Target: Angela Distance: 0.3543% / 0.35434401
39.2	Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_W-Europe_lc
27.6	Polizzello_Sicani_Med
21.9	Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med
8.0	Himera_480_BC_Battle_NE-Europe
3.3	Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med_lc

Distance to:	Angela
2.64665253	74.60% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_Cent-Europe:I10946 + 25.40% Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med_lc:I17887
2.86805109	64.60% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_Cent-Europe:I10946 + 35.40% Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13393
2.90797210	64.40% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_Cent-Europe:I10946 + 35.60% Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13380
2.91086451	61.80% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_Cent-Europe:I10946 + 38.20% Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I7225
2.94301003	46.20% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I10952 + 53.80% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_W-Europe_lc:I17870
3.00824595	58.80% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_W-Europe_lc:I17870 + 41.20% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I7219
3.04963808	63.40% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_Cent-Europe:I10946 + 36.60% Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13384
3.10720701	64.40% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_Cent-Europe:I10946 + 35.60% Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13383
3.14008340	64.60% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_Cent-Europe:I10946 + 35.40% Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13386
3.16071546	66.20% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_Cent-Europe:I10946 + 33.80% Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13378
3.25054704	65.40% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_Cent-Europe:I10946 + 34.60% Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13377
3.31381741	20.80% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Eurasian_Steppe_dup_of_I10949:I10944 + 79.20% Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13391
3.31381741	20.80% Himera_480_BC_Battle_NE-Europe_dup_of_I10944:I10949 + 79.20% Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13391
3.32488366	45.80% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_W-Europe_lc:I17870 + 54.20% Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I7224
3.37073180	45.20% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I10945 + 54.80% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_W-Europe_lc:I17870
3.42529481	57.80% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_Cent-Europe:I10946 + 42.20% Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13391
3.42531651	61.00% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_Cent-Europe:I10946 + 39.00% Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13379
3.46209088	66.00% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_Cent-Europe:I10946 + 34.00% Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13385
3.51847015	61.80% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_Cent-Europe:I10946 + 38.20% Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13390
3.52419275	63.20% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_Cent-Europe:I10946 + 36.80% Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13381
3.53083930	32.60% Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med:I17432 + 67.40% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_W-Europe_lc:I17870
3.53289520	54.20% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_Cent-Europe:I10946 + 45.80% Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13376
3.57121760	64.20% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_W-Europe_lc:I17870 + 35.80% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I7221
3.57217676	23.80% Himera_480_BC_Battle_NE-Europe:I10943 + 76.20% Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13380
3.60346117	64.80% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_Cent-Europe:I10946 + 35.20% Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13389

Again, the Sicani are quite different from the Greek colonists.

Target: Angela Distance: 0.3543% / 0.35434401
39.2	Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_W-Europe_lc
27.6	Polizzello_Sicani_Med
21.9	Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med
8.0	Himera_480_BC_Battle_NE-Europe
3.3	Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med_lc

This PCA puts the results in perspective. Also, look at the difference between the Bronze Age and Iron Age Bulgarian. The Iron Age one is, I believe, the E-V13 carrying one, yes?

 

[Angela]

Around Greeks but slightly more shifted toward Italy, I guess? If you have an average give it to me so I can add it.

It was included in PCAs, so it must be available, so I'll try to find it.

They were not included because they are low coverage samples.

Well, you included all the low coverage Mycenaean samples, so why not the low coverage Minoan samples? From the PCA including both the Mycenaean and Minoan low coverage samples, the Ogititria Minoan samples draw much closer to the Himera samples.

Why should it? XD

I would think that would be obvious. We have Greek colonists in Sicily. It wouldn't be informative to see how they compare to a Greek colonist in the Northern Mediterranean? We're not exactly swimming in Greek samples from the Iron Age and Classical World. Maybe the sample from Attica would be informative too, to see if the Greeks "did" get more "eastern" after the Iron Age and Classical period.

In this PCA I have included all new samples (excluding Caucasian, Eurasian, and Northeast European for better visualization) plus Minoans, Mycenaeans and Empuries.

Without low coverage samples

In a separate post you state that your PCA shows the "mixed" nature of the samples. Am I missing something here? I don't see that at all in the PCA of the samples without the low resolution ones. It shows remarkably Mycenaean like and Empuries like soldiers. Now, you'd have to know their isotope values to know if these were local hoplites, but given that some of the civilian populace also comes out Mycenaean like, I think it's a pretty good bet that they're locals.

There were no normal resolution samples from Himera residents? At least one seems more "northern", but according to the paper on the isotopes, the majority of the residents were raised near there, although they could be the children of migrants.

The Sicani are quite removed. I'm going to look up the samples in between.

