Ancient DNA, admx. history and endogamy in the prehistoricAegean Skourtaniotietal2022

Maybe because they wanted to model Italians with 0% Levantine? :D
The Max Planck institute wants to hide levantine? Obviously you're confused. Also maybe people who are actually professional aren't obsessed with trying to prove it is there. Unlike yourself and those like you.
 
One last snip, Sarno et al 2017 was cited by levantists on Anthrogenica as "proof" of substantial levantine admixture in southern Italians and Greeks. Using simulations of modern populations to model autosomal make up. But now we have Sarno et al 2021 which used actual ancient DNA, and now all of the sudden they're trying to hide levantine admixture? What a asinine thing to assume.

Now we're done.
 
Bruh, i dont disagree with you about South Italians being the closest to ancient Greeks. The excess Iran N admix in South Italians might even help them plot closer to ancient Greeks too, + the ancient Italian and Greek admix

Greeks through the ages mostly absorbed newcomers with more Steppe admix. Be it Slavs, Vlachs, Albanians (the latter two also Slav admixed). Other than that, Greece and Anatolia were one political continuum since the late Bronze Age.
So modern Greeks in comparison to Mycenaeans have more steppe admixture and are also pulled towards Anatolia. Because of these two factors modern Greeks do not overlap with Bronze Age Greeks. Even though Bronze Age Greeks are the dominant source of the modern Greeks gentic composition.

I believe that South Italians plot closer to Mycenaean Greeks especially compared to mainland Greeks not so much because they have more ancestry from that source. But rather because the ever evolving genetic composition of the South Italian region was more balanced relative to the Mycenaeans. Phoenicians and Siceliots counter balanced higher levels of Steppe admixture of Romans, medieval Greeks, Albanians, Celts which were absorbed by the locals.

Slowly but surely, as we will have more samples from Greeks through the ages, we will notice that they will increasing pull more and more towards modern Greeks. Hellenistic Greeks will likely have somewhat more Steppe admixture, and most assuredly more of this Anatolian imput given that Greece and Anatolia were already interconnected for almost a millenium.
 
No, G25 inflates it greatly compared to what comes out in official papers, which you dismiss as wrong, but you are unable to say why an amateur calculator is to be preferred over the work of academicians.

Then why does qpAdm show 10% Natufian in Sicilians.
 
No, obviously there's some due to the moors and Saracens. But he used your dubious model, which is what I asked you to do. The outputs you used may be flawed within and of itself. I doubt the academics fail to make the realization, if there's some nuances to using it we aren't aware of.

You do realize that for Sicilians to get 10% Natufian they would need much more North African admix than Canaanite related?
 
You do realize that for Sicilians to get 10% Natufian they would need much more North African admix than Canaanite related?

Obviously you're doing something wrong. So the scenario is BS to begin with.
 
Greeks through the ages mostly absorbed newcomers with more Steppe admix. Be it Slavs, Vlachs, Albanians (the latter two also Slav admixed). Other than that, Greece and Anatolia were one political continuum since the late Bronze Age.
So modern Greeks in comparison to Mycenaeans have more steppe admixture and are also pulled towards Anatolia. Because of these two factors modern Greeks do not overlap with Bronze Age Greeks. Even though Bronze Age Greeks are the dominant source of the modern Greeks gentic composition.
I believe that South Italians plot closer to Mycenaean Greeks especially compared to mainland Greeks not so much because they have more ancestry from that source. But rather because the ever evolving genetic composition of the South Italian region was more balanced relative to the Mycenaeans. Phoenicians and Siceliots counter balanced higher levels of Steppe admixture of Romans, medieval Greeks, Albanians, Celts which were absorbed by the locals.
Slowly but surely, as we will have more samples from Greeks through the ages, we will notice that they will increasing pull more and more towards modern Greeks. Hellenistic Greeks will likely have somewhat more Steppe admixture, and most assuredly more of this Anatolian imput given that Greece and Anatolia were already interconnected for almost a millenium.
Maybe you need to brush up on the papers that say otherwise.
"Southern Italy was characterised by a complex prehistory that started with different Palaeolithic cultures, later followed by the Neolithization and the demic dispersal from the Pontic-Caspian Steppe during the Bronze Age. Archaeological and historical evidences point to a link between Southern Italians and the Balkans still present in modern times. To shed light on these dynamics, we analysed around 700 South Mediterranean genomes combined with informative ancient DNAs. Our findings revealed high affinities of South-Eastern Italians with modern Eastern Peloponnesians, and a closer affinity of ancient Greek genomes with those from specific regions of South Italy than modern Greek genomes. The higher similarity could be associated with a Bronze Age component ultimately originating from the Caucasus with high Iranian and Anatolian Neolithic ancestries. Furthermore, extremely differentiated allele frequencies among Northern and Southern Italy revealed putatively adapted SNPs in genes involved in alcohol metabolism, nevi features and immunological traits."
 
