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Thread: Genetic History of Anatolia during Holocene

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    I have tired to look for the samples, and I have also asked Salento to see if he could find him. But unfortunately, we could not. If someone could at least retrieve the source, it would be most appreciated.

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    Quote Originally Posted by real expert View Post
    I'd like to point out that Homer only briefly mentions Memnon in the Odyssey, and he is essentially a posthomeric hero. Therefore there were different Greek traditions about Memnon. According to one tradition, he was the King of the Ethiopians but not himself an Ethiopian, whereas others identified him as Ethiopian and accordingly black. In some traditions, Memnon was a Persian general from Susa. In fact, in Greek art, Memnon was depicted with a Caucasian physiognomy but sometimes with black/SSA features. Philostratus, for instance, distinguishes between a Trojan and an Ethiopian Memnon, and believes that the former, who was very young and did not distinguish himself till after the death of Hector, slew Antilochus; and he adds, that Achilles, after having avenged his friend, burnt the armor and head of Memnon on the funeral pile of Antilochus.

    So, Memnon was an ambiguous character in terms of his ethnic background, however, Achilles wasn't. On the contrary, Achilles wasn't black in any form, shape, or fashion. No room for speculation or debates here.
    What matters is what the actual person who mentioned him Homer referred to him, he mentioned him as an Ethiopian and not Trojan. Latter traditions and quite recently fantasize how Trojan refugees founded all European crown houses. Anyway, my contextual argument was that they had space for an important black character with solid source, but they shot themselves on the feet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by real expert View Post
    I see exactly what you mean! I believe BBC intentionally missed the opportunity to include Memnon in the movie. They should've cast David Gaysi as Memnon instead of Achilles. He would've been a good choice in that regard. Likewise, there would be "inclusion", and "representation" without going against the original story by changing the ethnicity of Achilles. The truth of the matter is, that BBC only cares about tokenism and divisive content. Thus they love to insert their SJW agenda and identity politics into history, in this case, Greek history. In any case, the inclusion of Memnon would've made an awesome storyline, he arrived with a massive army to Troy, equaled Achilles in fighting skill, and even made Achilles bleed to the total shock of the Greeks. Besides, there are numerous depictions of the fight between Memnon and Achilles on clay vessels and reliefs because they were the type of heroes and pairs of warriors that were very appreciated in the Greek artistic representation.
    Memnon probably wasnt even european.
    Achilles was european likely.

    You think thats rediculous? The solutrean hypothesis was way more rediculous with not even any ancient authors to mention it. Neither is the the theory of spaniards migrating to the americas themselves ancient times and mixing with indigenous peoples.


    After the long documentary guess what they concluded....
    The chachapoyan are a mestizo population of spaniards and indigenous natives in a former spanish colony of Americas

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    What matters is what the actual person who mentioned him Homer referred to him, he mentioned him as an Ethiopian and not Trojan. Latter traditions and quite recently fantasize how Trojan refugees founded all European crown houses. Anyway, my contextual argument was that they had space for an important black character with solid source, but they shot themselves on the feet.
    Homer doesn't say anything about Memnon except that he was handsome.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
    This is a depiction way after memnon existance more than hundreds of years later in ancient times.
    Its like when the church depicts jesus as nordic when we know he was middle eastern.

    Laomedons lineage leads to dardanus
    And elecktra.

    Dardanus lineage leads to Zues, zues is the equivalent to Amun- zues of egypt. An egyptian god
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amun
    This is the real zues
    No, Amun is not 'the real Zeus'. Zeus is from proto-Indo-European Dyeus Phter (Sky Father). Zeus is most certainly not a god adopted by the Greeks from Egypt. The most you could say, speculatively, is that they have a common origin.

    Danaus, Cadmus etc were Greeks, descended from Inachus the king of Argos. That's why Danaus returns to Greece, the land of his ancestors, and claims the throne of Argos.

    If you want to mix mythology with DNA, I might as well point out that 18th dynasty pharaohs of Egypt Amenhotep III, Akhenaten and Tutankhamun had Y-DNA R1b-M269, an Indo-European lineage, and Amenhotep III also had mtDNA H2b, an Indo-Aryan lineage, inherited from his Mitanni mother.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Philjames100 View Post
    Homer doesn't say anything about Memnon except that he was handsome.
    He says he is Ethiopian King, and we can all assume what he might be, and what a king of certain tribe during Late Bronze Age might be from ancestry, especially to tribalistic places.

    Anyway, as i already mentioned the person extremely likely didn't even exist and our argument was completely different, we were arguing about blackwashing of characters and what they had in table as reasonable inclusion of David Gyasi as Memnon instead of Achilles, and you jumped to another extreme whitewashing. Let's stay on middle reasonable ground.