 

[Angela]

Greeks in Italy seem to be more "conservative" genetically in comparison with Carthaginians. The bulk of the samples seem to be fully Greek and a proportion seems to be in between Sicanians.

It's clear to see that the colonization was not heavily male-biased. Many or most of the men came with women. The population of the cities grew very large, if most men had not come with women it would not make sense.


Carthaginians in Sardinia seem to be at least 50% native.

If you'll recall, based on my readings about the Phoenician trading empire, I've said for years that the Phoenician/Carthaginian outposts were trading marts and perhaps attached farms run by men. They would have mated with locals, diluting the "Levantine" or "North African" signal. Their armies were almost all mercenaries, many from Spain and northern Italy. In addition to the fact that many of them would just die or leave, the signal they "might" leave would be that of the "home" area of the mercenaries.

That brought nothing but derision, because for their own reasons many in the amateur community were determined to find a lot of "Levantine" in Italy, and the Phoenicians/Carthaginians were supposed to be a big part of that.

As for the Greeks, it's a mixed bag. There is documentary evidence about young men being sent to establish colonies. However, that wouldn't necessarily be the case in every area. The Empuries sample seems fully Greek, so they must have brought their own women with them. On the other hand, the colonists in Asia Minor seem to have married local women. Even if the colony was started by young men, women from the home polis might have arrived later.

At any rate, it's always been clear that change in genome for an area requires folk migration. The Phoenicians were traders. There was no folk migration involved. The Greeks were different. Their rocky home couldn't support them. There was mass migration out, which did indeed affect the colonial areas.

 

[ihype02]

It's crazy how Empuries fits right in the middle of the cluster nearly 100% identical with the average. Very good luck that scientists got those 2 samples pretty early.
Some Mycenaeans seem even closer to Aegean Islanders (more Southern) than to Southern Italians but similarly in a "western direction". I think the lack of the samples to show all the genetic variation is inflating the Anatolian admixture by 10% in for example Cretans. Sometimes Cretans come up as more Anatolian than Greek.

Also look from how far some people have come. This could be lesson to not look at solely West Anatolia but beyond that when we discuss eastern shifts occurring in the Iron Age.

 

[Palermo Trapani]

It's crazy how Empuries fits right in the middle of the cluster nearly 100% identical with the average. Very good luck that scientists got those 2 samples pretty early.
Some Mycenaeans seem even closer to Aegean Islanders (more Southern) than to Southern Italians but similarly in a "western direction". I think the lack of the samples to show all the genetic variation is inflating the Anatolian admixture by 10% in for example Cretans. Sometimes Cretans come up as more Anatolian than Greek.

Also look from how far some people have come. This could be lesson to not look at solely West Anatolia but beyond that when we discuss eastern shifts occurring in the Iron Age.

This paper is now the 3rd recent one on ancient Italian DNA that has documented an Iranian_Neolithic signal that seems independent of any Steppe Admixture that came into Italy and Sicily which has been typically modeled as EHG+CHG. CHG and Iran_Neo being highly related/similar in terms of genetic profile. The Antonio et al 2019 (ancient Lazio/Rome) paper and the Fernandes et al 2020 paper (Steppe and Iranian ancestry) dealing with Bronze Age Sardinia and Sicily.

I think perhaps looking towards Iran and Iran_Neolithic related ancestry is one place to look beyond West Anatolia when trying to document more eastern shifts that you are alluding to. Again, we have 3 papers now in the extant literature that document an Iranian_Neo signal independent of Steppe admixture that had CHG/Iran_Neo type ancestry.

 

[Angela]

Around Greeks but slightly more shifted toward Italy, I guess? If you have an average give it to me so I can add it.

They were not included because they are low coverage samples.

Well, you included other low coverage samples like some of the Mycenaeans, so why not low coverage Minoan samples?

Why should it? XD

We're not exactly swimming in Classical Era Greek samples. We have Greek colonists in Sicily. You don't think it would be informative to see how they compare to a Greek colonist on the coast of Spain, especially since the authors say some of the mercenaries might have come from there?

In this PCA I have included all new samples (excluding Caucasian, Eurasian, and Northeast European for better visualization) plus Minoans, Mycenaeans and Empuries.

It would be helpful to see all the Southern Arc samples, imo.

 

[Er Monnezza]

In a separate post you state that your PCA shows the "mixed" nature of the samples. Am I missing something here? I don't see that at all in the PCA of the samples without the low resolution ones. It shows remarkably Mycenaean like and Empuries like soldiers.

I was referring to "Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med" and the northern end of the "Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med" clusters, which are halfway between IA Sicilians and Mycenaeans although they are few samples overall.

