Genetic History of Anatolia during Holocene

Wanderer said:
Of course its "fiction"
Just like the city of troy was

https://www.quora.com/Im-Greek-from...-4-Ashkenazi-Hebrew-How-can-this-be-explained
At 1:30 4 pop shows plenty of Algerian


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Troy existed, what are you talking about ?

9 cities found one on top of each other .................Troy #6 is the one with fire markings................city was fortified with wood and moat...citadel was in stone.......held about 8000 people..........the Troy dig is still going on after 30 years by german archeologists

did a 10 year siege exist.....no way.........maybe a 10 month siege seems more likely
 
torzio said:
Troy existed, what are you talking about ?
9 cities found one on top of each other .................Troy #6 is the one with fire markings................city was fortified with wood and moat...citadel was in stone.......held about 8000 people..........the Troy dig is still going on after 30 years by german archeologists
did a 10 year siege exist.....no way.........maybe a 10 month siege seems more likely
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Even a 10 month siege is way too ambitious. The time frame of the fall of Troy is right at the rise of the Sea People and the fall of the Mycenaeans. I am not sure from what we know of the Sea People that they had the means or the numbers to mount such a long siege.
 
My Heritage is the worst testing company out there. They use or at least used to use Ashkenazim and Sephardim as reference samples for West Asians. It's like using Central Asians as reference samples for East Asians.

In other words: NOT KOSHER to use such admixed samples as references for any one component.
 
Wanderer said:
Says he was ethiopian. Not just king of ethiopians
But may not necessarily mean he was ethiopian proper.
And he was maybe mixed race egyptian.
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According to ancient Greek poets, Memnon's father Tithonus was snatched away from Troy by the goddess of dawn Eos and was taken to the ends of the earth on the coast of Oceanus.[14] According to Hesiod Eos bore to Tithonus bronzed armed Memnon, the King of the Aethiopians

In Greek mythology, Tithonus was the lover of Eos, Goddess of the Dawn. He was a prince of Troy, the son of King Laomedon by the Naiad Strymo (Στρυμώ).[ii]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memnon
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tithonus


T19.2Eos.jpg

^ Eos and the body of Memnon
https://www.theoi.com/Gallery/T19.2.html
 
Philjames100 said:
According to ancient Greek poets, Memnon's father Tithonus was snatched away from Troy by the goddess of dawn Eos and was taken to the ends of the earth on the coast of Oceanus.[14] According to Hesiod Eos bore to Tithonus bronzed armed Memnon, the King of the Aethiopians

In Greek mythology, Tithonus was the lover of Eos, Goddess of the Dawn. He was a prince of Troy, the son of King Laomedon by the Naiad Strymo (Στρυμώ).[ii]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memnon
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tithonus


View attachment 13637

^ Eos and the body of Memnon
https://www.theoi.com/Gallery/T19.2.html
Click to expand...


This is a depiction way after memnon existance more than hundreds of years later in ancient times.
Its like when the church depicts jesus as nordic when we know he was middle eastern.

Laomedons lineage leads to dardanus
And elecktra.

Dardanus lineage leads to Zues, zues is the equivalent to Amun- zues of egypt. An egyptian god
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amun
This is the real zues

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amun#/media/File:Le_musée_égyptien_(Turin)_(2865505031).jpg

Le_mus%C3%A9e_%C3%A9gyptien_%28Turin%29_%282865505031%29.jpg

As the chief deity of Egyptian Empire, Amun-Ra also came to be worshipped outside Egypt, according to the testimony of ancient Greek historiographers in Libya and Nubia. As Zeus-Ammon, he came to be identified with Zeus in Greece.

Electra is daughter of atlas who was a north african god of atlantis as the atlas mountains were located there and the mauri people king was named atlas.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlas_(mythology)

Lineage leads to Uranus or Ouranos
Equivelanys to Caelus or Amun.
CAELUS leads to Chaos
Amun goes back to mesopotamia
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anu
 
Jovialis said:
@Real expert

They even made Zeus black, it is completely unwatchable.

