Ancient DNA, admx. history and endogamy in the prehistoricAegean Skourtaniotietal2022

[Omino]

This is also a farmer vs. pastoralist moment. Pastoralists and agro-pastoralits with an animal husbandry focus just replace locals, but if pastoralists meet farmers, they can use them to acquire the surplus production. So if a conqueror encountered a well-organised and productive farmer society, he is more likely to just subdue them or ally up, than with fellow pastoralists/mobile agro-pastoralists which occupy the same niche and are of no use, unless they need more numbers in a desperate war effort.

The invasion/conquest scenario is too simplistic
We do not know exactly how/when/how many arrived
one or multiple waves?Did they have superior weaponry or not? Etc
The are too many blanks to be filled

 

[blevins13]

The invasion/conquest scenario is too simplistic
We do not know exactly how/when/how many arrived
one or multiple waves?Did they have superior weaponry or not? Etc
The are too many blanks to be filled

The scenario of the “lingua franca” is even more simplistic than invasion/conquest.


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[torzio]

… totally different line from ours, maybe there’s an Italo-Franco T1a3 group that we are not aware of, but these two are neither Italian nor French.

this marker is linked with North Caucasus Maykop area....similar to ancient sample

Ipatovo 3 ( 5400 yBP - Early Bronze Age ) Early Steppe Maykop Culture


IV3002 ( 5383 ± 64 yBP )
Kurgan: 2
Phase: 1st
Grave: 187 ( Founding grave of the entire mound )
Other dates: 5058 ± 223 yBP / 5328 ± 251 yBP / 4630 ± 50 yBP (radiocarbon)
Y-DNA: T1-CTS6004 (xT1a1a-CTS484, T1a1b-Y6031, T1a2b-FGC37316) Probably: T1a3-Y8614 in yfull
mtDNA: X1'2'3
Age at Death: 35-45

 

[Omino]

The scenario of the “lingua franca” is even more simplistic than invasion/conquest.
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Never wrote such thing,I just wrote that the invasion/conquest scenario is way too simplistic when it could also be several ways of immigrations or a combination of them.
(Especially when we do not know the size of all sides and their military capabilities)

 

[blevins13]

Never wrote such thing,I just wrote that the invasion/conquest scenario is way too simplistic
(Especially when we do not know the numbers of all sides and their military capabilities)

I did not say that you did, from Lazaridis last study. He did not see invasion/conquest as one of the options.


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[Kuivamaa]

The higher steppe admixture of the North could also be explained if the south had larger population whenever the mixture happened

Certainly, but It is harder to explain the language switch this way compared to the slow assimilation through gradual intermixing. Assimilation in steps is consistent with what happened to Crete (the last Helladic pre-IE bastion) as well.

 

[Angela]

Btw, the steppe people didn't arrive until the end of/or after the Early Bronze Age. Nor is there an iota of proof for many of the propositions put forth in some of the latest posts.

That's fine, of course, as long as we keep in mind that they are opinions not supported by fact.

Another thing that comes to mind when thinking about the agro-pastoralist meeting with farmers is that there need not have been violence at all in certain situations, especially when the "farmers" were rich societies already in the Bronze Age, as was the case in Greece, for example.

What people are ignoring is that the lands on the coast convenient for trading, and the flat plains are what brought wealth. However, there was lots of mountainous scrublands whichwould be fine for pastoralists. Some of you are talking about the highest percentages of Slavic ancestry are found in some areas on the mountains. So you think the rich farmerscared if the Slavs went to settle there?

Some of the same thing happened in Italy, with the I.E. admixed people being found in the mountain ranges.

This hypothesis leaves the language unexplained. My best guess, and we're all guessing here, is that something happened which turned the tables. Could there have
been another plague to which the newcomers were more resistant? Were the newcomers paid to be soldiers, and like the Germanic mercenaries in Rome, did they betray
their masters?

 

[Jovialis]

Btw, the steppe people didn't arrive until the end of/or after the Early Bronze Age. Nor is there an iota of proof for many of the propositions put forth in some of the latest posts.

That's fine, of course, as long as we keep in mind that they are opinions not supported by fact.

Another thing that comes to mind when thinking about the agro-pastoralist meeting with farmers is that there need not have been violence at all in certain situations, especially when the "farmers" were rich societies already in the Bronze Age, as was the case in Greece, for example.

What people are ignoring is that the lands on the coast convenient for trading, and the flat plains are what brought wealth. However, there was lots of mountainous scrublands whichwould be fine for pastoralists. Some of you are talking about the highest percentages of Slavic ancestry are found in some areas on the mountains. So you think the rich farmerscared if the Slavs went to settle there?

