Genetic History of Anatolia during Holocene

[Angela]

@Angela,

I don't want to leave this comment unanswered. Here's the thing, dianatomia mentioned blond Achilles, the possible association of higher Steppe ancestry with blond hair in Ancient Greeks - you, me, and others responded to his original statement. To make just one thing clear, I personally never started a thread or conversation about blond hair, Steppe people or them being the super blond chads, etc. So why do you single me and for that matter enter_tain or Silesian out? Someone posted a Roman mosaic of a blond Achilles and I showed other Roman mosaics to make the case that the Greek term "xanthos" in the context of Achilles likely meant blond or reddish blond and not just brown. What I find a bit disappointing is that you don't even bother to read my comments carefully. I said that Brad Pitt was ethnically speaking not a good choice but that he still portrayed the character Achilles beautifully.

I was talking about the aesthetics here and not about historical accuracy. What's wrong with that? That said, I rightfully pointed out that Pitt resembles more the Roman depictions of Achilles than the black actor. You are free to disagree with me on that. In addition, Greeks freaked out about the black Achilles but were rather cool with Brad playing their mythological hero. Btw, how many Greek actors are in Hollywood that could play in blockbusters that attract millions of viewers? Furthermore, Anfänger wrote a comment to me, Am I not allowed to respond to him to explain my case?

It's normal that people who happened to be blond and blue-eyed themselves to be interested in the origin of blond hair and blue eyes or historical people with similar phenotypes, for that matter.

For goodness' sake is it possible to talk about blond hair, blue eyes, and Steppe people or highly attractive blonds without folks thinking you're going full Stormfront or summoning up some Nazi demons? Sorry, but I had to rant here since I want to express my opinion about physical traits or ancestral groups without being pushed into a corner or being put under general suspicion. It's just not fair.

I have looked at the threads you have started and the posts you have written. The vast majority of them are about pigmentation, and specifically about the rise of the blonde hair and blue eyed phenotype combination in Europe.

It's as if that's your only reason for being here. In addition, you don't present ALL the papers which discuss the issue, but only the ones which support the point of view that somehow it's a steppic trait.

I'm not accusing you of being a Nazi, in fact, you seem like a nice, civil, guy. However, if that's not an obsession, then I don't know what one is.

Now, if you want to start threads on new papers on pigmentation as they come out, that's your privilege as a member here, but I'm not going to allow you or anyone else to de-rail academic threads by doing a deep dive into questions of pigmentation.

As to Achilles, yes, I watched Troy, and I quite enjoyed looking at his musculature. Heck, looking at him was probably the reason some women allowed themselves to be dragged to the theater, but Brad Pitt as an actor, even if Hollywood was correct in believing he would bring people to the theaters, is wooden and totally unconvincing in the part, and doesn't, imo, look anything like Achilles would have looked. A blonde Mycenaean would still have looked like a Mycenaean, imo. In life as in the movie, I was always cheering on the doomed Hector anyway. I detest everything about Achilles as a character.

However, better Brad Pitt than a black Achilles. I detest this mania for changing the race of historical or quasi historical characters, or even straying too far from the source material in well loved fiction like that of Tolkien. It's off-putting and inauthentic. There's plenty of wonderful material about actual Africans and African-Americans, which indeed should be made, and modern material as well. Some of the most well made and moving films I've ever watched feature African Americans, from Roots, to A Raisin in the Sun, and a Patch of Blue, to Glory, and on and on. There's no need for this woke falsity in our arts.

[torzio]

The black Achilles in that TV Show was a complete miscast and terribly gone wrong, it's completely on the opposite edge of Brad Pitt who in fact played the character quite good. If they wanted to put a black character they had the script ready made from Homer himself, Memnon the king of Aethiopia who was one of the most powerful fighters in Iliad next to Achilles and Hector. Homer states that he was almost Achilles equal, perhaps even stronger than Hector, he killed Nestor son, then Nestor pleaded Achilles to revenge his son. It's probably a fiction for sure, but genuine fiction from the originator himself.

Anyway, the TV Show was a complete failure.

