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Thread: Steppe_EMBA more Iranian-related than most modern middle easterners

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    Steppe_EMBA more Iranian-related than most modern middle easterners



    https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S...showall%3Dtrue

    I just thought it was an interesting observation.

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    ^^HO (Human Origin Array) seems to be the new gold-standard for modern populations it seems.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post


    https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S...showall%3Dtrue

    I just thought it was an interesting observation.
    It "is" interesting, and it was an interesting paper.

    Do you remember all that blather from "Kurganists" about how the Indo-Europeans were responsible for the achievements of the Sumerians? :) Looks like there was no EHG like gene flow until the Iron Age, and even then it's paltry. The madness which people used to be able to spout is amazing.

    You can also see how Natufian shrunk in the oldest or most unchanged Levant populations, people like the Lebanese, especially the Christian Lebanese, and the Druze, and how the migrations with the Muslim invasions of tribes from the Saudi peninsula increased it in people like the Palestinians and Jordanians.

    The best example, however, is the Assyrians and the Muslim Iraqis. Look at the difference in Natufian. Same for the Iraqi Kurds. Holding on to their religion reduced gene flow.

    I can't wait until we have lots of first millennium B.C.E. from the area the Romans called "Greater Syria".

    I'm surprised there's so little SSA, but that's probably down to the fact they're using a West African source instead of an East African source, when most of the 'mostly' female slaves came from East Africa.


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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    It "is" interesting, and it was an interesting paper.

    Do you remember all that blather from "Kurganists" about how the Indo-Europeans were responsible for the achievements of the Sumerians? :) Looks like there was no EHG like gene flow until the Iron Age, and even then it's paltry. The madness which people used to be able to spout is amazing.

    You can also see how Natufian shrunk in the oldest or most unchanged Levant populations, people like the Lebanese, especially the Christian Lebanese, and the Druze, and how the migrations with the Muslim invasions of tribes from the Saudi peninsula increased it in people like the Palestinians and Jordanians.

    The best example, however, is the Assyrians and the Muslim Iraqis. Look at the difference in Natufian. Same for the Iraqi Kurds. Holding on to their religion reduced gene flow.

    I can't wait until we have lots of first millennium B.C.E. from the area the Romans called "Greater Syria".

    I'm surprised there's so little SSA, but that's probably down to the fact they're using a West African source instead of an East African source, when most of the 'mostly' female slaves came from East Africa.
    Indeed, when we think of the Agricultural revolution; it also seems that Anatolian_N not only greatly impacted Europe HG, but also the Levant_HGs (Natufians), and replaced a lot of the autosomal DNA; in addition to the Iranian-like replacement in the BA. As well as sweeping changes to the Y-DNA, so much so, that some people are oblivious to the fact that J1 was once alien to the Levant.

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    Jovialis/Angela: I am not sure my post should go here since it is somewhat related to the Himera paper and some of the discussion there but the admixture models that Jovialis posted in post #1 are interesting. Some observations, what strikes me is the Anatolian Neolithic and the Natufian, which on all the PCA's we have seen going back to Lazaridis et al 2016 "Genomic insights into the origin of farming in the ancient Near East (Figure 1)" and Feldman et al 2019 "Late Pleistocene human genome suggests a localorigin for the first farmers of central Anatolia (Figure 1)" plot separately. I have noted this in threads about Italian genetics that the Levant Neolithic Samples were shifted towards the Anatolian Neolithic samples due to admixture coming from Anatolia into the Levant, not as much vice versa. The Southern Arc papers talk about Anatolia being a genetic island for the most part showing a general continuity from the Neolithic to BA. The Levant Populations, all of them, but particularly the Lebanese Christians and Druze have it seems almost have their admixture from Neolithic Anatolia, which as we know is the where the Early European Farmers came from and the EEF are the major source ancestry in admixture models for all modern Italian populations ranging from I think 56% to 72% (Raveane et al 2019).




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    Jovialis: I see in post 4 you caught what I caught. I was writing my post before you made post #4, so think of my post #5 as an addendum to yours.

    Cheers, PT.

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    Interesting where Kumtepe plots in terms of modern populations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Interesting where Kumtepe plots in terms of modern populations.
    Angela: Correct, here is the PCA from Kılınc et al 2016 "The Demographic Developmentof the First Farmers in Anatolia", which I know is a paper you have referred to before in many forums and you are familiar with. Figure 1 in this paper along with the Figure 1's from the 2 papers I cited above illustrates clearly the genomics of Southern Europeans and Italians in particular, the Anatolian Neolithic samples (EEF) are close to modern Southern Europeans who are pulled just North and West of them due to Steppe and some residual WHG ancestry I guess.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Palermo Trapani View Post
    Angela: Correct, here is the PCA from Kılınc et al 2016 "The Demographic Developmentof the First Farmers in Anatolia", which I know is a paper you have referred to before in many forums and you are familiar with. Figure 1 in this paper along with the Figure 1's from the 2 papers I cited above illustrates clearly the genomics of Southern Europeans and Italians in particular, the Anatolian Neolithic samples (EEF) are close to modern Southern Europeans who are pulled just North and West of them due to Steppe and some residual WHG ancestry I guess.