"The admixture graph (Fig. 3) helped in delineating ancestral genetic population differences and similarities between present-day Southern Italians and Greeks in whom an overall higher Steppe-related ancestry was detected (Fig. 2D, Table S2). In particular, we were able to fit a graph admixture model in which 63% of the Minoan genome was found in a population that contributed 97% to the genetic pool of present-day Apulians (Fig. 3A). Contrary, modern Greeks were successfully modelled as an admixture of populations related to present-day Balkan populations (Serbian, [48]) and Bronze Age Greek groups, here represented by Minoans (Fig. 3B). This could potentially explain the differences found in Steppe-related ancestries between the two present-day populations. Additionally, these results suggest a more recent gene exchange between Greeks and neighbouring Slavic-related populations. Alternatively, they could be explained by different ancient legacies between the two sides of the Adriatic Sea, as the result of pre-Bronze Age genetic structure in the Balkans."

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0888754322001501
 
My humble 2 cents: thread seems to be grossly derailed, there's another thread to compare ancient Greeks with moderns.
 
My humble 2 cents: thread seems to be grossly derailed, there's another thread to compare ancient Greeks with moderns.

Indeed, something I already tried to put an end to. Next person to do it is getting an infraction.
 
There are still some other samples not included in the tabel that haven't been properly analyzed yet many however are low coverage. It will be interesting to know the dates for all of the samples.

Sample nSiteY-DNA
G2a2b2a-Z6148
Sample (n=1)


ID XAN007Chania, CreteG2a2b2a-Z6148
Thus far, also for those who want to keep track of the nomenclatures:

Sample n (Y-DNA)SiteDateY-DNA
J1a-P58
Sample (n=5)



ID HGC001Hagios Charalambos cave, Crete2300-1900 BCJ1a-P58 (xZ643,Y4067,ZS12454,Y205364)
ID HGC002Hagios Charalambos cave, Crete
J1a-P58
ID HGC005Hagios Charalambos cave, Crete
J1a-P58
ID HGC013Hagios Charalambos cave, Crete
J1a-P58
ID HGC063Hagios Charalambos cave, Crete
J1a-P58
J1b-ZS50
Sample (n=2)



ID LAZ017Lazarides, Aegina
J1b-ZS50
ID NST012Nea Styra, Euboea
J1b-ZS50>ZS5071
J2a1-M319
Sample (n=4)



ID HGC037Hagios Charalambos cave, Crete2400-1800 BCJ2a1-M319
ID HGC015Hagios Charalambos cave, Crete2400-1800 BCJ2a1-M319>Y151557
ID HGC018Hagios Charalambos cave, Crete2400-1800 BCJ2a1-M319>Y151557
ID HGC031Hagios Charalambos cave, Crete2400-1800 BCJ2a1-M319>Y151557
J2a1a1-Y6240
Sample (n=3)