    A Trojan to be crowned a king in Ethiopia, which population had different facial features and colour, he would last maximum 1 month before he choked to death from poisoned food. I doubt the local elite would just give power like that to a single person with no military backup, humans back then were extremely tribalistic and superstitious, especially somewhere down the Sahara.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    He says he is Ethiopian King
    He doesn't even say that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    you jumped to another extreme whitewashing.
    Is this whitewashing?

    T19.2Eos.jpg

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    Would really like to compare Theopetra and Sarakenos to modern populations. And also o Iron Age Paeonians, Illyrians and Logas. I wonder if the 'Balkans' encirclement includes mainland Greece. Seems to me that Sarakenos is very similar to Cretans, while Theopetra might be very similar to mainland Greece today.

    So far Sarakenos, Theopetra, Logas 01 and 02, Crete_Armenoi and the Marathon sample seem to be closer to modern Greeks than the four Mycenaeans of the Lazaridis study. And out of those four Mycenaens, two were from Crete. I leave out all the other specimens, because they are either from Sicily or Spain. Who knows who they may have intermixed with. That makes me think whether the earlier image we had developed for Mycenaens is correct. We only have two out of a total of zeven Ancient Greeks from the mainland with a low rate of steppe vs Minoan (1:10). They other five are more like 1:5, or even 1:4.
    Last edited by Dianatomia; 23-10-22 at 22:52.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dianatomia View Post
    Would really like to compare Theopetra and Sarakenos to modern populations. And also o Iron Age Paeonians, Illyrians and Logas. I wonder if the 'Balkans' encirclement includes mainland Greece. Seems to me that Sarakenos is very similar to Cretans, while Theopetra might be very similar to mainland Greece today.

    So far Sarakenos, Theopetra, Logas 01 and 02, Crete_Armenoi and the Marathon sample seem to be closer to modern Greeks than the four Mycenaeans of the Lazaridis study. And out of those four Mycenaens, two were from Crete. I leave out all the other specimens, because they are either from Sicily or Spain. Who knows who they may have intermixed with. That makes me think whether the earlier image we had developed for Mycenaens is correct. We only have two out of a total of zeven Ancient Greeks from the mainland with a low rate of steppe vs Minoan (1:10). They other five are more like 1:5, or even 1:4.
    Maybe the Mycenaeans were the early migrants into Greece and the other ones came later by a century or two or three giving them more time to admix with the steppe people. Or the Mycenaeans were mainly locals with very little steppe input from the Greeks.
    Last edited by bigsnake49; 24-10-22 at 05:18.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    Maybe the Mycenaeans were the early migrants into Greece and the other ones came later by a century or two or three giving them more time to admix with the steppe people. Or the Mycenaeans were mainly locals with very little steppe input from the Greeks.
    There is a source which is responsible for Paleo-Balkanic input (accompanied with more Steppe ancestry) into mainland Greece. The islands and the Peloponnese are largely excempt from this source until the late Bronze Age. In those areas, one can find traces of this source sporadically. That is, 1:10 steppe or less. North of the Peloponnese this source is more prevalent. And I think that after the Iron Age it spread further South. There was probably never just one wave. But multiple migrations.

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    Any idea if the .BAM files are uploaded and available anywhere?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Philjames100 View Post
    No, Amun is not 'the real Zeus'. Zeus is from proto-Indo-European Dyeus Phter (Sky Father). Zeus is most certainly not a god adopted by the Greeks from Egypt. The most you could say, speculatively, is that they have a common origin.

    Danaus, Cadmus etc were Greeks, descended from Inachus the king of Argos. That's why Danaus returns to Greece, the land of his ancestors, and claims the throne of Argos.

    If you want to mix mythology with DNA, I might as well point out that 18th dynasty pharaohs of Egypt Amenhotep III, Akhenaten and Tutankhamun had Y-DNA R1b-M269, an Indo-European lineage, and Amenhotep III also had mtDNA H2b, an Indo-Aryan lineage, inherited from his Mitanni mother.
    Ramses the third and his a mummy buried next to him were both shown to be e1b1a-M2. The mummy is thought to be the son Pentawaret. Which makes sense. I always thought of egyptians as mixed.
    I dont see anything saying those 3 you mentioned had R-M269.
    Just says R1b. On wiki it says their r1b clade was not even determined.
    R1b is pre indo european.
    But R1b is also present in sub sahara africa and north africa.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Philjames100 View Post
    No, Amun is not 'the real Zeus'. Zeus is from proto-Indo-European Dyeus Phter (Sky Father). Zeus is most certainly not a god adopted by the Greeks from Egypt. The most you could say, speculatively, is that they have a common origin.

    Danaus, Cadmus etc were Greeks, descended from Inachus the king of Argos. That's why Danaus returns to Greece, the land of his ancestors, and claims the throne of Argos.