    Yes, generally, although there was some shifting before modern populations landed where they are today. I think after the arrival of the Bell Beakers the Spanish might have been about where the French Basque are now, and then shifted to their present position after the Iron Age and the Muslim invasions. Likewise, Northern Italians/Tuscan moved around a bit before landing where they are now.

    Still, it's clear as you say how much effect Anatolian Neolithic has had on Southern Europeans, and on all Europeans in general as well, although the proportions are different, as I've been trying to explain to enter_tain on another thread. The only people who go below 40%, if I remember correctly, are the people in far northeastern Europe, where some of it is probably eaten up by Siberian.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post


    https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S...showall%3Dtrue

    I just thought it was an interesting observation.
    Some papers like the Harvard ones are good about spending the extra time to do formal analysis such as using qpAdm and considering the archeology and history when publishing results whereas many of these other papers like the one you posted like to take shortcuts and just mass run samples through Admixture program calculator and not worry about doing individual analysis on each population and consider their history and other factors. Other problem is Admixture program doesn’t even give the fit of the model

    I can’t soeak for other populations but I can say the Iraqi Kurd result is not what you get if you spend the time and do it with qpAdm. The first thing i thought about when i saw it is don’t they even know that R1a-Z94 is one of the major haplogroups with Iraqi Kurds. Even the Eupedia R1a-Z93 map for West Asia shows R1a-Z93 peaks in the Kurdistan area. More detailed testing shows it’s Z94.

    So when I saw the chart you posted right away i figured their chart is not consistent with the R1a frequency in Kurds. Anyway here is the actual result for Iraqi Kurds using qpAdm which makes more sense. I used the same colors so you can see how much off their result based on Admixture program is off

    [IMG][/IMG]


    It looks like Iran-N and EHG is underestimated by their result and Anatolia-N and Natufian is overestimated. Also the result for Yamnaya is off too

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Perhaps before you state that the authors of a paper didn't use qpAdm, you ought to read the paper.

    Kurds are included. You should know that there is not a 1-to-1 correspondence between yDna and autosomal impact.

    Table 1Modeling present-day Middle Easterners as deriving their ancestry from four ancient populations using qpAdm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Perhaps before you state that the authors of a paper didn't use qpAdm, you ought to read the paper.

    Kurds are included. You should know that there is not a 1-to-1 correspondence between yDna and autosomal impact.

    Table 1Modeling present-day Middle Easterners as deriving their ancestry from four ancient populations using qpAdm
    Exactly Angela, I did read it, I don’t have any issues with their qpAdm table because they’re consistent with what I posted. I was referring to the barchart which they based on Admixture which is not consistent with their own qpAdm table or my qpAdm result.

    Their qpAdm table and my qpAdm posting are actually consistent with yDNA in this particular case. It’s their Admixture based barchart that’s off

    [IMG][/IMG]

    [IMG][/IMG]

    I can see how my original post may have seemed confusing

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    It "is" interesting, and it was an interesting paper.

    Do you remember all that blather from "Kurganists" about how the Indo-Europeans were responsible for the achievements of the Sumerians? :) Looks like there was no EHG like gene flow until the Iron Age, and even then it's paltry. The madness which people used to be able to spout is amazing.
    Of course the Indo-Europeans were responsible for the achievements of the Sumerians but the fact is that they didn't live where "Kurganists" say, we already know that the original land of Indo-Europeans was not too far from the land of Sumerians.

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    Gobekli Tepe (9500+/-bc)predates Sumerian(4500 bc+/-)both are agriculture and translate into the region with Anatolian_n component. Sumerians(agricultural) had diagrams of wagons. Yamnaya Steppe pastoralists (non agricultural) built and buried wagons that were capable of long distance travel with relatively heavy loads. Hittites(1650bc)-Anatolian.

    Suum cuique-ancient ochre elite burial cultures in Seredny Stih phase II, Yamnaya
    - ochre burials with wagons, copper cudgel ,tanged daggers,iron-powder, beads, iron tools -weapons. Turganik Dom2 -horses; horse head shaped scepters, Kernosovkiy idol horse .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    Gobekli Tepe (9500+/-bc)predates Sumerian(4500 bc+/-)both are agriculture and translate into the region with Anatolian_n component. Sumerians(agricultural) had diagrams of wagons. Yamnaya Steppe pastoralists (non agricultural) built and buried wagons that were capable of long distance travel with relatively heavy loads. Hittites(1650bc)-Anatolian.
    Gobekli Tepe is too far from Sumer, there is Ali Kosh Tepe (7500 BC) in the west of Iran and beside Sumer.

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