There were no normal resolution samples from Himera residents?

If you look closely there is only 1 of good coverage in the PCA, it falls in the southern end of the Mycenaean cluster near "Sephardic_Jew".

This PCA puts the results in perspective. Also, look at the difference between the Bronze Age and Iron Age Bulgarian. The Iron Age one is, I believe, the E-V13 carrying one, yes?

I5769 is a female. By the way, the plot in addition to being old was done with Eurogenes K15, a calculator that I personally do not recommend (Eurogenes K13 is better).

 

[Er Monnezza]

Well, you included other low coverage samples like some of the Mycenaeans, so why not low coverage Minoan samples?

In the first PCA I posted in this thread I used only Sicilian samples, not Mycenaeans. I've only put the Mycenaeans (both good and bad coverage) in those 2 new ones I posted a few hours ago.

It would be helpful to see all the Southern Arc samples, imo.

I may post it later but it will be a mess to visualize, it is too many samples.

 

[Just_a_Common_Guy]

I think Lazaridis is right about the genetic continuity between the Mycenaeans and the Classical Greeks.

https://www.researchgate.net/public...he_Genomic_Formation_of_Modern_Balkan_Peoples

View attachment 13612

 

[Salento]

@Salento,

Were the new HO modern samples for Greece and Italy made available too? If so, I think it would be great to have those as well. Sorry to make to be making requests like that, but it would be much appreciated.

I did not find a downloadable geno-data link for the new Greece and Italy modern samples.
Listing the new samples below, and if anyone knows how to locate them, please lets us know.

... by Alessandro Achilli, Anna Olivieri, Hovirag Lancioni:

VT035	Italian_Central	Bolsena (VT) / Northern Latium
PG722	Italian_Central	Fabriano (AN) / Marche
PG470	Italian_Central	Ascoli Piceno (AP) / Marche
PG739	Italian_Central	Ca' De Cio (AR) / Southern Tuscany
PG128	Italian_Central	Perugia Case Nuove (PG) / Umbria
PG734	Italian_Central	Perugia (PG) / Umbria
PG2012_477	Italian_Central	Bettolle (SI) / Southern Tuscany
PG720	Italian_Central	Ascoli Piceno (AP) / Marche
PG2012_625	Italian_Central	Perugia (PG) / Umbria
PG775	Italian_Central	Perugia Stazione (PG) / Umbria
PG2012_642	Italian_Central	Cupramontana (AN) / Marche
PG723	Italian_Central	Perugia Montegrillo (PG) / Umbria
PG2012_639	Italian_Central	Arezzo (AR) / Southern Tuscany
PG2012_242	Italian_Central	Castiglion Fiorentino (AR) / Southern Tuscany
PG2012_647	Italian_Central	Chiusi (SI) / Southern Tuscany
PG731	Italian_Central	Montepulciano (SI) / Southern Tuscany
ALP211	Italian_North	Modena (MO) / Emilia-Romagna
ALP156	Italian_North	Piacenza (PC) / Emilia-Romagna
ALP202	Italian_North	Bassano del Grappa (VI) / Veneto
ALP278	Italian_North	Borgonovo Val Tidone (PC) / Emilia-Romagna
ALP134	Italian_North	Cremona(CR) / Lombardy
ALP603	Italian_North	Vernate (MI) / Lombardy
ALP533	Italian_North	Torino (TO) / Piedmont
ALP67	Italian_North	Borgo Val di Taro (PR) / Emilia-Romagna
ALP392	Italian_North	Busseto (PR) / Emilia-Romagna
ALP68	Italian_North	Alessandria (AL) / Piedmont
ALP73	Italian_North	Cuneo (CN) / Piedmont
ALP108	Italian_North	Treviso (TV) / Veneto
ALP342	Italian_North	Parma (PR) / Emilia-Romagna
ALP277	Italian_North	Domodossola (VB) / Piedmont
ALP481	Italian_North	Sappada (BL) / Veneto
ALP28	Italian_North	Ferrara (FE) / Emilia-Romagna
ALP76	Italian_North	Bergamo (BG) / Lombardy
Nei27	Italian_North	Nogarè (TN) / Trentino-Alto Adige
Nei18	Italian_North	Taio (TN) / Trentino-Alto Adige
ALP597	Italian_South	Cetraro (CS) / Calabria
ALP129	Italian_South	Reggio Calabria (RC) / Calabria
PuG46	Italian_South	Martano (LE) / Apulia
PuG12	Italian_South	Soleto (LE) / Apulia
PuG20	Italian_South	Calimera (LE) / Apulia
PG2012_398	Italian_South	Lamezia Terme (CZ) / Calabria
PuG37	Italian_South	Soleto (LE) / Apulia
NaN129RT	Italian_South	Portici (NA) / Campania
PG2012_699	Italian_South	Mileto (VV) / Calabria
PuG33	Italian_South	Sternatia (LE) / Apulia
PG2012_424	Italian_South	Amendolara (CS) / Calabria
PuG74	Italian_South	Zollino (LE) / Apulia
ALP374	Italian_South	Benevento (BN) / Campania
PuG28	Italian_South	Martano (LE) / Apulia
PuG58	Italian_South	Martano (LE) / Apulia
PuG17	Italian_South	Soleto (LE) / Apulia
PuG66	Italian_South	Zollino (LE) / Apulia

