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Thread: Origin of blonde hair in Neolithic farmers.

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    Origin of blonde hair in Neolithic farmers.

    In another thread it was stated that Steppe people picked up blonde hair from Neolithic farmers, namely Funnelbeaker and Globular Amphora. Does anyone know where the farmers got it from? Did they get it from hunter-gatherers or did Neolithic Anatolians already have genes for blonde hair?

    According to Mathieson et al. 2018:

    "The derived allele of the KITLG SNP rs12821256 that is associated with – and likely causal for – blond hair in Europeans is present in one hunter-gatherer from each of Samara, Motala and Ukraine, as well as several later individuals with Steppe ancestry. Since the allele is found in populations with EHG (Eastern European hunter-gatherer) but not WHG ancestry, it suggests that its origin is in the Ancient North Eurasian (ANE) population. Consistent with this, we observe that the earliest known individual with the derived allele (supported by two reads) is the ANE individual Afontova Gora which is directly dated to 16130-15749 cal BCE."

    - Mathieson et al. (2018), The Genomic History of Southeastern Europe, Supplementary material, p.51
    Last edited by Philjames100; 19-10-22 at 19:50.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Philjames100 View Post
    In another thread it was stated that Steppe people picked up blonde hair from Neolithic farmers, namely Funnelbeaker and Globular Amphora. Does anyone know where the farmers got it from? Did they get it from hunter-gatherers or did Neolithic Anatolians already have genes for blonde hair?
    Maybe from Neanderthal?










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    Neanderthals weren't around then.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I have looked at the threads you have started and the posts you have written. The vast majority of them are about pigmentation, and specifically about the rise of the blonde hair and blue eyed phenotype combination in Europe.

    It's as if that's your only reason for being here. In addition, you don't present ALL the papers which discuss the issue, but only the ones which support the point of view that somehow it's a steppic trait.

    I'm not accusing you of being a Nazi, in fact, you seem like a nice, civil, guy. However, if that's not an obsession, then I don't know what one is.......

    Obsession is a very strong word with, what I believe to be, a negative undertone. In my case, you can say I have a great interest in or a healthy curiosity about the development of human pigmentation or phenotype. The authors of many genetic papers seem to share this interest with me. Others are rather more enthusiastic about haplogroups. Nevertheless, I'm fine with you thinking I'm obsessed with pigmentation as long you don't have the wrong impression that it comes from a bad place or me being a jerk. So, I'm glad that you don't have this bad and wrong impression of me given the fact, that you've expressed several times that as a veteran you have dealt with all kinds of loons.

    Moreover, I genuinely appreciate that you can separate disagreement from personal dislike. Many people hate you as soon you don‘t agree with them. Concerning many topics, I'm on the same page with you, just when it comes to Steppe ancestry or blond hair I see things differently. Anyway, allow me to clarify certain things. You probably briefly overviewed my threads and eyeballed my recent comments/replies and thus came to this conclusion which I find exaggerated. To reduce my over 640 comments on my assertions about and take on the origin of blond hair and blue eyes doesn't fit the facts. By and large, the threads I've started were posts of studies about Neolithic Europeans, BA Greeks, Italians, Balkans, and IA Europeans. To a lesser degree, I shared papers about Paleo-Eurasians, Africans, and Arabs. However, my two earliest started threads were indeed about pigmentation but not specifically about blond or blue eyes but rather about the development of the skin color of Eurasians.

    The point is that many studies include phenotype analysis which I brought up in my postings to share with members that are interested. Even the current papers, such as the Estonian, Southern Arc, and Ancient Greek army studies contained predictions of pigmentation and mention the presence of blondism/blue eyes or lack thereof. If my memory serves me right, there is no thread that I have posted that was about Indo-Europeans or isolated about blond hair or blue eyes. Since I'm not really convinced that EEF ancestry is entirely or solely responsible for blondism in Europeans of course I refer to other studies to make a case. Normal. Besides, it's not true that I'm being one-sided because I cite different papers. Plus, I showed a current study that suggests that blond hair comes from Steppe AND Anatolian farmer ancestry. Once again, I'm all good with disagreement as long we all don't take it or get personal. And also I hope that we have finally sorted this issue out.
    “If anyone can refute me—show me I’m making a mistake or looking at things from the wrong perspective—I’ll gladly change. It’s the truth I’m after, and the truth never harmed anyone. What harms us is to persist in self-deceit and ignorance.” – Marcus Aurelius, Meditations, Book VI, 21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Philjames100 View Post
    In another thread it was stated that Steppe people picked up blonde hair from Neolithic farmers, namely Funnelbeaker and Globular Amphora. Does anyone know where the farmers got it from? Did they get it from hunter-gatherers or did Neolithic Anatolians already have genes for blonde hair?

    According to Mathieson et al. 2018:

    "The derived allele of the KITLG SNP rs12821256 that is associated with – and likely causal for – blond hair in Europeans is present in one hunter-gatherer from each of Samara, Motala and Ukraine, as well as several later individuals with Steppe ancestry. Since the allele is found in populations with EHG (Eastern European hunter-gatherer) but not WHG ancestry, it suggests that its origin is in the Ancient North Eurasian (ANE) population. Consistent with this, we observe that the earliest known individual with the derived allele (supported by two reads) is the ANE individual Afontova Gora which is directly dated to 16130-15749 cal BCE."

