Ancient DNA, admx. history and endogamy in the prehistoricAegean Skourtaniotietal2022

mount123 said:
Thanks to user Trojet for analyzing the Mygdalia bam files we now know that they are Z615(xZ597). These are new aDNA additions to already present and older Z615(xZ597) sample ID MOK15 2100-1800 BCE from EBA Mokrin Necropolis Vojvodina, Northern Serbia.

ID MYG001

MBA/LBA Mygdalia, Achaia, Greece1600-1450 BCE (~1525 BCE)

J2b-L283>Z615(xZ597)

https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/view/PRJEB56216
ID MYG008

MBA/LBA Mygdalia, Achaia, Greece1600-1450 BCE (~1525 BCE)

J2b-L283>Z615(xZ597)

https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/view/PRJEB56216
ID MYG006

MBA/LBA Mygdalia, Achaia, Greece1600-1450 BCE (~1525 BCE)

J2b-L283>Z615(xZ597)

https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/view/PRJEB56216
ID MYG005

MBA/LBA Mygdalia, Achaia, Greece1600-1450 BCE (~1525 BCE)

J2b-L283>Z615(xZ597)

https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/view/PRJEB56216
Click to expand...

Any information of MYG002, MYG003, MYG004?

Also where did he obtain it? I'd like to label the samples Salento produced.
 
7ZpC1ur.png


Another PCA with more detailed labels for modern Greeks and Italians
 
Salento said:
HGC055 might be y T1a3b, though I can only work with the data that I have, maybe they have better data than mine, or maybe not :)
Click to expand...


i just checked.....they state they are both the same marker

HGC010 and HGC055 belong to the same clade T1a3b2-Y11151>Y8614>Y12871>Y14629>BY59831, formed in FTDNA Block Tree by one Italian and one French sample.

I don't know what they refer to in the last sentence
 
torzio said:
i just checked.....they state they are both the same marker
HGC010 and HGC055 belong to the same clade T1a3b2-Y11151>Y8614>Y12871>Y14629>BY59831, formed in FTDNA Block Tree by one Italian and one French sample.
I don't know what they refer to in the last sentence
Click to expand...


snp reminds me of the old etruscan sample of a few years ago
 
torzio said:
i just checked.....they state they are both the same marker
HGC010 and HGC055 belong to the same clade T1a3b2-Y11151>Y8614>Y12871>Y14629>BY59831, formed in FTDNA Block Tree by one Italian and one French sample.
I don't know what they refer to in the last sentence
Click to expand...


yfull only have it up to T-Y14629

https://www.yfull.com/tree/T-Y14629/
 
torzio said:
i just checked.....they state they are both the same marker

HGC010 and HGC055 belong to the same clade T1a3b2-Y11151>Y8614>Y12871>Y14629>BY59831, formed in FTDNA Block Tree by one Italian and one French sample.

I don't know what they refer to in the last sentence
Click to expand...

… totally different line from ours, maybe there’s an Italo-Franco T1a3 group that we are not aware of, but these two are neither Italian nor French.

7FUewcv.jpg


zRqo4zO.jpg
 
Jovialis said:
Any information of MYG002, MYG003, MYG004?

Also where did he obtain it? I'd like to label the samples Salento produced.
Click to expand...
The paper isn't out yet but the raw data has been officially uploaded to ENA Browser yesterday, I have posted the link in the tabel before: https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/view/PRJEB56216. He has analyzed the .bam files that have been uploaded.

The Mygdalia samples MYG001, MYG008, MYG006, MYG002, MYG003, MYG005 (minus MYG004) represent a family that share the same paternal grandfather. It is very likely that they are descendants of Cetina-Dinaric settlers in Achaia as archeological Cetina artefacts have been found in close vicinity. This is also in line with archeological papers on Cetina migrations into the Peloponnese.

Next to their paternal phylogeny they also have an elevated ancient East Adriatic auDNA component which makes them more "Central Med"-like, if one likes to compare them to modern pops.