... by George Stamatoyannopoulos:

AHA15	Greek	Lefkasio/Ahaia/Greek
ARG1	Greek	Argos/Argolida/Greek
ARK3	Greek	Perdikoneri/Messenia/Greek
ARK19	Greek	Palaiohori/Arkadia/Greek
CYCL1	Greek	Koumaros/Cyclades/Greek
CYCL2	Greek	Amorgos/Cyclades/Greek
CYCL3	Greek	Amorgos/Cyclades/Greek
CYCL12	Greek	Tarampados/Cyclades/Greek
CYCL16	Greek	Triovasalos/Cyclades/Greek
CYCL19	Greek	Milos/Cyclades/Greek
CYCL22	Greek	Kea/Cyclades/Greek
CYCL23	Greek	Kea/Cyclades/Greek
DOD1	Greek	Paradisi/Dodecanese/Greek
DOD2	Greek	Lardos/Dodecanese/Greek
DOD3	Greek	Laerma/Dodecanese/Greek
DOD4	Greek	Archagelos/Dodecanese/Greek
DOD5	Greek	Malonas/Dodecanese/Greek
DOD6	Greek	Vati/Dodecanese/Greek
DOD7	Greek	Rodos/Dodecanese/Greek
IL4	Greek	Douneika/Aitolokarnania/Greek
IL21	Greek	Skliros/Messenia/Greek
KOR42	Greek	Kariotika/Korinthia/Greek
LAK8	Greek	Neapoli/Laconia/Greek
MAK103	Greek	Hortiatis/Thessaloniki/Greek
MAK118	Greek	Epanomi/Thessaloniki/Greek
MAK127	Greek	Kassandrino/Halkidiki/Greek
MAK147	Greek	Nikisiani/Kavala/Greek
MAK175	Greek	Palaiohori/Halkidiki/Greek
MAK196	Greek	Parthenonas/Halkidiki/Greek
MAK249	Greek	Poroi/Pieria/Greek
MAK337	Greek	Doxato/Drama/Greek
MES19	Greek	Filiatra/Messenia/Greek
MES32	Greek	Kyparissia/Messenia/Greek
CRE_AN_18	Cretan	Ano Horio/Lasithi/Greek
CRE_AV_28	Cretan	Agios Thomas/Heraklion/Greek
CRE_IER_20	Cretan	Christos/Lasithi/Greek
CRE_KAN_18	Cretan	Kandanos/Chania/Greek
CRE_KIS_27	Cretan	Kalathenes/Chania/Greek
CRE_MOI_17	Cretan	Zaros/Heraklion/Greek
CRE_NE_11	Cretan	Vrachasi/Lasithi/Greek
CRE_SIT_4	Cretan	Papayannades/Lasithi/Greek
CRE_SIT_8	Cretan	Ziros/Lasithi/Greek
CRE_TZ_10	Cretan	Tzermiado/Lasithi/Greek
CRE_VIA_25	Cretan	Vianos/Heraklion/Greek

 

[bigsnake49]

I am surprised that there are no samples from Thrace and pretty much nothing from Epiros and western Macedonia and Ionian Islands.

 

[Salento]

I am surprised that there are no samples from Thrace and pretty much nothing from Epiros and western Macedonia and Ionian Islands.

those are just the new modern samples, … they also used modern samples from 2019, 2014, 2012, … that we already have.

 

[bigsnake49]

those are just the new modern samples, … they also used modern samples from 2019, 2014, 2012, … that we already have.