Aethopia was not really ethiopia in the ancient world ...........it was also all of North-Africa ( from morocco to libya )
Both Herodotus[5] and Strabo[6] "speak of two Ethiopias, one eastern, the other western". Strabo also said that the ancient Greeks "designated as Ethiopia the whole of the southern countries towards the ocean", not just a region near Egypt.
Ptolemy wrote of the Aethiopians and the Melanogaetulians, and compares this to the mention by Orosius of the Libyo-aethopians.
Oric Bates places the Aethiopians in Morocco and the Melanogaetulians just to the east of them.

even the Ethopian sea was next to Morocco
Aethiopian, Æthiopian,[1] Æthiopic or Ethiopian Sea or Ocean (Latin: Æthiopicum Mare or Oceanus Æthiopicus; Arabic: البحر الأثيوبي) was the name given to the southern half of the Atlantic Ocean in classical geographical works.

Aethiopia, as a generic or ethnic designation, comprises the inhabitants of Africa who dwelt between the equator, the Red Sea, and the Atlantic, for Strabo speaks of Hesperian Aethiopians S. of the Pharusii and Mauri, and Herodotus (4.197) describes them as occupying the whole of South Libya. The name Aethiopians is probably Semitic, and if indigenous, certainly so, since the Aethiopic language is pure Semitic. Mr. Salt says that to this day the Abyssinians call themselves Itiopjawan. The Greek geographers however, derived the name from αἴθω--ὤψ, and applied it to all the sun-burnt dark-com-plexioned races above Egypt. Herodotus (3.94, 7.70) indeed speaks of Aethiopians of Asia, whom he probably so designated from their being of a darker hue than their immediate neighbours. Like the Aethiopians of the Nile, they were tributary to Persia in the reign of Darius. They were a straight-haired race, while their Libyan namesakes were, according to the historian, woolly-haired. But the expression (οὐλότατον τρίχωμα) must not be construed too literally, as neither the ancient Aethiopians, as depictured on the monuments, nor their modern representatives, the Bisháries and Shangallas, have, strictly speaking, the negro-hair. The Asiatic Aethiopians were an equestrian people, wearing crests and head armour made of the hide and manes of horses



I have even read that Memnon came from Susa in Persia

IMO...Memnon came to Troy via Libya ( the know western greek part of Libya )

[torzio]

For me the only confusing part about the Etruscans is regarding Proto-Villanovan ties with Pannonian Urnfield Cultures, was the Urnfield/Proto-VIllanovan driven by some invasion/migration or just cultural adoptions, were the Proto-Etruscans just native Early Bronze Age native descended or some Urnfield migrants mixed with native EBA population?

I thought that the Etruscan connection with Proto-Villanovan ( Bavarians and Austrian lands ) was dismissed in recent years ......and the Etruscan connection was only with Villanovan only from circa 850BC

Also Etruscans have no link with Proto-Villanovan sample R1 from picene lands circa 930BC

[Philjames100]

Aethopia was not really ethiopia in the ancient world ...........it was also all of North-Africa ( from morocco to libya )
Both Herodotus[5] and Strabo[6] "speak of two Ethiopias, one eastern, the other western". Strabo also said that the ancient Greeks "designated as Ethiopia the whole of the southern countries towards the ocean", not just a region near Egypt.
Ptolemy wrote of the Aethiopians and the Melanogaetulians, and compares this to the mention by Orosius of the Libyo-aethopians.
Oric Bates places the Aethiopians in Morocco and the Melanogaetulians just to the east of them.
even the Ethopian sea was next to Morocco
Aethiopian, Æthiopian,[1] Æthiopic or Ethiopian Sea or Ocean (Latin: Æthiopicum Mare or Oceanus Æthiopicus; Arabic: البحر الأثيوبي) was the name given to the southern half of the Atlantic Ocean in classical geographical works.
Aethiopia, as a generic or ethnic designation, comprises the inhabitants of Africa who dwelt between the equator, the Red Sea, and the Atlantic, for Strabo speaks of Hesperian Aethiopians S. of the Pharusii and Mauri, and Herodotus (4.197) describes them as occupying the whole of South Libya. The name Aethiopians is probably Semitic, and if indigenous, certainly so, since the Aethiopic language is pure Semitic. Mr. Salt says that to this day the Abyssinians call themselves Itiopjawan. The Greek geographers however, derived the name from αἴθω--ὤψ, and applied it to all the sun-burnt dark-com-plexioned races above Egypt. Herodotus (3.94, 7.70) indeed speaks of Aethiopians of Asia, whom he probably so designated from their being of a darker hue than their immediate neighbours. Like the Aethiopians of the Nile, they were tributary to Persia in the reign of Darius. They were a straight-haired race, while their Libyan namesakes were, according to the historian, woolly-haired. But the expression (οὐλότατον τρίχωμα) must not be construed too literally, as neither the ancient Aethiopians, as depictured on the monuments, nor their modern representatives, the Bisháries and Shangallas, have, strictly speaking, the negro-hair. The Asiatic Aethiopians were an equestrian people, wearing crests and head armour made of the hide and manes of horses
I have even read that Memnon came from Susa in Persia
IMO...Memnon came to Troy via Libya ( the know western greek part of Libya )

Memnon wasn't even an Ethiopian, he was a Trojan who became the king of the Ethiopians.