From the presentation (square represents a male, circle a female):
unknown.png

unknown.png
 
Salento said:
… totally different line from ours, maybe there’s an Italo-Franco T1a3 group that we are not aware of, but these two are neither Italian nor French.
7FUewcv.jpg

zRqo4zO.jpg
Click to expand...
middle sentence was not from me .............thats why i posed the query in the last sentence ...............there is an italian from potenza in yfull with this marker though.

the marker presents mostly ancient kazaks ..............and now persian gulf people, both saudi and iranians ( persians ) .................persians did originate around southern kazaks and moved to iran circa 1000bc
 
mount123 said:
The paper isn't out yet but the raw data has been officially uploaded to ENA Browser yesterday, I have posted the link in the tabel before: https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/view/PRJEB56216. He has analyzed the .bam files that have been uploaded.

The Mygdalia samples MYG001, MYG008, MYG006, MYG002, MYG003, MYG005 (minus MYG004) represent a family that share the same paternal grandfather. It is very likely that they are descendants of Cetina-Dinaric settlers in Achaia as archeological Cetina artefacts have been found in close vicinity. This is also in line with archeological papers on Cetina migrations into the Peloponnese.

Next to their paternal phylogeny they also have an elevated ancient East Adriatic auDNA component which makes them more "Central Med"-like, if one likes to compare them to modern pops.

From the presentation (square represents a male, circle a female):
unknown.png

unknown.png
Click to expand...

Okay cool,

I recall the Max Planck Institute did the same thing with the Etruscan samples. Which was release the BAMs before the study, or pre-print.
 
It is noticeable that which are high in Steppe, be it in the Peloponnese, Central Greece or Thessaly are from a location not too close to the Sea. So during the BA it is the coastal region which had less steppe admixture, not just the islands. Logkas-like samples could have been found as far South as the central Peloponnese. While Crete_armenoi is clearly an example of the two varieties of people intermixing in Crete.

On that note, the Dorian invasion is described by historians as the 'return' if the Heraclids. Perhaps tribes from the North of Greece inhabited the Peloponnese before. Then they were expelled, or pulled back to the mountains, after which during the LBA they came back (along with other Dorian invaders from the North of Greece) and reclaimed their lands. Ending the Mycenaen civilization as we know it.
 
Dianatomia said:
It is noticeable that which are high in Steppe, be it in the Peloponnese, Central Greece or Thessaly are from a location not too close to the Sea. So during the BA it is the coastal region which had less steppe admixture, not just the islands. Logkas-like samples could have been found as far South as the central Peloponnese. While Crete_armenoi is clearly an example of the two varieties of people intermixing in Crete.
On that note, the Dorian invasion is described by historians as the 'return' if the Heraclids. Perhaps tribes from the North of Greece inhabited the Peloponnese before. Then they were expelled, or pulled back to the mountains, after which during the LBA they came back (along with other Dorian invaders from the North of Greece) and reclaimed their lands. Ending the Mycenaen civilization as we know it.
Click to expand...
EBA Helladic was minoan-like, which is Greece_N-like. I.E. similar to people prior to Steppe admixture. So how could they "reclaim" the land, if the more Greece_N-like people were there thousands of years prior? Also log04 is 50% steppe yet not even " north "of Northern Italians, thus within and of itself a hybrid of steppe and Greece_N/minoan.Minoan.

The peopling of Greece was facilitated by Greece_N/Minoan mixing with straight up Yamnaya-like people.
 
I'm a bit confused about the autosomal signature of these people, and the claim that they are more "Central European" like. From the results of our Italian members, the more Southern Italian members have the closest distances.