Ah, thanks @Salento

 

[Angela]

Sicani sample:

Target: Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13389 Distance: 361.6772% / 3.61677183
78.0	Sardinian
16.4	Greek_Icaria
5.6	Greek_Pontus

Distance to:	Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13389
3.36640758	ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL:I15621
4.88876262	BGR_MalakPreslavets_N:I1295
5.18474686	ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL:I14160
5.34237775	BGR_Dzhulyunitsa_N:I17981
5.48140493	ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL:I7137
5.51490707	ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL:I20806
6.08691219	ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL:I20810
6.13828152	BGR_MalakPreslavets_N:I2216
6.24502202	ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL_sister.I7133:I15622
6.26147746	ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL:I18116
6.33943215	ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL:I15616
6.79711704	ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL:I15618
7.08920306	ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL:I7131
7.10983825	HRV_GornjaVrba_MN:I18827
7.35034013	ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL:I15620
7.71698128	ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL:I7133
7.86775063	ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL:I7130
7.89919616	ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL:I7127
7.90011392	ROU_N_outlier1:I7126
8.08182529	SRB_ChLBA:I17914
8.10894568	ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL:I18115
8.37196512	SRB_ChLBA:I17915
8.58949940	CYP_PPNB:I4207
8.64190951	ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_Chl_possible.dup.I18154_1d.rel.I7137:I18117_d
8.66002309	ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL:I14162

It's looking more likely to me that the Sicani were probably autochthonous, and the ancient writers got it wrong, AGAIN, about the source of the ancient Italian populations.

These people look mainly European farmer like, maybe 75% Anatolian Neolithic, and some WHG, and then maybe some steppe and/or Iran Neo, so definitely Southern European like, but not Mycenaean Greek like or Greek colonist like.

Of course, different tribes in different parts of Sicily and then mainland Italy itself may be different.

We'll have to analyze the samples more carefully once we know we have the official versions.
I

Target: Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13389 Distance: 361.6772% / 3.61677183
78.0	Sardinian
16.4	Greek_Icaria
5.6	Greek_Pontus

Target: Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13389 Distance: 361.6772% / 3.61677183
78.0	Sardinian
16.4	Greek_Icaria
5.6	Greek_Pontus

 

[Angela]

Sicani sample:

Target: Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13389 Distance: 361.6772% / 3.61677183
78.0	Sardinian
16.4	Greek_Icaria
5.6	Greek_Pontus

Distance to:	Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13389
3.36640758	ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL:I15621
4.88876262	BGR_MalakPreslavets_N:I1295
5.18474686	ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL:I14160
5.34237775	BGR_Dzhulyunitsa_N:I17981
5.48140493	ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL:I7137
5.51490707	ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL:I20806
6.08691219	ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL:I20810
6.13828152	BGR_MalakPreslavets_N:I2216
6.24502202	ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL_sister.I7133:I15622
6.26147746	ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL:I18116
6.33943215	ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL:I15616
6.79711704	ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL:I15618
7.08920306	ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL:I7131
7.10983825	HRV_GornjaVrba_MN:I18827
7.35034013	ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL:I15620
7.71698128	ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL:I7133
7.86775063	ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL:I7130
7.89919616	ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL:I7127
7.90011392	ROU_N_outlier1:I7126
8.08182529	SRB_ChLBA:I17914
8.10894568	ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL:I18115
8.37196512	SRB_ChLBA:I17915
8.58949940	CYP_PPNB:I4207
8.64190951	ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_Chl_possible.dup.I18154_1d.rel.I7137:I18117_d
8.66002309	ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL:I14162

It's looking more likely to me that the Sicani were probably autochthonous, and the ancient writers got it wrong, AGAIN, about the source of the ancient Italian populations.

These people look mainly European farmer like, maybe 75% Anatolian Neolithic, and some WHG, and then maybe some steppe and/or Iran Neo, so definitely Southern European like, but not Mycenaean Greek like or Greek colonist like.

Of course, different tribes in different parts of Sicily and then mainland Italy itself may be different.

We'll have to analyze the samples more carefully once we know we have the official versions.
I

Target: Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13389 Distance: 361.6772% / 3.61677183
78.0	Sardinian
16.4	Greek_Icaria
5.6	Greek_Pontus

If not autochthonous, then from mainland Italy. Very close to Sicily Bronze Age samples, but also the closest I've seen later samples come to Central Italian Neolithic. If people like this existed in Sicily in the Iron Age, then why are all the papers about Iron Age Southern Italy only about Italics and Greeks?