[Pax Augusta]

For me the only confusing part about the Etruscans is regarding Proto-Villanovan ties with Pannonian Urnfield Cultures, was the Urnfield/Proto-VIllanovan driven by some invasion/migration or just cultural adoptions, were the Proto-Etruscans just native Early Bronze Age native descended or some Urnfield migrants mixed with native EBA population?

I think we have already talked about it. The Proto-Villanovan culture is a supranational Italian Bronze age facies. A widespread material culture among the ancestors of several peoples in Preroman Italy, which, by a phenomenon that Italian archaeologists have called 'regionalisation', gives rise to consequent Iron Age facies that correspond to the many ethnos of Preroman Italy: Villanovan culture (Etruscans), Latial culture (Latins), Atestine culture (Ancient Veneti) ...

The problem is in the name that creates confusion for the Etruscans. Why is the Bronze Age culture called Proto-Villanovan and the Iron Age culture of the Etruscans called Villanovan? Because Italian archaeologists first discovered the Iron Age Villanovan culture in the mid-19th century, named after Villanova, a hamlet of Castenaso near Bologna, then in the 1930s discovered the Proto-Villanovan culture, initially thinking it was only ancestral to the Iron Age Villanovan culture. Although it was proven subsequently to be supranational, the name was never changed, and this is still confusing today.

For your specific question, for archaeologists the links with Pannonian Urnfield Cultures are in the material culture of course. To answer your question, we would need genetic analysis, but as we know, they practised incineration the most.

There are archaeologists, I am going by memory, who admit both hypotheses. For the Etruscans, recent archaeological studies have concluded that a component in the Late Bronze Age arrived via the northern Balkans from the Carpathian-Pannonian basin may have participated in the ethnogenesis of the Etruscans. It is likely a warrior component, and conclusions are based on certain helmets that have parallels in both the Etruscan world and the Pannonian-Carpathian basin. If we look at the uniparental markers of the Etruscans analysed so far, we can infer that a small component did indeed arrive (could the two J2b-L283 be part of it?) and that it mixed with the native MBA population (which potentially was itself a mix of R1b Bell Beakers with the earlier G2a Neolithic layer and the almost disappeared I2a...).

You know, only genetic analyses of the Bronze Age can give us some more definitive answers.

[torzio]

Obsession is a very strong word with, what I believe to be, a negative undertone. In my case, you can say I have a great interest in or a healthy curiosity about the development of human pigmentation or phenotype. The authors of many genetic papers seem to share this interest with me. Others are rather more enthusiastic about haplogroups. Nevertheless, I'm fine with you thinking I'm obsessed with pigmentation as long you don't have the wrong impression that it comes from a bad place or me being a jerk. So, I'm glad that you don't have this bad and wrong impression of me given the fact, that you've expressed several times that as a veteran you have dealt with all kinds of loons.
Moreover, I genuinely appreciate that you can separate disagreement from personal dislike. Many people hate you as soon you don‘t agree with them. Concerning many topics, I'm on the same page with you, just when it comes to Steppe ancestry or blond hair I see things differently. Anyway, allow me to clarify certain things. You probably briefly overviewed my threads and eyeballed my recent comments/replies and thus came to this conclusion which I find exaggerated. To reduce my over 640 comments on my assertions about and take on the origin of blond hair and blue eyes doesn't fit the facts. By and large, the threads I've started were posts of studies about Neolithic Europeans, BA Greeks, Italians, Balkans, and IA Europeans. To a lesser degree, I shared papers about Paleo-Eurasians, Africans, and Arabs. However, my two earliest started threads were indeed about pigmentation but not specifically about blond or blue eyes but rather about the development of the skin color of Eurasians.
The point is that many studies include phenotype analysis which I brought up in my postings to share with members that are interested. Even the current papers, such as the Estonian, Southern Arc, and Ancient Greek army studies contained predictions of pigmentation and mention the presence of blondism/blue eyes or lack thereof. If my memory serves me right, there is no thread that I have posted that was about Indo-Europeans or isolated about blond hair or blue eyes. Since I'm not really convinced that EEF ancestry is entirely or solely responsible for blondism in Europeans of course I refer to other studies to make a case. Normal. Besides, it's not true that I'm being one-sided because I cite different papers. Plus, I showed a current study that suggests that blond hair comes from Steppe AND Anatolian farmer ancestry. Once again, I'm all good with disagreement as long we all don't take it or get personal. And also I hope that we have finally sorted this issue out.