Some of the same thing happened in Italy, with the I.E. admixed people being found in the mountain ranges.

This hypothesis leaves the language unexplained. My best guess, and we're all guessing here, is that something happened which turned the tables. Could there have
been another plague to which the newcomers were more resistant? Were the newcomers paid to be soldiers, and like the Germanic mercenaries in Rome, did they betray
their masters?

That's a good point about mercenaries. From the Himera Greeks, we see they employed people from Northern Europe. However the true Greeks were all within the range of Mycenaean-like people, and even some overlapping with modern south Italians.

 

[ihype02]

Any information of MYG002, MYG003, MYG004?

Also where did he obtain it? I'd like to label the samples Salento produced.

West Balkan admixed people. They plot more northernly than the average. I doubt they are Dorians or even related with the Steppe migrations at all. But you never know. Can someone confirm if they are family?

 

[ihype02]

The paper isn't out yet but the raw data has been officially uploaded to ENA Browser yesterday, I have posted the link in the tabel before: https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/view/PRJEB56216. He has analyzed the .bam files that have been uploaded.

The Mygdalia samples MYG001, MYG008, MYG006, MYG002, MYG003, MYG005 (minus MYG004) represent a family that share the same paternal grandfather. It is very likely that they are descendants of Cetina-Dinaric settlers in Achaia as archeological Cetina artefacts have been found in close vicinity. This is also in line with archeological papers on Cetina migrations into the Peloponnese.

Next to their paternal phylogeny they also have an elevated ancient East Adriatic auDNA component which makes them more "Central Med"-like, if one likes to compare them to modern pops.

From the presentation (square represents a male, circle a female):

Did not saw this.

 

[Angela]

One family does not make a regional migration pattern. Just saying.

 

[torzio]

That's a good point about mercenaries. From the Himera Greeks, we see they employed people from Northern Europe. However the true Greeks were all within the range of Mycenaean-like people, and even some overlapping with modern south Italians.

I would like to see where the 14 Epirote tribes fit as Greeks or Not

Chaones and Molossians ( the 2 biggest of the 14 tribes ) are clearly different from each other

 

[Kuivamaa]

What people are ignoring is that the lands on the coast convenient for trading, and the flat plains are what brought wealth. However, there was lots of mountainous scrublands whichwould be fine for pastoralists. Some of you are talking about the highest percentages of Slavic ancestry are found in some areas on the mountains. So you think the rich farmerscared if the Slavs went to settle there?

The starting point of this topic (the further away from the sea you go the higher the steppe admixture) was Dinatomia’s observation which raised my eyebrow because it is consistent with what happened during the arrival of Slavs in Greece. I am not sure if the feelings of rich farmers are relevant to this but plains and coastal areas have many advantages (access to food, trade, produce, milder climate for the most part) and one disadvantage (more vulnerable to sea raids). The scale is always in favor of the former. If you are a settler and don’t go there, there must be good reasons.
Slavs arrived in clans and avoided conflict with locals or the Roman military. By most accords it was a seemingly peaceful entry of people that were looking not for conquest or plunder but for a new home and picked remote and presumably mostly unclaimed areas.
In comparison to the initial arrival of IE speakers in what is today Greece, the Slavic migration probably happened at a much faster pace. While it is unclear when exactly yamnaya reached the Proto-Greek area (Roughly Haliacmon probably), scholars put the linguistic osmosis between 2200-1900BCE which hints at 2300BCE as the earliest point yamnaya appeared. By 1600BCE we have archaeological proof that a cultural shift has happened throughout the Helladic mainland with Chamber tombs found all the way to the extreme southwest (Thouria in Messenia, full juxtaposition to the northeastern point of entry of yamnaya).It took a further century or two for Crete to follow suit. This new culture coincides with a new language and a new dna signal albeit a weak one further south. That being said it is clear these three conditions are directly linked with one another and is also clear the transition from pre-IE languages to Greek took several centuries.
We do not know how it exactly happened and how it was even possible for a minority to pull that off (the Slavs for example adopted the Greek language instead of spreading their own tongue). But we do know it was a slow process and we have initial data that points toward steppe signal getting weaker down south so this hypothesis isn’t just conjecture.

 

[Kuivamaa]

I would like to see where the 14 Epirote tribes fit as Greeks or Not

Chaones and Molossians ( the 2 biggest of the 14 tribes ) are clearly different from each other

if by Greek you mean Mycenaean profile, my guess is no.

 

[blevins13]

One family does not make a regional migration pattern. Just saying.

In the past we have discussed the tumulus burials in Greece, they are not vast but there is definitely a certain dispersion. So I see no surprise in relation with this.