Plus,
 
Plus, look at these:
Distance to:XAN053_61.09%cov
14.66917176Sephardic_Jew
15.10772650Italian_Campania
15.12619913Italian_Jew
15.27585022Italian_Calabria
15.40943867Morocco_Jew
15.79257104Italian_Molise
16.22543374Greek_Icaria
16.33720294Ashkenazi_Jew
16.59758416Italian_Sicily
17.28421245Italian_Abruzzo
17.86401131Moldovan_Jewish
17.97663484Italian_Basilicata
18.36098211Italian_Marche
18.43578314Greek_Rhodes
18.49334205French_Corsica
18.73847913Greek_Kos
19.00822454Greek_Fournoi
19.31420462Italian_Apulia
19.53214530Greek_Izmir
19.74682506Greek_Crete
19.80247207Italian_Lazio
19.82787684Italian_Umbria
20.44889973Greek_Lemnos
20.52544275Italian_Romagna
20.62219678Greek_Foca


Distance to:HGC055-065_48.19%cov
11.02179205Sephardic_Jew
12.05937395Morocco_Jew
13.15706654Italian_Jew
13.98865254Greek_Icaria
14.11943696Italian_Calabria
15.39860059Italian_Campania
15.62668231Greek_Rhodes
15.67226531Ashkenazi_Jew
16.20612539Italian_Sicily
16.23312970Greek_Kos
16.62679163Italian_Molise
16.98957327Moldovan_Jewish
17.30373081Greek_Cypriot
17.48361233Greek_Fournoi
17.77976659Italian_Basilicata
18.01842668Italian_Abruzzo
18.17789867Greek_Crete
18.46868701Greek_Izmir
18.52757944Turk_Cyprus
19.62074922Italian_Apulia
20.36660993Greek_Lemnos
20.81074002Greek_Foca
20.90523867Italian_Marche
21.46139557Greek_Cappadocia
21.89359952Greek_Athens

Distance to:APO044_15.56%cov
21.34890395Sardinian
21.94275507Sephardic_Jew
22.12142627Morocco_Jew
23.09106321Italian_Jew
23.14068927Italian_Campania
23.20275846French_Corsica
23.36750522Italian_Calabria
23.76311848Italian_Molise
23.89682406Greek_Icaria
24.67740464Italian_Sicily
24.72705603Ashkenazi_Jew
25.06180161Italian_Abruzzo
25.33179512Italian_Marche
25.87250471Italian_Basilicata
26.01550307Greek_Rhodes
26.28576801Moldovan_Jewish
26.50369597Greek_Kos
26.65378772Italian_Umbria
26.92067793Italian_Romagna
26.94237926Italian_Lazio
27.12444101Greek_Fournoi
27.44255090Italian_Apulia
27.60571680Greek_Izmir
27.63130471Italian_Tuscany
27.85470158Greek_Crete


Distance to:AID002_74.78%cov
7.53334587Greek_Icaria
7.55581895Italian_Calabria
7.74685743Italian_Campania
8.17245373Ashkenazi_Jew
8.64706309Italian_Molise
9.09114404Italian_Jew
9.18017429Italian_Sicily
9.37428397Sephardic_Jew
9.65755145Moldovan_Jewish
9.89943433Greek_Fournoi
10.23464215Greek_Izmir
10.24983414Greek_Rhodes
10.29438682Greek_Kos
10.38537433Italian_Abruzzo
10.54419271Italian_Basilicata
10.66394392Greek_Crete
11.21557399Italian_Apulia
11.91551090Greek_Foca
11.95373163Greek_Lemnos
12.58106514Morocco_Jew
12.96199830Greek_Athens
13.69052227Greek_Central
13.95916273Italian_Marche
14.16476968Turk_Cyprus
14.81434778Italian_Lazio
Distance to:KRO009_52.77%cov
6.25955621Italian_Marche
6.54577726Italian_Umbria
6.75549406Italian_Romagna
6.98584283French_Corsica
7.50082662Italian_Lazio
7.97682894Italian_Tuscany
9.35032620Italian_Emilia
9.85776344Italian_Liguria
10.03781351Italian_Abruzzo
10.33834610Italian_Molise
10.82504503Albanian
11.34969163Italian_Campania
11.53932840Greek_Athens
11.68014983Greek_Central
12.10379279Italian_Lombardy
12.17452668Greek_Thrace
12.24598710Italian_Apulia
12.26681703Greek_Thessaly
12.32048295Italian_Sicily
12.58990071Greek_Peloponnese
12.62158865Italian_Basilicata
12.74845481Albanian_Kosovo
13.13945965Greek_Thessaloniki
13.19720425Italian_Piedmont
13.26028280Italian_Veneto