    If you want to mix mythology with DNA, I might as well point out that 18th dynasty pharaohs of Egypt Amenhotep III, Akhenaten and Tutankhamun had Y-DNA R1b-M269, an Indo-European lineage, and Amenhotep III also had mtDNA H2b, an Indo-Aryan lineage, inherited from his Mitanni mother.
    https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/8624987998


    https://northern-greece.com/zeus-ammon-kassandra/

    Amun (Ammon) was, according to the Egyptians, the king of the gods and patron god of Thebes from the 20th c. B.C. Amun was the focal point of Egyptian worship and when he was combined with other gods such as the sun (Ra) he become Amun Ra. The Greeks had their own king god – Zeus. When the Greeks colonized north Africa in the 6th c. B.C., the city Cyrene (now in Libya) worshipped Zeus Ammon since they understood Ammon to be the equivelent of Zeus.

    The oracle in Libya was well respected in Greece. It was 3rd in importance only after the sanctuary of Zeus in Olympia and in Dodona in Epirus. After having been defeated in Asia Minor and Egypt, Darius the king of Persia was on the run. While in Egypt in 331 BC, Alexander took steps to make himself a living god. Tradition has it that Alexander went to the oracle in Siwah and there he was told that he was the son of Zeus Ammon. It is possible that Alexander had also visited the temple in Aphytis since it was close to his home. Arrian of Nicomedia wrote how Alexander wanted to travel to the oracle in Siwa to imitate his ancestors Heracles and Perseus who had travelled there before him.

    ....

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    The latest papers indicate that the Egyptians were between 6-10% Sub-Saharan African prior to the fall of Rome and the beginning of the Arab Slave trade. Now it can go up to 20%. The Copts, as Christians, are closer to the ancestral numbers.

    The R1b present could very well be R1b-V88, still present in the area today.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    The latest papers indicate that the Egyptians were between 6-10% Sub-Saharan African prior to the fall of Rome and the beginning of the Arab Slave trade. Now it can go up to 20%. The Copts, as Christians, are closer to the ancestral numbers.

    The R1b present could very well be R1b-V88, still present in the area today.

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    Herodotus histories.
    Also cadmus is son of Aegnor whonis son of Libya and Poseidon. Both libyan gods.
    He is of libyan origin / Egyptian





    http://ancientheroes.net/blog/alexan...eat-zeus-ammon

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    Don't you people ever get tired of posting the re-telling of legends as actual history? Get a grip.
    Last edited by Angela; 27-10-22 at 17:43.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Don't you people ever get tired of posting the re-telling of legends as actual heroes? Get a grip.
    I have ancient greek sources. Why dont you just quote some saying this is false from ancient greek text. Herodotus is the oldest known greek historian of carian decent.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
    Ramses the third and his a mummy buried next to him were both shown to be e1b1a-M2. The mummy is thought to be the son Pentawaret. Which makes sense. I always thought of egyptians as mixed.
    I dont see anything saying those 3 you mentioned had R-M269.
    Just says R1b. On wiki it says their r1b clade was not even determined.
    R1b is pre indo european.
    But R1b is also present in sub sahara africa and north africa.
    Ramsess III was likely E-V22, people have remarked how they made the mistake either knowingly or unknowingly after analyzing the STR markers. In the new paper they reposted E1b1a-M2 and refused to correct.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
    I have ancient greek sources. Why dont you just quote some saying this is false from ancient greek text. Herodotus is the oldest known greek historian of carian decent.

    Herodotus was not a historian in the modern sense of the term. Sometimes he reported facts known in his time, other times not, especially in the more ethnographic part of his writings, it did not always contain things that really happened.

    You cannot read ancient authors without having a basis in history, archeology, anthropology, linguistics, and above all without knowing what the scholars of the last 60 years at least have written on the texts of ancient authors.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    Herodotus was not a historian in the modern sense of the term. Sometimes he reported facts known in his time, other times not, especially in the more ethnographic part of his writings, it did not always contain things that really happened.

    You cannot read ancient authors without having a basis in history, archeology, anthropology, linguistics, and above all without knowing what the scholars of the last 60 years at least have written on the texts of ancient authors.
    So instead of providing some kind of evidence that refutes it, you just tell me he was not a historian. He is the most ancient historian of his time who went around interviewing different people of their time. I already posted the ammon zues bust from 500 bc depicting zues with goat horns to go along.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dianatomia View Post
    Would really like to compare Theopetra and Sarakenos to modern populations. And also o Iron Age Paeonians, Illyrians and Logas. I wonder if the 'Balkans' encirclement includes mainland Greece. Seems to me that Sarakenos is very similar to Cretans, while Theopetra might be very similar to mainland Greece today.