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[Francesco]

We have several instances of linguistic changes that aren't linked to a demographic replacement, with Latin being maybe the most striking example. Maybe, the spread and the adoption of proto-Greek in middle bronze age Aegean area could be explained by some sort of political reason, which we will probably never know. Personally, I find the hypothesis of tribes initially used as mercenaries and settled in mountainous area and then gaining an overwhelming political influence pretty sensible and fashinating, even if we don't have any direct proof of it.

 

[ihype02]

Northern mainland Greece was historically less populated and most of Epirus by the Roman era became empty. So even if the northerns turn out to be different from southern Greeks I doubt it will change much.

 

[kingjohn]

this what teepean user from anthrogenica posted
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1Umrj-Eug6dooeWkct0w6R90UoX6j_1cY?usp=share_link
and based on that pribislav did some anlaysis
i am posting some of his anlaysis :

LAZ017 is definitely J1-Y19093>ZS50>ZS5071* (xBY119669,M10096)

NST012 has much lower coverage, but he is also Y6313+, Y6304+, Y19093+ and ZS50+.


By the way, XAN016 is without a doubt E-L618>CTS10912>BY6578, with six derived SNPs, and no ancestral.


Here is one J2a batch:


XAN024; Chania, Crete, Greece; https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-MF10501/

XAN029; Chania, Crete, Greece; https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z36829/

XAN031; Chania, Crete, Greece; https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y17002/

XAN041; Chania, Crete, Greece; https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-V2639/

TIR010; Tiryns, Argolis, Greece; https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-V2639/

This is the first appearance of clade V2639 in aDNA record. It suffered a huge bottleneck (~9300 years), and is found today almost exclusively among Nakh peoples (Chechens and Ingush).

ok i continue to post his anlaysis

We got one very basal J1-P58 sample from Crete, with pretty good coverage too:

HGC001; ~2300-1900 BC; Hagios Charalambos cave, Crete; https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-P58/

P58 level: 10 derived SNPs

P58>CTS9721 level: 1 ancestral SNP

P58>CTS9721>Z643 level: 4 ancestral SNPs

P58>CTS9721>Y4067 level: 8 ancestral SNPs

P58>ZS12519 level: *no calls*

P58>ZS12519>ZS12454 level: 19 ancestral SNPs

P58>ZS12519>Y205364 level: 20 ancestral SNPs

Four more Hagios Charalambos samples likely belong to the same P58 lineage, but have much lower coverage: HGC002, HGC005, HGC013 and HGC063. All four of them have at least one confidently derived SNP at P58 level.



HGC006, HGC009 and HGC017 belong to the same clade https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y36180/ , formed in FTDNA Block Tree by one Italian and one Mexican sample.

HGC010 and HGC055 belong to the same clade https://www.yfull.com/tree/T-Y14629/, formed in FTDNA Block Tree by one Italian and one French sample.

AID002; Aidonia, Corinthia; https://www.yfull.com/tree/C-F16270/

AID007; Aidonia, Corinthia; https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y24510/

AID008; Aidonia, Corinthia; https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y24510/

XAN030; Chania, Crete; https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-PF7562/

XAN035; Chania, Crete;https://www.yfull.com/tree/C-V3918/

XAN051; Chania, Crete;https://www.yfull.com/tree/G-Y130324/

NST005; Nea Styra, Euboea; https://www.yfull.com/tree/G-PF3378/

GLI003; Glika Nera, Attica; https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-PF5252/

APO025; Aposelemis, Crete; https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z7671/

MYG004; Mygdalia, Achaia; https://www.yfull.com/tree/G-BY109656/

LAZ018; Lazarides, Aegina; https://www.yfull.com/tree/G-PF3177/Finally, some J2a-M319 appear:

HGC037; 2400-1800 BC; Hagios Charalambos cave, Crete; https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-M319/

HGC015; 2400-1800 BC; Hagios Charalambos cave, Crete; https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y151557/

HGC018; 2400-1800 BC; Hagios Charalambos cave, Crete; https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y151557/

HGC031; 2400-1800 BC; Hagios Charalambos cave, Crete; https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y151557/



p.s
hope he will anlayse GLI002 dude which theytree site said he is a splitt level inside e-m84
https://www.theytree.com/tree/E-S9621

 

[Jovialis]

Great information kingjohn, thanks!

 

[Angela]

Well, what do you know? J1-P58 made it from Southern Anatolia presumably into Crete by the Bronze Age. I did tell everyone we'd be bound to find it given the location not only of the early farmers, but the documented movement from Anatolia west during the Bronze Age. I always said there wasn't some Game of Thrones like WALL keeping all the J1 men out of Anatolia.