ID HGC006Hagios Charalambos cave, Crete
J2a1a1-Y6240>BY82631
ID HGC009Hagios Charalambos cave, Crete
J2a1a1-Y6240>BY82631
ID HGC017Hagios Charalambos cave, Crete
J2a1a1-Y6240>BY82631
J2a-Z7671
Sample (n=3)



ID APO025Aposelemis, Crete
J2a-Z7671
ID XAN041Chania, Crete
J2a-Z7671
ID TIR010Tiryns, Argolis
J2a-Z7671
J2a-Y17002
Sample (n=1)



ID XAN031Chania, Crete
J2a-Y17002
J2a1a2-Y13128
Sample (n=1)



ID XAN029Chania, Crete
J2a1a2-Y13128>Z36829
J2a-PF5252
Sample (n=1)



ID GLI003Glika Nera, Attica
J2a-PF5252*
J2a2-PF5008
Sample (n=3)



ID AID007Aidonia, Corinthia
J2a2-PF5008>Y24510
ID AID008Aidonia, Corinthia
J2a2-PF5008>Y24510
ID XAN024Chania, Crete
J2a2-PF5008>MF10501*
G2a2a-PF3147
Sample (n=3)



ID LAZ018Lazarides, Aegina
G2a2a-PF3147>FGC55322
ID XAN051Chania, Crete
G2a2a-PF3147>L91>Y130324
ID MYG004MBA/LBA Mygdalia, Achaia, Greece1600-1450 BCE (~1525 BCE)G2a2a-PF3147>L91>Y130324
G2a2b2-F872
Sample (n=1)



ID NST005Nea Styra, Euboea
G2a2b2-F872>PF3378
C1a2-V20
Sample (n=2)



ID XAN035Chania, Crete
C1a2-V20>V3918
ID AID002Aidonia, Corinthia
C1a2-V20>F16270
E1b-CTS10912
Sample (n=1)



ID XAN016Chania, Crete
E1b-CTS10912>BY6578
R1b-PF7562
Sample (n=1)



ID XAN030Chania, Crete
R1b-PF7562
T1a3b2-Y11151
Sample (n=2)



ID HGC010Hagios Charalambos cave, Crete
T1a3b2-Y11151>BY59831
ID HGC055Hagios Charalambos cave, Crete
T1a3b2-Y11151>BY59831
J2b-L283
Sample (n=4)



ID MYG001MBA/LBA Mygdalia, Achaia, Greece1600-1450 BCE (~1525 BCE)J2b-L283>Z615*
ID MYG008MBA/LBA Mygdalia, Achaia, Greece1600-1450 BCE (~1525 BCE)J2b-L283>Z615*
ID MYG006MBA/LBA Mygdalia, Achaia, Greece1600-1450 BCE (~1525 BCE)J2b-L283>Z615*
ID MYG005MBA/LBA Mygdalia, Achaia, Greece1600-1450 BCE (~1525 BCE)J2b-L283>Z615*
 
Thanks for the information, the dates are very essential.

Distance to:Hagios_Crete_BA:HGC037:_19.39%cov
5.60500669Greece_N:I3920:Mathieson_2018
6.13722250Greece_N:I3709:Mathieson_2018
6.20895321Minoan_Lasithi:I9005:Lazaridis_2017
6.51165110Minoan_Petras_EBA:pta08:Clemente_2021
6.52721993Minoan_Lasithi:I0074:Lazaridis_2017
6.61191349NE_Iberia_Hel_(Empúries2):I8208:Olalde_2019
6.86958514Helladic_Manika_EBA:Mik15:Clemente_2021
6.88910009Minoan_Lasithi:I0071:Lazaridis_2017
6.91710922Cycladic_Koufonisi_EBA:Kou01:Clemente_2021
7.15990223Perachora_BA:G62_Aegean_2700-2200_BCE
8.29378683Perachora_BA:G65_Aegean_2700-2200_BCE
8.35544134GRC_Mycenaean_Attica_BA:I15571
8.47115104Perachora_BA:G31_Aegean_2700-2200_BCE
8.51014101Greece_N:I2318:Mathieson_2018
8.51197392Cycladic_Koufonisi_EBA:Kou03:Clemente_2021
8.55710816Perachora_BA:G76a_Aegean_2569-2340_calBCE
8.58025058Mycenaean:I9010:Lazaridis_2017
8.72544555Greece_N:I2937:Lazaridis_2017
8.82166084Minoan_Odigitria:I9130:Lazaridis_2017
8.87482394Minoan_Lasithi:I0073:Lazaridis_2017
8.94097310Minoan_Lasithi:I0070:Lazaridis_2017
9.18336540Minoan_Odigitria:I9131:Lazaridis_2017
9.26569479Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I10948
9.29143154Mycenaean:I9041:Lazaridis_2017
9.34683904Minoan_Odigitria:I9129:Lazaridis_2017