Someone tried to justify it to me by saying they were fictional characters, so it didn't matter...
......
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According to liberals that are very much in favor of the so-called diverse representation saying that black Achilles is unwatchable makes you a racist. Mind you, the wokes love to condemn whitewashing as racist while simultaneously rooting for and aggressively defending blackwashing. By their logic blackwashing is great and if you're against it- you are a racist. Here's the thing, liberal leftists are not always but often disingenuous, and deceptive. They indulge in playing mind games and make all kinds of lame excuses to push their propaganda and control the narrative. That's why the liberal progressives are rewriting history under the pretense to counter white supremacy and empower POC. The reality is, that the film industry with the support of intellectuals is not only blackwashing mythological, fictional European figures, but also systemically real, historical people in the name of color-blind casting, inclusion, and representation. For instance, in a historical movie about Anne Boylen and Henry VIII, the Queen of England who was a real white woman was portrayed by a black actress Jodie Turner-Smith. Likewise in fake BBC historical documentaries, the medieval English Queen Margaret of Anjou, a general and chief adviser to the Norman Conqueror William I, were shown as black. Besides, when following BBC, the average Roman family in Roman Britain were POC, and most of the Roman legionaries were black and they fought tribal celts with some blacks thrown in. Furthermore, one Irish guy told me online that watched a documentary about medieval Ireland with black friars and monks. Netflix which has gone woke for a while now made a Viking movie where the Norwegian Viking King, Jarl Haakon was a black Viking Queen. Moreover, Netflix Bridgeton depicts Regency-era Britain as a diverse place where interracial love was normal and accepted, white and black aristocrats were among themselves and a black Queen Charlotte was ruling. Even Caesar, the Finnish military leader and statesman Carl Gustaf Emil Mannerheim, and Joan Arc couldn't escape the blackwashing.


Anyway, you can see now people going around saying and thinking that Roman Britain was full of POC, that black Vikings were real, medieval Europe was ruled by black rulers, and black people were an integral part of the Regency era of British history and the top-notch members of society. The point is, that historical movies that are extremely incorrect are problematic since history movies shape the way people think about the past. Therefore, in my opinion, blackwashing is bad just as much as whitewashing is because it's disrespectful to true history and to the heritage of other people. And yet in the typical leftist lying fashion liberals and the media either defend or outright deny the obvious blackwashing of European history by engaging in word games and sophistry. They say skin color and ethnicity are not defining parts of the identity of historical people unless they are black of course. That's why color-blind casting is only fine when it goes one way.

For illustrative purposes, here are some articles and headlines on the internet.


"No, the BBC is not 'blackwashing' Troy: Fall of a City"

https://www.radiotimes.com/tv/drama...blackwashing-casting-black-actors-greek-myth/

"Alt-right commentator gets 'schooled' by historian over diversity in Roman Britain".

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...ator-gets-schooled-historian-diversity-roman/

"Mary Beard is right, Roman Britain was multi-ethnic – so why does this upset people so much?"

https://theconversation.com/mary-be...c-so-why-does-this-upset-people-so-much-82269

"Writer of Bridgerton defends black Queen Charlotte | News | The Times"
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/writer-of-bridgerton-defends-black-queen-charlotte-2rv985j5m

"TV Is Unwhitewashing History One Character, Period, and Genre at a Time."
https://www.indiewire.com/2019/03/t...ry-period-dramas-hbo-hulu-pbs-abc-1202049639/


Blackwashing white/European history is called unwhitewashing, as if white/European history was actually black history.

Mind f*ckery at its finest.
 
Hawk said:
The black Achilles in that TV Show was a complete miscast and terribly gone wrong, it's completely on the opposite edge of Brad Pitt who in fact played the character quite good. If they wanted to put a black character they had the script ready made from Homer himself, Memnon the king of Aethiopia who was one of the most powerful fighters in Iliad next to Achilles and Hector. Homer states that he was almost Achilles equal, perhaps even stronger than Hector, he killed Nestor son, then Nestor pleaded Achilles to revenge his son. It's probably a fiction for sure, but genuine fiction from the originator himself.

Anyway, the TV Show was a complete failure.
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I see exactly what you mean! I believe BBC intentionally missed the opportunity to include Memnon in the movie. They should've cast David Gaysi as Memnon instead of Achilles. He would've been a good choice in that regard. Likewise, there would be "inclusion", and "representation" without going against the original story by changing the ethnicity of Achilles. The truth of the matter is, that BBC only cares about tokenism and divisive content. Thus they love to insert their SJW agenda and identity politics into history, in this case, Greek history. In any case, the inclusion of Memnon would've made an awesome storyline, he arrived with a massive army to Troy, equaled Achilles in fighting skill, and even made Achilles bleed to the total shock of the Greeks. Besides, there are numerous depictions of the fight between Memnon and Achilles on clay vessels and reliefs because they were the type of heroes and pairs of warriors that were very appreciated in the Greek artistic representation.
 