Distance to:KUK002_44.46%cov
13.23608326Sephardic_Jew
14.48491629Greek_Icaria
15.21100588Morocco_Jew
15.51436753Italian_Jew
15.77803853Italian_Calabria
16.50850690Greek_Rhodes
16.73546235Italian_Campania
17.21961962Greek_Kos
17.30458032Ashkenazi_Jew
17.84411948Italian_Molise
17.85118764Italian_Sicily
18.37867514Greek_Cypriot
18.55424749Greek_Fournoi
18.59415500Moldovan_Jewish
19.13360395Greek_Crete
19.13722028Greek_Izmir
19.20293467Italian_Basilicata
19.27067980Italian_Abruzzo
19.76099188Turk_Cyprus
20.76584696Italian_Apulia
21.41706329Greek_Lemnos
21.43533765Greek_Cappadocia
21.49077709Greek_Foca
22.08131074Italian_Marche
22.62703030Greek_Athens


Distance to:MYG002_38.92%cov
6.19891926Italian_Umbria
6.45736014Italian_Romagna
6.49431474Italian_Marche
7.38719162Italian_Lazio
7.69224285French_Corsica
7.72240895Italian_Tuscany
8.90560498Italian_Emilia
9.32622110Albanian
9.41868887Italian_Liguria
10.44811466Italian_Abruzzo
10.88943066Greek_Athens
10.98152539Greek_Thrace
10.98885799Greek_Thessaly
11.00938690Italian_Molise
11.02239085Greek_Central
11.15137211Albanian_Kosovo
11.34293613Italian_Lombardy
11.72576650Greek_Thessaloniki
11.75787396Greek_Peloponnese
12.02302375Italian_Veneto
12.17553695Italian_Campania
12.35788008Italian_Apulia
12.45529606Italian_Piedmont
12.67707379Macedonian_South
13.08071863Macedonian_Vardar

Distance to:NST004_11.60%cov
10.46908783Sephardic_Jew
12.00549874Greek_Cypriot
12.71014949Italian_Jew
12.97169997Morocco_Jew
13.31042824Greek_Icaria
13.45297365Greek_Rhodes
14.27177634Greek_Kos
14.78501606Turk_Cyprus
14.85305356Italian_Calabria
16.31314807Ashkenazi_Jew
16.84858154Nusayri_Turkey
16.92851441Italian_Campania
17.05073019Greek_Cappadocia
17.15345155Greek_Crete
17.18796672Greek_Fournoi
17.52227440Lebanese_Christian
17.60185502Moldovan_Jewish
17.84576140Italian_Sicily
17.99451861Palestinian_Christian
18.17902638Jordanian_Christian
18.22024972Syrian_Christian
18.33255847Italian_Molise
18.56653710Greek_Izmir
19.12012552Italian_Basilicata
20.06499689Lebanese_Muslim


I just chose at random provided the coverage was decent.
 