Distance to:	Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13389
3.03631355	Sicily_LBA_Marcita:I10372:Fernandes_2020
3.36640758	ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL:I15621
4.15817268	Sicily_LBA_Marcita:I3878:Fernandes_2020
4.82849873	Sicily_EBA_Buffa_Cave_II:I11442:Fernandes_2020
4.88876262	BGR_MalakPreslavets_N:I1295
5.18474686	ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL:I14160
5.32063906	Sicily_LBA_Marcita:I10373:Fernandes_2020
5.34114220	Sicily_LBA_Marcita:I3876:Fernandes_2020
5.34237775	BGR_Dzhulyunitsa_N:I17981
5.40682902	Sicily_EBA_Buffa_Cave_II:I3123:Fernandes_2020
5.48140493	ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL:I7137
5.51490707	ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL:I20806
6.08691219	ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL:I20810
6.11332970	Sicily_MN_Stretto_Partanna:I4065:Fernandes_2020
6.13828152	BGR_MalakPreslavets_N:I2216
6.24502202	ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL_sister.I7133:I15622
6.26147746	ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL:I18116
6.33943215	ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL:I15616
6.79711704	ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL:I15618
6.94822279	Sicily_MBA_Buffa_Cave_II:I4109:Fernandes_2020
7.08920306	ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL:I7131
7.10983825	HRV_GornjaVrba_MN:I18827
7.35034013	ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL:I15620
7.41258389	Sicily_EBA_Buffa_Cave_II:I3125:Fernandes_2020
7.71698128	ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL:I7133
7.72373614	C_Italian_N:R17:Antonio_2019
7.86775063	ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL:I7130
7.89919616	ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL:I7127
7.90011392	ROU_N_outlier1:I7126
7.94647721	Sicily_EBA_Contrada_Paolina_Castellucciana:I7807:Fernandes_2020
8.08182529	SRB_ChLBA:I17914
8.10894568	ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL:I18115
8.32396540	Sicily_EBA_Buffa_Cave_II:I3124:Fernandes_2020
8.37196512	SRB_ChLBA:I17915
8.58949940	CYP_PPNB:I4207
8.64190951	ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_Chl_possible.dup.I18154_1d.rel.I7137:I18117_d
8.66002309	ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL:I14162
8.89807844	ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL:I7135
8.91159918	ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL_brother.I11906:I7134
9.12221464	ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL:I14166
9.31020945	Sicily_EBA_Contrada_Paolina_Castellucciana:I7774_d:Fernandes_2020
9.50671342	ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL:I15619
9.50742867	ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL:I14165
9.56288659	Sicily_MN_Stretto_Partanna:I4062:Fernandes_2020
9.64025933	BGR_Stambolovo_IA:I15844
9.98194871	C_Italian_N:R3:Antonio_2019
10.06071568	BGR_Dzhulyunitsa_N:I11270
10.17709192	ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL:I7136
10.17715579	ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL:I14159
10.18056482	C_Italian_N:R19:Antonio_2019

 

[Hawk]

This is my closest match, a soldier described by the authors as a mixture of central and Balkan ancestry.

Distance to:	Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_Cent-Europe:I10946
2.93308711	Italian_Veneto
3.07253967	Italian_Piedmont
3.26599143	Italian_Lombardy
4.01203190	Italian_Liguria
4.52730604	Italian_Emilia
5.03992187	Swiss_Italian
5.26428533	Italian_Friuli_VG
5.57457622	Italian_Trentino
5.90759680	Italian_Tuscany
8.14992025	Italian_Romagna
8.46255871	Italian_Aosta_Valley
9.60735656	French_Corsica
9.83466827	Italian_Umbria
10.21314349	Macedonian_Vardar
10.31406806	Spanish_Baleares
10.58307139	Albanian_Kosovo
10.72228054	Macedonian_South
10.87933362	Macedonian_East
11.30645391	Macedonian_Polog
11.36434336	Italian_Lazio
11.42829821	Portuguese
11.50418463	Italian_Marche
11.63881867	Spanish_Canarias
11.68290632	Greek_Macedonia
11.83536227	Austrian_Tyrol

Closest ancient match for it from Southern Arc samples:

Distance to:	Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_Cent-Europe:I10946
2.78644935	HRV_BA:I18712
2.98871210	MNE_LBA:I14498
3.23542887	MNE_LBA:I13172
3.42943144	HRV_Cetina_BA:I18088
3.47201671	ALB_Çinamak_Anc:I16253
3.64773903	MNE_LBA:I13775
3.69039293	SRB_BA:I16803
3.77361895	HRV_BA:I5074
4.03637213	MNE_LBA:I13168
4.12242647	MNE_LBA:I13169
4.12408778	SRB_BA:I17913
4.51106418	MKD_Anc:I8112
4.98124482	MKD_Anc:I10384
4.99731928	HRV_Cetina_BA:I19027
5.04593896	HRV_Anc_brother.I18831:I18830
5.07790311	HRV_Cetina_BA:I18745
5.10918780	MNE_LBA_brother.I13169_son.or.brother.I13776:I13777
5.12647052	HRV_BA:I5080
5.17966215	MKD_Anc:I10377
5.31776269	HRV_IA:I5729
5.42506221	SRB_BA:I17912
5.44027573	HRV_Cetina_BA:I18752
5.54583628	MKD_Anc:I10383
5.57596628	MNE_LBA:I13171
5.60107133	MNE_LBA:I14501