skin pigmentation is even very different in siblings .................here are sisters relatives of me......both blue eyes ( if this also interestes you )


basically skin pigmentation and hair colour are useless in determining ancestry

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FKv8UYyiNbY

[torzio]

Memnon wasn't even an Ethiopian, he was a Trojan who became the king of the Ethiopians.

I agree there where no Ethiopians in the Trojan war ...........image Ethiopians trying to get to troy ....passing through formidable Nubia and Egypt before arriving in hittite lands

I cannot even recall if there was sea access from the red sea to the Med at that time

[Wanderer]

Says he was ethiopian. Not just king of ethiopians
But may not necessarily mean he was ethiopian proper.
And he was maybe mixed race egyptian.

From wiki

Memnon hailed from "Aethiopia", a geographical area in Africa, usually south of Egypt. Because the original historical work by Arctinus of Miletus only survives in fragments, most of what is known about Memnon comes from post-Homeric Greek and Roman writers. Homer only makes passing mention to Memnon in the Odyssey.[6]

Herodotus called Susa "the city of Memnon,"[7] Herodotus describes two tall statues with Egyptian and Aethiopian dress that some, he says, identify as Memnon; he disagrees, having previously stated that he believes it to be Sesostris.[8] One of the statues was on the road from Smyrna to Sardis.[9] Herodotus described a carved figure matching this description near the old road from Smyrna to Sardis.[10]

Pausanias describes how he marveled at a colossal statue in Egypt, having been told that Memnon began his travels in Africa:

In Egyptian Thebes, on crossing the Nile to the so-called Pipes, I saw a statue, still sitting, which gave out a sound. The many call it Memnon, who they say from Aethiopia overran Egypt and as far as Susa. The Thebans, however, say that it is a statue, not of Memnon, but of a native named Phamenoph, and I have heard some say that it is Sesostris. This statue was broken in two by Cambyses, and at the present day from head to middle it is thrown down; but the rest is seated, and every day at the rising of the sun it makes a noise, and the sound one could best liken to that of a harp or lyre when a string has been broken.[11]

Philostratus of Lemnos in his work Imagines, describes artwork of a scene which depicts Memnon:

Now such is the scene in Homer, but the events depicted by the painter are as follows: Memnon coming from Aethiopia slays Antilochus, who has thrown himself in front of this father, and he seems to strike terror among the Achaeans – for before Memnon's time black men were but a subject for story – and the Achaeans, gaining possession of the body, lament Antilochus, both the sons of Atreus and the Ithacan and the son of Tydeus and the two heroes of the same name.[12]

According to Manetho Memnon and the 8th Pharaoh of the 18th dynasty Amenophis was one and the same king.[13]

.....
When Memnon died, Eos mourned greatly over the death of her son, and made the light of her brother, Helios (Sun), to fade, and begged Nyx (Night), to come out earlier, so she could be able to freely steal her son's body undetected by the armies of the Greeks and the Trojans.[17] After his death, Eos, perhaps with the help of Hypnos and Thanatos, the gods of sleep and death respectively, transported the slain Memnon's dead body back to Aethiopia,[18] and also asked Zeus to make Memnon immortal, a wish he granted.[19]

There are statues of Amenhotep III in the Theban Necropolis in Egypt that were known to the Romans as the Colossi of Memnon. According to Pliny the Elder and others, one statue made a sound at morning time.[20

[Wanderer]

Other than he was a decendant of dardanus. Hailing from Tarquina in italy, samothrace or Arcadia

[Wanderer]

Maybe this is why greeks score high west asian / north african. Compared to other europeans. Maybe also why they have e1b.
But e1b is not as common outside the balkans in europe. We know egyptians also branched far up to chaldea as the chaldeans are decendants of egyptians as well. We know e1b arrives much later then J-L283 into europe

[torzio]

Says he was ethiopian. Not just king of ethiopians
But may not necessarily mean he was ethiopian proper.
And he was maybe mixed race egyptian.