    So far Sarakenos, Theopetra, Logas 01 and 02, Crete_Armenoi and the Marathon sample seem to be closer to modern Greeks than the four Mycenaeans of the Lazaridis study. And out of those four Mycenaens, two were from Crete. I leave out all the other specimens, because they are either from Sicily or Spain. Who knows who they may have intermixed with. That makes me think whether the earlier image we had developed for Mycenaens is correct. We only have two out of a total of zeven Ancient Greeks from the mainland with a low rate of steppe vs Minoan (1:10). They other five are more like 1:5, or even 1:4.
    You say that in Lazaridis' Minoan/Mycenaean paper, 2/4 Mycenaeans are from Crete? This is false. 2 were from Galatas in Argolis, 1 was from Pylos in Messenia, and 1 was from Salamis in Attica.

    Additionally, you seem to ignore all the new Mycenaean samples from the recent Southern Arc paper, which added an additional 11 new Mycenaean samples from mainland Greece, and also 2 archaic Greek samples. Of the Mycenaeans, 6 were from Pylos, 3 were from Attica and 2 were from Kastrouli in southern Phocis.

    While there is variability in the amount of Steppe, their average is not so different from the Mycenaean average that we had previously.

    To make things more interesting, when averaging all 15 Mycenaean samples together, their average is almost identical to the average of the genetic cluster 480BCE_1 from Himera, which the paper identified as definite Greek soldiers. They are also very similar to the two Phocaean colonists from Empuries in Spain, and the Thracians from southern Thrace.

    Distance to: GRC_Mycenaean_(n=15)
    0.01049552 ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_1
    0.02023135 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
    0.02360508 BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IA
    0.03057226 BGR_Anc
    0.03125336 GRC_Koufonisi_Cycladic_EBA
    0.03189316 BGR_IA
    0.03294215 ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA_o
    0.03420535 GRC_Kastrouli_Anc
    0.03561312 ITA_Tarquinia_Imperial
    0.03846649 TUR_Aegean_Izmir_Yassitepe_MBA

    I'm also not sure why you think either the Empuries or the Himeran 480BCE_1 cluster show any signs of having non-Greek admixture. A shift towards Spain and/or Sicily is usually pretty apparent, especially because Greeks of this time period lacked HG admixture which is more abundant in western Europe. A few of the 409BCE Himera samples show an obvious shift towards the Sicani for this reason, as highlighted in the paper itself.

    Now, I do agree that the Theopetra samples are certainly interesting, but don't forget that 1. they predate the Mycenaean culture and 2. they aren't even from a location that was part of the Mycenaean world either. I do agree that it's very possible that parts of Greece, especially those outside of the world of the Mycenaeans, may have had much more Steppe admixture but it remains to be seen if this is actually true in the LBA/IA/Classical time periods. Iron Age/Classical era samples from Epirus, Thessaly and Macedonia are definitely needed to shed some light into the genetic structure of northern Greece.

    As for your suggestion that this is the reason for the genetic shift in southern Greece, it is definitely a factor to consider, but I have serious doubts it is the main factor at play. More samples are needed to find the exact situation; the singleton from Roman Marathon to me seems more likely to be a Greek with roots from West Anatolia then a good proxy for the average Greek in Attica / Peloponnese. That being said, I do think most Greeks in the areas in question will be a mix of Marathon-type autosomal and the Mycenaean/Himeran-type autosomal, judging by the east-to-west population movements that were occuring in the Roman and Byzantine periods.

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    ^^Exactly right.

    I've said over and over again that it looks from the samples we have that the Mycenaean genetic profile was widespread and persisted for about a thousand years, which is pretty remarkable.

    I don't understand this desire to find the Classical Greeks were more "northern" than the Mycenaeans, when all the current evidence suggests they weren't.

    The Prenestini sample is also interesting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
    So instead of providing some kind of evidence that refutes it, you just tell me he was not a historian. He is the most ancient historian of his time who went around interviewing different people of their time. I already posted the ammon zues bust from 500 bc depicting zues with goat horns to go along.
    It is you who should bring evidence of what you claim. Making a copy and paste of stuff found on the internet, as you do, some of which is attributed to ancient authors, is not evidence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    It is you who should bring evidence of what you claim. Making a copy and paste of stuff found on the internet, as you do, some of which is attributed to ancient authors, is not evidence.
    I did. It is evidence.
    Diodorus siculus

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
    I have ancient greek sources. Why dont you just quote some saying this is false from ancient greek text. Herodotus is the oldest known greek historian of carian decent.
    He's a story teller not a historian or an ethnographer. His travels are not extensive enough to gain first hand knowledge of all the different tribes and ethnicities. Even he admits that some of what he writes are second hand sources. Thucydides even complained that he was a story teller.

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