Another mercenary probably from outside Greece or even the Greek world:

Distance to:	Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I7223
7.64100124	French_Corsica
12.37324937	Italian_Tuscany
12.42813679	Italian_Marche
12.43657509	Italian_Romagna
12.95873836	Italian_Umbria
13.19374094	Italian_Liguria
13.25838225	Italian_Emilia
13.94157452	Italian_Lazio
14.84614765	Italian_Lombardy
15.66525135	Italian_Molise
15.78862249	Italian_Abruzzo
16.13977075	Italian_Campania
16.67125970	Italian_Piedmont
16.85838664	Sardinian
17.26569431	Italian_Sicily
17.39979885	Italian_Veneto
18.01935071	Italian_Basilicata
18.02502427	Albanian
18.39592890	Italian_Calabria
18.47916293	Swiss_Italian
18.50314568	Greek_Athens
18.54495349	Italian_Apulia
18.66551901	Ashkenazi_Jew
18.74542611	Greek_Central
19.42878792	Greek_Thrace

His closest ancient match:Bulgarian Early Bronze. Don't have time to look up their Admixture. Are they the steppe admixed ones?

Distance to:	Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I7223
4.70157420	BGR_ChL:I2428
4.99663887	BGR_TellKran_EBA:I19456
5.20632308	BGR_Stambolovo_IA:I15844
6.26763113	BGR_TellKran_EBA:I19455
6.92255733	GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13580
6.95267574	BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IA:I19494
7.17226603	BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IA:I20183
7.24458418	ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL:I18154
7.29233159	BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IA:I20181
7.56946497	GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA_father.or.son.I13518:I13506_d
7.65461952	BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IA:I20185
7.67619046	MKD_Anc:I7233
7.91715858	ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL:I18115
8.02812556	BGR_MalakPreslavets_N:I1295
8.05314845	BGR_Dzhulyunitsa_N:I17981
8.12438305	GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13428
8.85305597	MKD_Anc:I10387
8.91196948	MKD_Anc:I10390
9.03008306	BGR_TellKran_EBA:I19451
9.16228138	BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IA:I20186
9.24948107	BGR_TellKran_EBA:I19452
9.32417289	BGR_Smyadovo_EBA_contam:I2176
9.48526225	ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_Chl_possible.dup.I18154_1d.rel.I7137:I18117_d
9.77989264	MKD_Anc:I10391
9.79789773	GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13579

If he's a local hoplite, some good Mycenaean like matches.

My closest Sicani match, far from Himera, so unlikely to be admixed with Greek colonists:

Distance to:	Baucina_MtFalcone_Sicani_Med_lc:I13128
8.87078914	French_Corsica
13.22172833	Italian_Tuscany
13.64501374	Italian_Romagna
13.89294872	Italian_Marche
13.90777121	Italian_Emilia
13.95357302	Italian_Liguria
14.25368373	Italian_Umbria
15.13331094	Italian_Lombardy
15.40216543	Italian_Lazio
16.52666331	Sardinian
17.14383563	Italian_Piedmont
17.28939270	Italian_Molise
17.40661943	Italian_Abruzzo
17.80526888	Italian_Veneto
17.81488703	Italian_Campania
18.64958612	Swiss_Italian
18.97385570	Italian_Sicily
19.04572655	Albanian
19.64594106	Italian_Basilicata
19.78599505	Greek_Athens
20.00009500	Greek_Central
20.05098751	Italian_Apulia
20.17194091	Italian_Calabria
20.21205333	Italian_Trentino
20.30590308	Spanish_Canarias

Closest ancient match:Bulgaria early Bronze. Again, given the modern matches, probably the steppe admixed samples.

Distance to:	Baucina_MtFalcone_Sicani_Med_lc:I13128
5.54622394	BGR_TellKran_EBA:I19456
6.33971608	BGR_Stambolovo_IA:I15844
7.34815623	BGR_TellKran_EBA:I19455
7.53493198	BGR_MalakPreslavets_N:I1295
7.61467005	ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL:I18154
7.71061606	BGR_ChL:I2428
7.91028444	GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13580
8.07687440	BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IA:I19494
8.16639455	ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_ChL:I18115
8.43653365	BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IA:I20181
8.92420305	BGR_Dzhulyunitsa_N:I17981
8.96887953	BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IA:I20183
9.23262693	BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IA:I20185
9.26365479	MKD_Anc:I7233
9.34211967	MKD_Anc:I10387
9.85924946	GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA_father.or.son.I13518:I13506_d
9.94509930	MKD_Anc:I10390
10.00169986	BGR_Smyadovo_EBA_contam:I2176
10.02298359	BGR_TellKran_EBA:I19451
10.08827537	BGR_TellKran_EBA:I19452
10.31731554	GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13428
10.47995229	ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_Chl_possible.dup.I18154_1d.rel.I7137:I18117_d
10.63376697	BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IA:I20186
10.80608162	ROU_N_outlier1:I7126
11.12893077	MKD_Anc:I10391