From wiki

Memnon hailed from "Aethiopia", a geographical area in Africa, usually south of Egypt. Because the original historical work by Arctinus of Miletus only survives in fragments, most of what is known about Memnon comes from post-Homeric Greek and Roman writers. Homer only makes passing mention to Memnon in the Odyssey.[6]

Herodotus called Susa "the city of Memnon,"[7] Herodotus describes two tall statues with Egyptian and Aethiopian dress that some, he says, identify as Memnon; he disagrees, having previously stated that he believes it to be Sesostris.[8] One of the statues was on the road from Smyrna to Sardis.[9] Herodotus described a carved figure matching this description near the old road from Smyrna to Sardis.[10]

Pausanias describes how he marveled at a colossal statue in Egypt, having been told that Memnon began his travels in Africa:

In Egyptian Thebes, on crossing the Nile to the so-called Pipes, I saw a statue, still sitting, which gave out a sound. The many call it Memnon, who they say from Aethiopia overran Egypt and as far as Susa. The Thebans, however, say that it is a statue, not of Memnon, but of a native named Phamenoph, and I have heard some say that it is Sesostris. This statue was broken in two by Cambyses, and at the present day from head to middle it is thrown down; but the rest is seated, and every day at the rising of the sun it makes a noise, and the sound one could best liken to that of a harp or lyre when a string has been broken.[11]

Philostratus of Lemnos in his work Imagines, describes artwork of a scene which depicts Memnon:

Now such is the scene in Homer, but the events depicted by the painter are as follows: Memnon coming from Aethiopia slays Antilochus, who has thrown himself in front of this father, and he seems to strike terror among the Achaeans – for before Memnon's time black men were but a subject for story – and the Achaeans, gaining possession of the body, lament Antilochus, both the sons of Atreus and the Ithacan and the son of Tydeus and the two heroes of the same name.[12]

According to Manetho Memnon and the 8th Pharaoh of the 18th dynasty Amenophis was one and the same king.[13]

.....
When Memnon died, Eos mourned greatly over the death of her son, and made the light of her brother, Helios (Sun), to fade, and begged Nyx (Night), to come out earlier, so she could be able to freely steal her son's body undetected by the armies of the Greeks and the Trojans.[17] After his death, Eos, perhaps with the help of Hypnos and Thanatos, the gods of sleep and death respectively, transported the slain Memnon's dead body back to Aethiopia,[18] and also asked Zeus to make Memnon immortal, a wish he granted.[19]

There are statues of Amenhotep III in the Theban Necropolis in Egypt that were known to the Romans as the Colossi of Memnon. According to Pliny the Elder and others, one statue made a sound at morning time.[20

where is Susa ?...............the only Susa I know is in Persia....capital of Persia

[Angela]

@Wanderer,

I guess I'm going to have to go over this one more time for the challenged.

The writings of the ancients, INCLUDING Homer, are NOT history; they are recountings of vaguely remembered events in the distant past. For crying out loud, the poor Greeks even forgot how to write in the Dark Ages. You think they remembered each Mycenaean leader who took part, or each event, or even why the war actually took place?

IT IS FICTION. Beautifully written, but FICTION, NOT HISTORY. It's certainly NOT GENETICS.

The movement of CHG/Iran Neo like ancestry in combination with Anatolian Neolithic ancestry didn't cease coming into Europe with the end of the Neolithic, but picked up in the Bronze Age, resulting in a south/north cline. Also, the CHG/Iran Neo percentage of the whole INCREASED with time.

If you want to understand the ethnogenesis of the Mycenaeans, there are two very good papers on the subject, both by Lazaridis. READ THEM if you want to understand it, and stop posting nonsense.

THERE IS NO EVIDENCE FOR EGYPTIAN OR ETHIOPIAN INPUT INTO THE MYCENAEANS.

Now stop posting nonsense.

[Wanderer]

@Wanderer,

I guess I'm going to have to go over this one more time for the challenged.

The writings of the ancients, INCLUDING Homer, are NOT history; they are recountings of vaguely remembered events in the distant past. For crying out loud, the poor Greeks even forgot how to write in the Dark Ages. You think they remembered each Mycenaean leader who took part, or each event, or even why the war actually took place?

IT IS FICTION. Beautifully written, but FICTION, NOT HISTORY. It's certainly NOT GENETICS.