I'd like to point out that Homer only briefly mentions Memnon in the Odyssey, and he is essentially a posthomeric hero. Therefore there were different Greek traditions about Memnon. According to one tradition, he was the King of the Ethiopians but not himself an Ethiopian, whereas others identified him as Ethiopian and accordingly black. In some traditions, Memnon was a Persian general from Susa. In fact, in Greek art, Memnon was depicted with a Caucasian physiognomy but sometimes with black/SSA features. Philostratus, for instance, distinguishes between a Trojan and an Ethiopian Memnon, and believes that the former, who was very young and did not distinguish himself till after the death of Hector, slew Antilochus; and he adds, that Achilles, after having avenged his friend, burnt the armor and head of Memnon on the funeral pile of Antilochus.

So, Memnon was an ambiguous character in terms of his ethnic background, however, Achilles wasn't. On the contrary, Achilles wasn't black in any form, shape, or fashion. No room for speculation or debates here.
 
@real expert

There cannot even be a dialogue between people that we call the "left" and people with who simply see the world, history, and science for what it is (so-called right wing). The time for talk is over, I think we need to start thinking about how we can remove these people from power. However, this also seems to be happening naturally. The failure of the show in ratings is a repudiation. At any rate, I don't want to get too far off topic in this thread.
 
Jovialis said:
jglbpjb.png
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I have tired to look for the samples, and I have also asked Salento to see if he could find him. But unfortunately, we could not. If someone could at least retrieve the source, it would be most appreciated.
 
real expert said:
I'd like to point out that Homer only briefly mentions Memnon in the Odyssey, and he is essentially a posthomeric hero. Therefore there were different Greek traditions about Memnon. According to one tradition, he was the King of the Ethiopians but not himself an Ethiopian, whereas others identified him as Ethiopian and accordingly black. In some traditions, Memnon was a Persian general from Susa. In fact, in Greek art, Memnon was depicted with a Caucasian physiognomy but sometimes with black/SSA features. Philostratus, for instance, distinguishes between a Trojan and an Ethiopian Memnon, and believes that the former, who was very young and did not distinguish himself till after the death of Hector, slew Antilochus; and he adds, that Achilles, after having avenged his friend, burnt the armor and head of Memnon on the funeral pile of Antilochus.

So, Memnon was an ambiguous character in terms of his ethnic background, however, Achilles wasn't. On the contrary, Achilles wasn't black in any form, shape, or fashion. No room for speculation or debates here.
Click to expand...

What matters is what the actual person who mentioned him Homer referred to him, he mentioned him as an Ethiopian and not Trojan. Latter traditions and quite recently fantasize how Trojan refugees founded all European crown houses. Anyway, my contextual argument was that they had space for an important black character with solid source, but they shot themselves on the feet.
 
real expert said:
I see exactly what you mean! I believe BBC intentionally missed the opportunity to include Memnon in the movie. They should've cast David Gaysi as Memnon instead of Achilles. He would've been a good choice in that regard. Likewise, there would be "inclusion", and "representation" without going against the original story by changing the ethnicity of Achilles. The truth of the matter is, that BBC only cares about tokenism and divisive content. Thus they love to insert their SJW agenda and identity politics into history, in this case, Greek history. In any case, the inclusion of Memnon would've made an awesome storyline, he arrived with a massive army to Troy, equaled Achilles in fighting skill, and even made Achilles bleed to the total shock of the Greeks. Besides, there are numerous depictions of the fight between Memnon and Achilles on clay vessels and reliefs because they were the type of heroes and pairs of warriors that were very appreciated in the Greek artistic representation.
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Memnon probably wasnt even european.
Achilles was european likely.

You think thats rediculous? The solutrean hypothesis was way more rediculous with not even any ancient authors to mention it. Neither is the the theory of spaniards migrating to the americas themselves ancient times and mixing with indigenous peoples.

After the long documentary guess what they concluded....
The chachapoyan are a mestizo population of spaniards and indigenous natives in a former spanish colony of Americas[emoji23]
 
Hawk said:
What matters is what the actual person who mentioned him Homer referred to him, he mentioned him as an Ethiopian and not Trojan. Latter traditions and quite recently fantasize how Trojan refugees founded all European crown houses. Anyway, my contextual argument was that they had space for an important black character with solid source, but they shot themselves on the feet.
Click to expand...

Homer doesn't say anything about Memnon except that he was handsome.
 