Jovialis said:
EBA Helladic was minoan-like, which is Greece_N-like. I.E. similar to people prior to Steppe admixture. So how could they "reclaim" the land, if the more Greece_N-like people were there thousands of years prior? Also log04 is 50% steppe yet not even " north "of Northern Italians, thus within and of itself a hybrid of steppe and Greece_N/minoan.Minoan.
The peopling of Greece was facilitated by Greece_N/Minoan mixing with straight up Yamnaya-like people.
Click to expand...
Whenever we mention BA Greeks we talk of a population that is already a mix of Minoan-like and yamnaya tribes. Perhaps Dinatomia wonders if this tale about Heraclids is a legend of some early greeks getting pushed back north from some other early greeks that went south a couple of centuries earlier.
That being said I don’t find this event likely at all. Given the data (Mycenaeans low on steppe, Logkas high on steppe, Dorians/Epirotans/Macedonians all speaking dialects closely related to each other ) I see a possible pattern.
When yamnaya arrived in the Helladic region they met a more densely populated area full of Minoan-like individuals. These two fully intermixed up north (around Haliacmon), and from that point some of their descendants (the first Greeks) still probably semi nomadic pastoralists etc started to move south, further mixing with the other Minoan-like people. This transition explains why Mycenaeans eventually had only low amount of steppe and why the minority element of the mix (yamnaya) actually became the dominant linguistic factor (gradual assimilation as they went on).The more advanced Aegean culture refined Mycenaeans too.
Mycenaean Greek dialect eventually morphed into Ionic/Attic as we moved towards Iron Age.
While all these things transpired, rest of the Greeks from Haliacmon area, those that didn’t go south, didn’t get further mixed with more Minoan-like Helladic tribes, stayed isolated which means their dialect started to diverge from what was spoken further south. Some of them started to move south around the time of the Bronze Age collapse, and those brought the Doric dialects south.
Finally some were still left behind, eventually forming the kingdoms of Macedon and Epirus. Inscriptions we have from those areas around the 5th and 4th century BCE show significant affinity to Dorian dialects, with the famous usage of “A” instead of “Η” (ΑΠΕΙΡΩΤΑΝ vs ΗΠΕΙΡΩΤΩΝ or ΛΕΩΝΙΔΑΣ instead of ΛΕΩΝΙΔΗΣ). Those people were seen as cruder and backwater from the rest of Greeks.
If we ever get some Iron Age samples from those first Dorians there may be some higher steppe individuals in there. Epirotans and Macedonians I would 100% expect them to score significantly more steppe than Mycenean samples.
As for Dinatomia’s observation about higher steppe occurring away from the sea, I think it is consistent with what we know from medieval times and the Slavic migrations who were at their strongest inland and on the mountains. My paternal side is from Messinia and my father’s brother took a wife that originated from the most mountainous and isolated area in Arcadia (Gortynia). An extremely blond/grey eyed woman. My male first cousin was a Macauley Culkin doppelgänger when home alone came out and his sister wasn’t much darker. They are still very blond in their 40s.
 
As comparison ... same samples posted by Angela ( #74) in EU K13:

Code: 
AID002_EU_K13,16.18,5.84,28.80,13.06,31.40,1.74,0,1.29,0,0.46,0.89,0,0.34
APO044_EU_K13,13.23,0,41.23,0,38.09,6.25,0,0,0,0,0.90,0,0.30
HGC055-065_EU_K13,10.01,0,35.29,11.69,36.73,4.67,0,0,0.95,0.15,0.53,0,0
XAN053_EU_K13,16.98,0,34.78,5.49,32.72,7.46,0,1.46,0,0,0.99,0,0.12
NST004_EU_K13,7.55,0.54,26.28,14.18,38.38,10.06,1.95,0,1.06,0,0,0,0
MYG002_EU_K13,27.84,8.46,24.66,9.64,23.01,2.97,0,0,1.34,0.75,0.82,0.36,0.15
KUK002_EU_K13,13.99,0,30.18,8.71,41.68,3.61,0,0.45,0,0.49,0.88,0,0
KRO009_EU_K13,26.78,6.92,26.01,8.83,25.27,2.24,0,0,0,1.13,0.90,1.61,0.30

wWbyysY.png
 
If you prefer Eurog. K13 to Dodecad K12, think again :)
 