The movement of CHG/Iran Neo like ancestry in combination with Anatolian Neolithic ancestry didn't cease coming into Europe with the end of the Neolithic, but picked up in the Bronze Age, resulting in a south/north cline. Also, the CHG/Iran Neo percentage of the whole INCREASED with time.

If you want to understand the ethnogenesis of the Mycenaeans, there are two very good papers on the subject, both by Lazaridis. READ THEM if you want to understand it, and stop posting nonsense.

THERE IS NO EVIDENCE FOR EGYPTIAN OR ETHIOPIAN INPUT INTO THE MYCENAEANS.

Now stop posting nonsense.

@Wanderer,

I guess I'm going to have to go over this one more time for the challenged.

The writings of the ancients, INCLUDING Homer, are NOT history; they are recountings of vaguely remembered events in the distant past. For crying out loud, the poor Greeks even forgot how to write in the Dark Ages. You think they remembered each Mycenaean leader who took part, or each event, or even why the war actually took place?

IT IS FICTION. Beautifully written, but FICTION, NOT HISTORY. It's certainly NOT GENETICS.

The movement of CHG/Iran Neo like ancestry in combination with Anatolian Neolithic ancestry didn't cease coming into Europe with the end of the Neolithic, but picked up in the Bronze Age, resulting in a south/north cline. Also, the CHG/Iran Neo percentage of the whole INCREASED with time.

If you want to understand the ethnogenesis of the Mycenaeans, there are two very good papers on the subject, both by Lazaridis. READ THEM if you want to understand it, and stop posting nonsense.

THERE IS NO EVIDENCE FOR EGYPTIAN OR ETHIOPIAN INPUT INTO THE MYCENAEANS.

Now stop posting nonsense.

Of course its "fiction"
Just like the city of troy was

https://www.quora.com/Im-Greek-from-...s-be-explained
At 1:30 4 pop shows plenty of Algerian

[Wanderer]

Of course its "fiction"
Just like the city of troy was

https://www.quora.com/Im-Greek-from-...s-be-explained
At 1:30 4 pop shows plenty of Algerian

Also most greeks didnt have atheiopian origin.
Memnon did though as its said.
The athenians did have egyptian ancestry back then as the ancient author tells us.
Heracles was egyptian with egyptian phenotype. The real ancient hercules. The other hercules thats more recent was named aclaeus. He was called heracles after the real heracles.

[Angela]

Of course its "fiction"
Just like the city of troy was

https://www.quora.com/Im-Greek-from-...s-be-explained
At 1:30 4 pop shows plenty of Algerian

Did I say there wasn't a war? Problem is that the level at which there is evidence at that site of the settlement being destroyed doesn't match at Homer's account. Plus, my clear implication was that you couldn't trust the details of the story.

If you can't understand the subtleties of an argument in written English, perhaps you should find another hobby. Perhaps one related to Algeria?

Btw, amateur results on these kinds of calculators are in no way dispositive, in addition to the fact that Algerians have a lot of "farmer" and some "CHG", so of course thereight be some overlap.

Why don't you spend some time reading academic papers? Then you'd understand these things.

[torzio]

Of course its "fiction"
Just like the city of troy was

https://www.quora.com/Im-Greek-from-...s-be-explained
At 1:30 4 pop shows plenty of Algerian

Troy existed, what are you talking about ?

9 cities found one on top of each other .................Troy #6 is the one with fire markings................city was fortified with wood and moat...citadel was in stone.......held about 8000 people..........the Troy dig is still going on after 30 years by german archeologists

did a 10 year siege exist.....no way.........maybe a 10 month siege seems more likely

[bigsnake49]

Troy existed, what are you talking about ?
9 cities found one on top of each other .................Troy #6 is the one with fire markings................city was fortified with wood and moat...citadel was in stone.......held about 8000 people..........the Troy dig is still going on after 30 years by german archeologists
did a 10 year siege exist.....no way.........maybe a 10 month siege seems more likely

Even a 10 month siege is way too ambitious. The time frame of the fall of Troy is right at the rise of the Sea People and the fall of the Mycenaeans. I am not sure from what we know of the Sea People that they had the means or the numbers to mount such a long siege.

[Angela]

Of course its "fiction"
Just like the city of troy was

https://www.quora.com/Im-Greek-from-...s-be-explained
At 1:30 4 pop shows plenty of Algerian

Of all the lame excuses for scientific evidence, this must receive some sort of prize: youtube videos probably posted by you or other intellectually challenged members of the worst anthrofora sites!