Distance to:Hagios_Crete_BA:HGC006-035_85.36%cov
1.80288657Minoan_Lasithi:I0071:Lazaridis_2017
3.09252324Cycladic_Koufonisi_EBA:Kou01:Clemente_2021
3.17806545Minoan_Lasithi:I0074:Lazaridis_2017
3.53879923Minoan_Lasithi:I0070:Lazaridis_2017
4.07693512Minoan_Lasithi:I0073:Lazaridis_2017
4.09658394Greece_N:I3709:Mathieson_2018
4.24582148Greece_N:I3920:Mathieson_2018
4.42166258Minoan_Petras_EBA:pta08:Clemente_2021
5.70887905Perachora_BA:G62_Aegean_2700-2200_BCE
5.86733330Minoan_Lasithi:I9005:Lazaridis_2017
6.39942185Perachora_BA:G65_Aegean_2700-2200_BCE
6.80124253NE_Iberia_Hel_(Empúries2):I8208:Olalde_2019
7.25542556Minoan_Odigitria:I9130:Lazaridis_2017
7.50619744Cycladic_Koufonisi_EBA:Kou03:Clemente_2021
7.68158838Greece_N:I2318:Mathieson_2018
7.76404534Perachora_BA:G76a_Aegean_2569-2340_calBCE
7.89252178GRC_Mycenaean_Attica_BA:I15571
8.17586081Minoan_Odigitria:I9131:Lazaridis_2017
8.83294402GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA:I13516
8.94241019Mycenaean:I9006:Lazaridis_2017
8.98566080Perachora_BA:G31_Aegean_2700-2200_BCE
9.39097971Helladic_Manika_EBA:Mik15:Clemente_2021
9.53123811Minoan_Odigitria:I9129:Lazaridis_2017
9.63943982Minoan_Odigitria:I9127:Lazaridis_2017
9.90539752GRC_Minoan_Zakros_BA:I14916


Distance to:Hagios_Crete_BA:HGC018:_57.66%cov
1.58129694Cycladic_Koufonisi_EBA:Kou01:Clemente_2021
2.05426386Minoan_Lasithi:I0071:Lazaridis_2017
2.37583669Minoan_Lasithi:I0073:Lazaridis_2017
2.99377688Minoan_Lasithi:I0070:Lazaridis_2017
3.95832035Minoan_Lasithi:I0074:Lazaridis_2017
4.42932275Minoan_Petras_EBA:pta08:Clemente_2021
5.26754212Greece_N:I3709:Mathieson_2018
5.66965607Greece_N:I3920:Mathieson_2018
6.85442193Perachora_BA:G62_Aegean_2700-2200_BCE
7.48148381Cycladic_Koufonisi_EBA:Kou03:Clemente_2021
7.65324768Minoan_Odigitria:I9127:Lazaridis_2017
7.76645994NE_Iberia_Hel_(Empúries2):I8208:Olalde_2019
7.94766632Perachora_BA:G65_Aegean_2700-2200_BCE
8.00441753GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA:I13516
8.10139494Minoan_Lasithi:I9005:Lazaridis_2017
8.34019784GRC_Minoan_Zakros_BA:I14916
8.47186520GRC_Mycenaean_Attica_BA:I15571
8.71282388Mycenaean:I9006:Lazaridis_2017
8.93297263Perachora_BA:G76a_Aegean_2569-2340_calBCE
9.05929357Greece_N:I2318:Mathieson_2018
9.36743295Minoan_Odigitria:I9130:Lazaridis_2017
10.60967012Minoan_Odigitria:I9131:Lazaridis_2017
10.70246233Perachora_BA:G31_Aegean_2700-2200_BCE
10.88430062Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I7219
10.99662221Helladic_Manika_EBA:Mik15:Clemente_2021