Wanderer said:
This is a depiction way after memnon existance more than hundreds of years later in ancient times.
Its like when the church depicts jesus as nordic when we know he was middle eastern.

Laomedons lineage leads to dardanus
And elecktra.

Dardanus lineage leads to Zues, zues is the equivalent to Amun- zues of egypt. An egyptian god
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amun
This is the real zues
Click to expand...

No, Amun is not 'the real Zeus'. Zeus is from proto-Indo-European Dyeus Phter (Sky Father). Zeus is most certainly not a god adopted by the Greeks from Egypt. The most you could say, speculatively, is that they have a common origin.

Danaus, Cadmus etc were Greeks, descended from Inachus the king of Argos. That's why Danaus returns to Greece, the land of his ancestors, and claims the throne of Argos.

If you want to mix mythology with DNA, I might as well point out that 18th dynasty pharaohs of Egypt Amenhotep III, Akhenaten and Tutankhamun had Y-DNA R1b-M269, an Indo-European lineage, and Amenhotep III also had mtDNA H2b, an Indo-Aryan lineage, inherited from his Mitanni mother.
 
Philjames100 said:
Homer doesn't say anything about Memnon except that he was handsome.
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He says he is Ethiopian King, and we can all assume what he might be, and what a king of certain tribe during Late Bronze Age might be from ancestry, especially to tribalistic places.

Anyway, as i already mentioned the person extremely likely didn't even exist and our argument was completely different, we were arguing about blackwashing of characters and what they had in table as reasonable inclusion of David Gyasi as Memnon instead of Achilles, and you jumped to another extreme whitewashing. Let's stay on middle reasonable ground.

A Trojan to be crowned a king in Ethiopia, which population had different facial features and colour, he would last maximum 1 month before he choked to death from poisoned food. I doubt the local elite would just give power like that to a single person with no military backup, humans back then were extremely tribalistic and superstitious, especially somewhere down the Sahara.
 
Would really like to compare Theopetra and Sarakenos to modern populations. And also o Iron Age Paeonians, Illyrians and Logas. I wonder if the 'Balkans' encirclement includes mainland Greece. Seems to me that Sarakenos is very similar to Cretans, while Theopetra might be very similar to mainland Greece today.

So far Sarakenos, Theopetra, Logas 01 and 02, Crete_Armenoi and the Marathon sample seem to be closer to modern Greeks than the four Mycenaeans of the Lazaridis study. And out of those four Mycenaens, two were from Crete. I leave out all the other specimens, because they are either from Sicily or Spain. Who knows who they may have intermixed with. That makes me think whether the earlier image we had developed for Mycenaens is correct. We only have two out of a total of zeven Ancient Greeks from the mainland with a low rate of steppe vs Minoan (1:10). They other five are more like 1:5, or even 1:4.
 
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Dianatomia said:
Would really like to compare Theopetra and Sarakenos to modern populations. And also o Iron Age Paeonians, Illyrians and Logas. I wonder if the 'Balkans' encirclement includes mainland Greece. Seems to me that Sarakenos is very similar to Cretans, while Theopetra might be very similar to mainland Greece today.

So far Sarakenos, Theopetra, Logas 01 and 02, Crete_Armenoi and the Marathon sample seem to be closer to modern Greeks than the four Mycenaeans of the Lazaridis study. And out of those four Mycenaens, two were from Crete. I leave out all the other specimens, because they are either from Sicily or Spain. Who knows who they may have intermixed with. That makes me think whether the earlier image we had developed for Mycenaens is correct. We only have two out of a total of zeven Ancient Greeks from the mainland with a low rate of steppe vs Minoan (1:10). They other five are more like 1:5, or even 1:4.
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Maybe the Mycenaeans were the early migrants into Greece and the other ones came later by a century or two or three giving them more time to admix with the steppe people. Or the Mycenaeans were mainly locals with very little steppe input from the Greeks.
 
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bigsnake49 said:
Maybe the Mycenaeans were the early migrants into Greece and the other ones came later by a century or two or three giving them more time to admix with the steppe people. Or the Mycenaeans were mainly locals with very little steppe input from the Greeks.
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There is a source which is responsible for Paleo-Balkanic input (accompanied with more Steppe ancestry) into mainland Greece. The islands and the Peloponnese are largely excempt from this source until the late Bronze Age. In those areas, one can find traces of this source sporadically. That is, 1:10 steppe or less. North of the Peloponnese this source is more prevalent. And I think that after the Iron Age it spread further South. There was probably never just one wave. But multiple migrations.
 
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