[Angela]

My Heritage is the worst testing company out there. They use or at least used to use Ashkenazim and Sephardim as reference samples for West Asians. It's like using Central Asians as reference samples for East Asians.

In other words: NOT KOSHER to use such admixed samples as references for any one component.

[Philjames100]

Says he was ethiopian. Not just king of ethiopians
But may not necessarily mean he was ethiopian proper.
And he was maybe mixed race egyptian.

According to ancient Greek poets, Memnon's father Tithonus was snatched away from Troy by the goddess of dawn Eos and was taken to the ends of the earth on the coast of Oceanus.[14] According to Hesiod Eos bore to Tithonus bronzed armed Memnon, the King of the Aethiopians

In Greek mythology, Tithonus was the lover of Eos, Goddess of the Dawn.[i] He was a prince of Troy, the son of King Laomedon by the Naiad Strymo (Στρυμώ).[ii]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memnon
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tithonus


T19.2Eos.jpg

^ Eos and the body of Memnon
https://www.theoi.com/Gallery/T19.2.html

[Wanderer]

According to ancient Greek poets, Memnon's father Tithonus was snatched away from Troy by the goddess of dawn Eos and was taken to the ends of the earth on the coast of Oceanus.[14] According to Hesiod Eos bore to Tithonus bronzed armed Memnon, the King of the Aethiopians

In Greek mythology, Tithonus was the lover of Eos, Goddess of the Dawn.[i] He was a prince of Troy, the son of King Laomedon by the Naiad Strymo (Στρυμώ).[ii]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memnon
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tithonus


T19.2Eos.jpg

^ Eos and the body of Memnon
https://www.theoi.com/Gallery/T19.2.html

This is a depiction way after memnon existance more than hundreds of years later in ancient times.
Its like when the church depicts jesus as nordic when we know he was middle eastern.

Laomedons lineage leads to dardanus
And elecktra.

Dardanus lineage leads to Zues, zues is the equivalent to Amun- zues of egypt. An egyptian god
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amun
This is the real zues

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amun...865505031).jpg


As the chief deity of Egyptian Empire, Amun-Ra also came to be worshipped outside Egypt, according to the testimony of ancient Greek historiographers in Libya and Nubia. As Zeus-Ammon, he came to be identified with Zeus in Greece.

Electra is daughter of atlas who was a north african god of atlantis as the atlas mountains were located there and the mauri people king was named atlas.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlas_(mythology)

Lineage leads to Uranus or Ouranos
Equivelanys to Caelus or Amun.
CAELUS leads to Chaos
Amun goes back to mesopotamia
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anu

[real expert]

@Real expert

They even made Zeus black, it is completely unwatchable.

Someone tried to justify it to me by saying they were fictional characters, so it didn't matter...
......

According to liberals that are very much in favor of the so-called diverse representation saying that black Achilles is unwatchable makes you a racist. Mind you, the wokes love to condemn whitewashing as racist while simultaneously rooting for and aggressively defending blackwashing. By their logic blackwashing is great and if you're against it- you are a racist. Here's the thing, liberal leftists are not always but often disingenuous, and deceptive. They indulge in playing mind games and make all kinds of lame excuses to push their propaganda and control the narrative. That's why the liberal progressives are rewriting history under the pretense to counter white supremacy and empower POC. The reality is, that the film industry with the support of intellectuals is not only blackwashing mythological, fictional European figures, but also systemically real, historical people in the name of color-blind casting, inclusion, and representation. For instance, in a historical movie about Anne Boylen and Henry VIII, the Queen of England who was a real white woman was portrayed by a black actress Jodie Turner-Smith. Likewise in fake BBC historical documentaries, the medieval English Queen Margaret of Anjou, a general and chief adviser to the Norman Conqueror William I, were shown as black. Besides, when following BBC, the average Roman family in Roman Britain were POC, and most of the Roman legionaries were black and they fought tribal celts with some blacks thrown in. Furthermore, one Irish guy told me online that watched a documentary about medieval Ireland with black friars and monks. Netflix which has gone woke for a while now made a Viking movie where the Norwegian Viking King, Jarl Haakon was a black Viking Queen. Moreover, Netflix Bridgeton depicts Regency-era Britain as a diverse place where interracial love was normal and accepted, white and black aristocrats were among themselves and a black Queen Charlotte was ruling. Even Caesar, the Finnish military leader and statesman Carl Gustaf Emil Mannerheim, and Joan Arc couldn't escape the blackwashing.