    - Mathieson et al. (2018), The Genomic History of Southeastern Europe, Supplementary material, p.51

    This an interesting question that can't be really answered since there are no papers that I'm aware of that deal with the origin of blond hair in Anatolian farmers. At best we can speculate here or make educated guesses. The current data indicates so far, that Europeans inherited blondism from two sources- EEF and Steppe people who carried the genes for blondism, due to their ANE ancestry. As far as I know some Eastern European and Scandinavian Hunter-Gatherer individuals displayed blond hair without EEF ancestry. For instance, an EHG Samara individual was predicted with strong confidence to have blond hair and blue eyes. Likewise, 2 SHGs from Motala most likely were blond with blue eyes, too. Besides, Eastern EHG-Gatherers were 75% ANE. It should be taken into account that Funnelbeaker in Scandinavia/Northern Europe had up to 50% Hunter-Gatherer admixture, whereas in Central Europe it was at about 40%. Globular Amphora Culture folks were about 70% EEF and 30% WHG. Anyway, according to Genetiker phenotype predictions, the GAC people and Funnelbeakers had high levels of blondism. In that regard, I want to point out, that the Fatyanovo-Balanovo people had 70% Steppe ancestry and around 30% Globular Amphora admixture and they had a frequency of 21% of blond hair and 25% of blue eyes. And the Sintashta who were genetically speaking nearly identical to the Fatyanovo-Balanovo were around 50% of blond hair and 50% blue eyes. The point is, that several genes are responsible for blond hair. Although you can be blond without having the KITLG gene, however, the KITLG gene is significantly associated with common blond hair color in northern Europeans. We have to keep in mind, that positive sexual selection driven by the Steppe pastoralists increased the frequency of blondism. That's why the traits of blond hair spread rapidly after the initial Steppe herders' expansion into Central Europe.

    Note: Now I see that you have edited your first comment and partly answered your question. So my reply was addressed to your original comment and that's why I brought up blond hair in EHG and SHG and basically said the same things you said.

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    Quote Originally Posted by real expert View Post
    This an interesting question that can't be really answered since there are no papers that I'm aware of that deal with the origin of blond hair in Anatolian farmers. At best we can speculate here or make educated guesses. The current data indicates so far, that Europeans inherited blondism from two sources- EEF and Steppe people who carried the genes for blondism, due to their ANE ancestry. As far as I know some Eastern European and Scandinavian Hunter-Gatherer individuals displayed blond hair without EEF ancestry. For instance, an EHG Samara individual was predicted with strong confidence to have blond hair and blue eyes. Likewise, 2 SHGs from Motala most likely were blond with blue eyes, too. Besides, Eastern EHG-Gatherers were 75% ANE. It should be taken into account that Funnelbeaker in Scandinavia/Northern Europe had up to 50% Hunter-Gatherer admixture, whereas in Central Europe it was at about 40%. Globular Amphora Culture folks were about 70% EEF and 30% WHG. Anyway, according to Genetiker phenotype predictions, the GAC people and Funnelbeakers had high levels of blondism. In that regard, I want to point out, that the Fatyanovo-Balanovo people had 70% Steppe ancestry and around 30% Globular Amphora admixture and they had a frequency of 21% of blond hair and 25% of blue eyes. And the Sintashta who were genetically speaking nearly identical to the Fatyanovo-Balanovo were around 50% of blond hair and 50% blue eyes. The point is, that several genes are responsible for blond hair. Although you can be blond without having the KITLG gene, however, the KITLG gene is significantly associated with common blond hair color in northern Europeans. We have to keep in mind, that positive sexual selection driven by the Steppe pastoralists increased the frequency of blondism. That's why the traits of blond hair spread rapidly after the initial Steppe herders' expansion into Central Europe.

    Note: Now I see that you have edited your first comment and partly answered your question. So my reply was addressed to your original comment and that's why I brought up blond hair in EHG and SHG and basically said the same things you said.
    As far as I'm aware no Neolithic Anatolian samples have been found to have genes for blonde hair, so it seems highly likely that EEF blondism is from hunter-gatherers and ultimately ANE, so the same origin as the Steppe people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by real expert View Post
    The point is, that several genes are responsible for blond hair. Although you can be blond without having the KITLG gene
    What are the other genes for blond hair?

    BTW I noticed you seem to know a lot about the archaeology of Bronze Age Balkans, but wikipedia is a bit of a garbage dump fire on that subject, maybe you could help to sort it out?

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    The cause of light colors in humans is attributed to sexual selection and the lack of ultraviolet rays, but the camouflage factor can also be one of these causes, because light colors appear in populations or places that only have snow in common ( Alpines, Berbers of the Atlas Mountains, Scandinavia).
    With the exception of Scandinavia and Finland, the current circum-arctic peoples (Inuit, Uralics...) having light brown skin, black hair and black eyes does not deny this, because they came mostly from non-Arctic East Asia, after the domestication of the reindeer, and some at the end of the last glaciation, that is, they did not suffer so much from the selective pressures of a dominantly white environment, such as the ANE and ANS (Ancient North Siberians). In fact, arctic populations to have light brown skin and the sky to be always blue there, negates the ultraviolet factor.
    Dark ones on the hunt had more difficulty camouflaging themselves. This applies to other projectiles and other situations (and other eras), but looking at it simply, in North Eurasian prehistory, sometimes everyday life was decided throwing stones at each other especially in winter when competition for resources was greater, against the background of white snow, whoever had black hair, when he tried to lift his head from outside to locate the other, was immediately hit, with dark skin it was the same, two black dots (the eyes) in the snow are also ideal to take aim. This would select for the clearest mutations.
    Last edited by jose luis; 24-10-22 at 21:10. Reason: minor change

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    I think considering Anatolian agriculturalist ancestry as a source for blond hair is based on nothing...

    Blondness is clearly a trait from Northern Europe. There's barely none in Turkey or any other area in the Near East.
    You would have to answer how is it that is has been wiped out so misteriously.

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