Iberian roma mtdna

[kingjohn]

Abstract

The Roma are the largest ethnic minority in Europe. With a Northwestern Indian origin around ~ 1.5 kya, they travelled throughout West Asia until their arrival in Europe around the eleventh century CE. Their diaspora through Europe is characterized by population bottlenecks and founder events which have contributed to their present day genetic and cultural diversity. In our study, we focus on the effects of founder effects in the mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) pool of Iberian Roma by producing and analyzing 144 novel whole mtDNA sequences of Iberian Roma. Over 60% of their mtDNA pool is composed by founder lineages of South Asian origin or acquired by gene flow during their diaspora in the Middle East or locally in Europe in Europe. The TMRCA of these lineages predates the historical record of the Roma arrival in Spain. The abundance of founder lineages is in contrast with ~ 0.7% of autochthonous founder lineages present in the non-Roma Iberian population. Within those founder lineages, we found a substantial amount of South Asian M5a1b1a1 haplotypes and high frequencies of West Eurasian founder lineages (U3b1c, J2b1c, J1c1b, J1b3a, H88, among others), which we characterized phylogenetically and put in phylogeographical context. Besides, we found no evidence of genetic substructure of Roma within the Iberian Peninsula. These results show the magnitude of founder effects in the Iberian Roma and further explain the Roma history and genetic diversity from a matrilineal point of view.

from the paper:
Our samples show 20 (13.9%) M South Asian haplotypes, mainly represented by M5a1b haplogroup sequences, and 124 (86.1%) West Eurasian haplotypes. Besides, our samples show 51% of West Eurasian founder lineages that had previously been described either by analysis of mitochondrial control regions (U3, H7, J1b3 or J1c1) or whole mitogenome analysis (H88a, U3b1c)23,24. In addition to these previously observed Roma founder lineages, we were also able to detect the presence of some new founder lineages within haplogroups H3g1 and J2b1c (Fig. 1). Overall, two founder lineages of South Asian origin were carried by 13.9% of the individuals of our Iberian Roma sample, while seven West Eurasian founder lineages reached a joint 51.4% population frequency.

Haplogroup composition in Iberian Roma. Founder lineages are detailed to the sub-haplogroup level


source:
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-022-23349-9

 

[Angela]

So, although some women were part of the original group which left India, they incorporated women they encountered along the way?

 

[kingjohn]

So, although some women were part of the original group which left India, they incorporated women they encountered along the way?

It seem like it
Probably some woman in west asia joined the roma before they moved to europe

 

[Mmiikkii]

Seems like the most relevant stop to pick new mtDNA was in West Asia(Syria, Turkey, the Caucasus)

 

[Angela]

Which ones are you talking about? European mtDna is dominated by West Asian mtDna because of the Anatolian farmers who came to Europe.

I don't see how there's any way of knowing where the women were adopted into the group.

 

[kingjohn]

angela at least 1 mtdna branch present in iberian roma could have been picked in west asia


from the paper:

Additionally, J1b3a could also have a Middle Eastern origin, since it has also been found in Armenians and Assyrians (Fig. 4). This lineage, which we find for the first time in Western Roma, is moderately frequent in Roma from Bulgaria and Hungary and quite prevalent in Ukrainian Romungro Roma24.

 

[Angela]

angela at least 1 mtdna branch present in iberian roma could have been picked in west asia


from the paper:

Additionally, J1b3a could also have a Middle Eastern origin, since it has also been found in Armenians and Assyrians (Fig. 4). This lineage, which we find for the first time in Western Roma, is moderately frequent in Roma from Bulgaria and Hungary and quite prevalent in Ukrainian Romungro Roma24.

I think "could" is the operative word here. My question was how do you know it was picked up by Roma in West Asia, versus it was a Neolithic mtDna present in Europe as a result of the migration from West Asia to Europe, and picked up by the Roma there.

Unless you think every European mtDna sample here is Roma?

https://www.yfull.com/mtree/J1b3a/

 

[kingjohn]

I think "could" is the operative word here. My question was how do you know it was picked up by Roma in West Asia, versus it was a Neolithic mtDna present in Europe as a result of the migration from West Asia to Europe, and picked up by the Roma there.

Unless you think every European mtDna sample here is Roma?

https://www.yfull.com/mtree/J1b3a/

ok lets settle down on west euroasian

 

[Angela]

Absolutely no reason for you to cop an attitude with me. I was perfectly civil.

Any analysis of any of these issues requires the application of logic and clarity. That's it.

 

[kingjohn]

Absolutely no reason for you to cop an attitude with me. I was perfectly civil.

Any analysis of any of these issues requires the application of logic and clarity. That's it.

angela if you were offended by me i am sorry

 

[Mmiikkii]

My question was how do you know it was picked up by Roma in West Asia, versus it was a Neolithic mtDna present in Europe as a result of the migration from West Asia to Europe, and picked up by the Roma there.
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U3 is mainly West Asian, it's weird for them to pick exactly such a minoritarian haplogroup.
Also, gipsy in Spanish is "gitano", some say comes from "egiptano".