Distance to:Hagios_Crete_BA:HGC018-061:_31.34%cov
3.88132709Cycladic_Koufonisi_EBA:Kou01:Clemente_2021
4.70188260Minoan_Petras_EBA:pta08:Clemente_2021
4.89105306Minoan_Lasithi:I0071:Lazaridis_2017
5.47825702Minoan_Lasithi:I0074:Lazaridis_2017
5.48414077Greece_N:I3709:Mathieson_2018
5.60539026Greece_N:I3920:Mathieson_2018
6.11936271Minoan_Lasithi:I0073:Lazaridis_2017
6.23308110Minoan_Lasithi:I0070:Lazaridis_2017
7.09375077Perachora_BA:G62_Aegean_2700-2200_BCE
7.47166648Cycladic_Koufonisi_EBA:Kou03:Clemente_2021
7.49901994NE_Iberia_Hel_(Empúries2):I8208:Olalde_2019
7.61175407Minoan_Lasithi:I9005:Lazaridis_2017
8.18624456Perachora_BA:G65_Aegean_2700-2200_BCE
8.44892301GRC_Mycenaean_Attica_BA:I15571
8.79866467Mycenaean:I9006:Lazaridis_2017
8.98000000Perachora_BA:G76a_Aegean_2569-2340_calBCE
8.98763595Greece_N:I2318:Mathieson_2018
9.16973827Helladic_Manika_EBA:Mik15:Clemente_2021
9.23634127Minoan_Odigitria:I9130:Lazaridis_2017
9.23983225GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA:I13516
10.03526283Perachora_BA:G31_Aegean_2700-2200_BCE
10.07654207Minoan_Odigitria:I9131:Lazaridis_2017
10.14063607Greece_N:I2937:Lazaridis_2017
10.18564676Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I7219
10.27661909GRC_Minoan_Zakros_BA:I14916


Distance to:Hagios_Crete_BA:HGC031:_25.96%cov
5.67182510GRC_Mycenaean_Attica_BA:I15571
6.50323766Greece_N:I3920:Mathieson_2018
6.58211212NE_Iberia_Hel_(Empúries2):I8208:Olalde_2019
6.62258258GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA:I19366
6.76351979Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I17866
6.79398263Minoan_Petras_EBA:pta08:Clemente_2021
7.59297043Cycladic_Koufonisi_EBA:Kou01:Clemente_2021
7.72210464Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I7219
7.98175419GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA:I13514
8.05258344GRC_Kastrouli_Anc:I17962
8.09355917Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I7221
8.15758543Minoan_Odigitria:I9131:Lazaridis_2017
8.17489449Cycladic_Koufonisi_EBA:Kou03:Clemente_2021
8.24730865Minoan_Lasithi:I0071:Lazaridis_2017
8.41038644Minoan_Lasithi:I0070:Lazaridis_2017
8.48212827Minoan_Lasithi:I9005:Lazaridis_2017
8.69486630Mycenaean:I9010:Lazaridis_2017
8.73605746Mycenaean:I9041:Lazaridis_2017
8.87380414Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I10945
8.91859854GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA:I13516
8.98334014Mycenaean:I9006:Lazaridis_2017
8.98424176GRC_Mycenaean_Attica_BA:I16709
9.05357940GRC_Mycenaean_Attica_BA:I15582
9.05510353Greece_N:I3709:Mathieson_2018
9.17972222Minoan_Lasithi:I0073:Lazaridis_2017