Himera Civilian Population:

Distance to:	Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med:I20166
7.00146413	Greek_Izmir
7.53941642	Greek_Foca
8.16654150	Greek_Fournoi
8.36376112	Greek_Icaria
8.52355560	Ashkenazi_Jew
8.68658161	Moldovan_Jewish
8.76209450	Greek_Crete
9.00281067	Greek_Athens
9.62135645	Italian_Apulia
9.82482061	Greek_Lemnos
10.11706973	Italian_Molise
10.17894887	Greek_Central
10.23899409	Italian_Campania
10.38479658	Italian_Calabria
10.73117887	Greek_Kos
11.00641631	Italian_Sicily
11.28183939	Greek_Rhodes
11.28560145	Italian_Abruzzo
11.44035402	Greek_Peloponnese
11.69727319	Italian_Basilicata
12.68192809	Italian_Jew
12.96513401	Albanian
13.13688319	Greek_Thessaloniki
13.89746020	Sephardic_Jew
13.95732782	Greek_Thrace

The above sample compared to ancient samples from the Southern Arc:

Distance to:	Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med:I20166
6.52941039	TUR_Marmara_Balıkesir_Byz:I14831
7.76007088	GRC_Palace_of_Nestor_EIA:I19368
8.39931545	TUR_Marmara_Balıkesir_Byz:I14820
8.50581566	TUR_Marmara_İznik_Y.kapı_Byz:I14840
8.57726646	TUR_BlackSea_Samsun_Anc_A:I5249
8.79564097	TUR_Aegean_Muğla_Stratonikeia_Byz:I20187
9.27222196	BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IA:I19490
9.64222485	BGR_Anc:I19500
9.64535121	MKD_Anc_outlier2:I10167
9.71665580	TUR_Aegean_Muğla_Stratonikeia_Byz:I20147
9.75084099	TUR_Marmara_Balıkesir_PostMdv:I14823
10.20658611	ALB_PostMdv:I14686
10.60652629	TUR_Marmara_Balıkesir_Byz:I14832
10.75888935	HRV_Trogir_Byz:I15462
10.88683609	GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13577
11.48303531	GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA:I13517_d
11.58518019	HRV_Cetina_BA_1d.rel.I19027.possible.1d.rel.I19020:I19022
11.81717394	MKD_Anc:I10389
11.84901262	TUR_Aegean_Muğla_Samantaş_Byz:I20265
11.92806774	ALB_Mdv:I14622
11.94731351	GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA:I19366
11.99140943	BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IA:I19495
12.01849824	TUR_Aegean_Muğla_Samantaş_Byz:I20266
12.27979234	TUR_Aegean_Muğla_Samantaş_Byz_brother.I20265:I20264
12.33088805	TUR_Aegean_Muğla_Samantaş_Byz:I20259

So, even the inhabitants of the Greek colony who might have been admixed with the very different Sicani seem quite close to an EIA Greek in the Palace of Nestor.

I'm always slightly amazed how such an old calculator can come so close to modern qpAdm and Admixture analyses of ancient samples.

Both of those Balkan/Central-European are E-V13, which is interesting and might hint they came from similar region. What is your guess?

 

[Angela]

Both of those Balkan/Central-European are E-V13, which is interesting and might hint they came from similar region. What is your guess?

Given they're so close to HRV and MNE Bronze Age, and Albanian Cinamak ancient, I'd say coastal western Balkans makes sense.

Particularly makes sense also given where we found precursor of E-V13.

The closeness to modern Northern Italian populations doesn't indicate to me that they came from Italy, as northern Italians often get very close matches to these Bronze Age and Iron Age western Balkan peoples. I do myself.

I'd need to see strontium isotope analysis to be sure, but that paper said the "non-local" Himera samples came from either more mountainous locales or places from a more northern latitude. So that also fits.

(The isotope analysis might be able to distinguish between the western Balkans and the "Thracian" hypothesis which many seem to prefer.)

This is all speculation, of course, but I think it's informed speculation.

 

[Salento]

… I10944 and I10949 bams are duplicates, they’ve been the same for a month, … see the size of the bams below:

I reviewed the Y Haplogroup of the duplicate bams, it matches I10944 Himera 480-BC-Battle Eurasian-Steppe, … disregard / delete I10949, as of now.