Anyway, you can see now people going around saying and thinking that Roman Britain was full of POC, that black Vikings were real, medieval Europe was ruled by black rulers, and black people were an integral part of the Regency era of British history and the top-notch members of society. The point is, that historical movies that are extremely incorrect are problematic since history movies shape the way people think about the past. Therefore, in my opinion, blackwashing is bad just as much as whitewashing is because it's disrespectful to true history and to the heritage of other people. And yet in the typical leftist lying fashion liberals and the media either defend or outright deny the obvious blackwashing of European history by engaging in word games and sophistry. They say skin color and ethnicity are not defining parts of the identity of historical people unless they are black of course. That's why color-blind casting is only fine when it goes one way.

For illustrative purposes, here are some articles and headlines on the internet.


"No, the BBC is not 'blackwashing' Troy: Fall of a City"

https://www.radiotimes.com/tv/drama/...rs-greek-myth/

"Alt-right commentator gets 'schooled' by historian over diversity in Roman Britain".

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...versity-roman/

"Mary Beard is right, Roman Britain was multi-ethnic – so why does this upset people so much?"

https://theconversation.com/mary-bea...-so-much-82269

"Writer of Bridgerton defends black Queen Charlotte | News | The Times"
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/w...otte-2rv985j5m

"TV Is Unwhitewashing History One Character, Period, and Genre at a Time."
https://www.indiewire.com/2019/03/tv...bc-1202049639/


Blackwashing white/European history is called unwhitewashing, as if white/European history was actually black history.

Mind f*ckery at its finest.

[real expert]

The black Achilles in that TV Show was a complete miscast and terribly gone wrong, it's completely on the opposite edge of Brad Pitt who in fact played the character quite good. If they wanted to put a black character they had the script ready made from Homer himself, Memnon the king of Aethiopia who was one of the most powerful fighters in Iliad next to Achilles and Hector. Homer states that he was almost Achilles equal, perhaps even stronger than Hector, he killed Nestor son, then Nestor pleaded Achilles to revenge his son. It's probably a fiction for sure, but genuine fiction from the originator himself.

Anyway, the TV Show was a complete failure.

I see exactly what you mean! I believe BBC intentionally missed the opportunity to include Memnon in the movie. They should've cast David Gaysi as Memnon instead of Achilles. He would've been a good choice in that regard. Likewise, there would be "inclusion", and "representation" without going against the original story by changing the ethnicity of Achilles. The truth of the matter is, that BBC only cares about tokenism and divisive content. Thus they love to insert their SJW agenda and identity politics into history, in this case, Greek history. In any case, the inclusion of Memnon would've made an awesome storyline, he arrived with a massive army to Troy, equaled Achilles in fighting skill, and even made Achilles bleed to the total shock of the Greeks. Besides, there are numerous depictions of the fight between Memnon and Achilles on clay vessels and reliefs because they were the type of heroes and pairs of warriors that were very appreciated in the Greek artistic representation.

[real expert]

I'd like to point out that Homer only briefly mentions Memnon in the Odyssey, and he is essentially a posthomeric hero. Therefore there were different Greek traditions about Memnon. According to one tradition, he was the King of the Ethiopians but not himself an Ethiopian, whereas others identified him as Ethiopian and accordingly black. In some traditions, Memnon was a Persian general from Susa. In fact, in Greek art, Memnon was depicted with a Caucasian physiognomy but sometimes with black/SSA features. Philostratus, for instance, distinguishes between a Trojan and an Ethiopian Memnon, and believes that the former, who was very young and did not distinguish himself till after the death of Hector, slew Antilochus; and he adds, that Achilles, after having avenged his friend, burnt the armor and head of Memnon on the funeral pile of Antilochus.

So, Memnon was an ambiguous character in terms of his ethnic background, however, Achilles wasn't. On the contrary, Achilles wasn't black in any form, shape, or fashion. No room for speculation or debates here.

[Jovialis]

@real expert

There cannot even be a dialogue between people that we call the "left" and people with who simply see the world, history, and science for what it is (so-called right wing). The time for talk is over, I think we need to start thinking about how we can remove these people from power. However, this also seems to be happening naturally. The failure of the show in ratings is a repudiation. At any rate, I don't want to get too far off topic in this thread.