 
Missed one, another Minoan:

Distance to:Hagios_Crete_BA:HGC001:_84.38%cov
1.99456762Minoan_Lasithi:I0073:Lazaridis_2017
2.17029952Cycladic_Koufonisi_EBA:Kou01:Clemente_2021
2.60418893Minoan_Petras_EBA:pta08:Clemente_2021
3.05461945Minoan_Lasithi:I0071:Lazaridis_2017
4.29555584Minoan_Lasithi:I0070:Lazaridis_2017
4.36672646Greece_N:I3920:Mathieson_2018
4.68909373Minoan_Lasithi:I0074:Lazaridis_2017
6.65452478Cycladic_Koufonisi_EBA:Kou03:Clemente_2021
6.79167137GRC_Minoan_Zakros_BA:I14916
6.79866899Greece_N:I3709:Mathieson_2018
7.14438941Minoan_Lasithi:I9005:Lazaridis_2017
7.45920907NE_Iberia_Hel_(Empúries2):I8208:Olalde_2019
8.34776617GRC_Mycenaean_Attica_BA:I15571
8.51619633Perachora_BA:G62_Aegean_2700-2200_BCE
8.91210413GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA:I13516
9.54354232Mycenaean:I9006:Lazaridis_2017
9.63482745Perachora_BA:G65_Aegean_2700-2200_BCE
9.73038026Minoan_Odigitria:I9127:Lazaridis_2017
10.45140660Perachora_BA:G76a_Aegean_2569-2340_calBCE
10.57417136Greece_N:I2318:Mathieson_2018
10.60519212Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I7221
10.60525813Minoan_Odigitria:I9130:Lazaridis_2017
10.63632455Minoan_Odigitria:I9131:Lazaridis_2017
10.77754610Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I7219
11.34899996GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA:I19366

 
GLI002 calls by theytree site
He is real e-m34 ;)
from Glica Nera

https://i.imgur.com/paVNkJh.jpg


GreeceAttica.png


P.s
Today athens area is only 2-3% e-m34
And most of it e-z841>L791

The find of a rare e-m34 branch in this
Paper is fascinating
It shows ancient dna can have surprises;)
 
Last edited:
There are still some other samples not included in the tabel that haven't been properly analyzed yet many however are low coverage. It will be interesting to know the dates for all of the samples.
\
2 of the 3 T1a3 ydna have the same snp as the cretan T above
Tepe Hissar C ( 4100 yBP - Bronze Age ) Tepe Hissar Culture .............NE Iran on the Caspian sea
I2514 ( 3915 ± 25 yBP / 4341 yBP )
Phase: Hissar IIIb
Cluster:
Y-DNA: T1a3-Y13284 (xT1a3a1a1-Y38305, T1a3a1a2-BY31850)
mtDNA: W3b
Age at Death: +50
................................................
Ipatovo 3 ( 5400 yBP - Early Bronze Age ) Early Steppe Maykop Culture
IV3002 ( 5383 ± 64 yBP )
Kurgan: 2
Phase: 1st
Grave: 187 ( Founding grave of the entire mound )
Other dates: 5058 ± 223 yBP / 5328 ± 251 yBP / 4630 ± 50 yBP (radiocarbon)
Y-DNA: T1-CTS6004 (xT1a1a-CTS484, T1a1b-Y6031, T1a2b-FGC37316) Probably: T1a3-Y8614
mtDNA: X1'2'3
Age at Death: 35-45
.....................................
Kok-Mardan ( 1800 yBP - Late Antiquity ) Kaunchi Culture ( Kangju ) ................Kazak
DA125 ( 1755 ± 41 yBP )
Kurgan:
Object:
Y-DNA: T1a3 -Y13279
mtDNA: U2e2a1
 

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