Kuivamaa said:
Whenever we mention BA Greeks we talk of a population that is already a mix of Minoan-like and yamnaya tribes. Perhaps Dinatomia wonders if this tale about Heraclids is a legend of some early greeks getting pushed back north from some other early greeks that went south a couple of centuries earlier.
That being said I don’t find this event likely at all. Given the data (Mycenaeans low on steppe, Logkas high on steppe, Dorians/Epirotans/Macedonians all speaking dialects closely related to each other ) I see a possible pattern.
When yamnaya arrived in the Helladic region they met a more densely populated area full of Minoan-like individuals. These two fully intermixed up north (around Haliacmon), and from that point some of their descendants (the first Greeks) still probably semi nomadic pastoralists etc started to move south, further mixing with the other Minoan-like people. This transition explains why Mycenaeans eventually had only low amount of steppe and why the minority element of the mix (yamnaya) actually became the dominant linguistic factor (gradual assimilation as they went on).The more advanced Aegean culture refined Mycenaeans too.
Mycenaean Greek dialect eventually morphed into Ionic/Attic as we moved towards Iron Age.
While all these things transpired, rest of the Greeks from Haliacmon area, those that didn’t go south, didn’t get further mixed with more Minoan-like Helladic tribes, stayed isolated which means their dialect started to diverge from what was spoken further south. Some of them started to move south around the time of the Bronze Age collapse, and those brought the Doric dialects south.
Finally some were still left behind, eventually forming the kingdoms of Macedon and Epirus. Inscriptions we have from those areas around the 5th and 4th century BCE show significant affinity to Dorian dialects, with the famous usage of “A” instead of “Η” (ΑΠΕΙΡΩΤΑΝ vs ΗΠΕΙΡΩΤΩΝ or ΛΕΩΝΙΔΑΣ instead of ΛΕΩΝΙΔΗΣ). Those people were seen as cruder and backwater from the rest of Greeks.
If we ever get some Iron Age samples from those first Dorians there may be some higher steppe individuals in there. Epirotans and Macedonians I would 100% expect them to score significantly more steppe than Mycenean samples.
As for Dinatomia’s observation about higher steppe occurring away from the sea, I think it is consistent with what we know from medieval times and the Slavic migrations who were at their strongest inland and on the mountains. My paternal side is from Messinia and my father’s brother took a wife that originated from the most mountainous and isolated area in Arcadia (Gortynia). An extremely blond/grey eyed woman. My male first cousin was a Macauley Culkin doppelgänger when home alone came out and his sister wasn’t much darker. They are still very blond in their 40s.
Click to expand...

The higher steppe admixture of the North could also be explained if the south had larger population whenever the mixture happened
 
Omino said:
The higher steppe admixture of the North could also be explained if the south had larger population whenever the mixture happened
Click to expand...

This is also a farmer vs. pastoralist moment. Pastoralists and agro-pastoralits with an animal husbandry focus just replace locals, but if pastoralists meet farmers, they can use them to acquire the surplus production. So if a conqueror encountered a well-organised and productive farmer society, he is more likely to just subdue them or ally up, than with fellow pastoralists/mobile agro-pastoralists which occupy the same niche and are of no use, unless they need more numbers in a desperate war effort.
 
Riverman said:
This is also a farmer vs. pastoralist moment. Pastoralists and agro-pastoralits with an animal husbandry focus just replace locals, but if pastoralists meet farmers, they can use them to acquire the surplus production. So if a conqueror encountered a well-organised and productive farmer society, he is more likely to just subdue them or ally up, than with fellow pastoralists/mobile agro-pastoralists which occupy the same niche and are of no use, unless they need more numbers in a desperate war effort.
Click to expand...

If I recall from the German/Greek study from Biomuse, the Ancient Greeks (similar to LBA Mycenaeans i.e. high Minoan/Greece_N 85-90% and minority steppe 10-15%) have a very high protein diet, something like 90%.

9DYO3Rc.png
 
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