Ancient DNA, admx. history and endogamy in the prehistoricAegean Skourtaniotietal2022

Angela said:
As I always said, Napoleon's e-m34 could have arrived in Italy during the Bronze Age or the Iron Age. I thought then and think now that paper which proposed it was Moorish in origin was rather silly. They based it on the fact that one of his ancestors had the nickname "Il Moro". Apparently, no one ever told them that it is rather common in Italy to give that nickname to someone who is unusually dark. It need have nothing to do with a known Moorish ancestor.

Il Moro, Ludovico Sforza, Duke of Milan, who was descended from a condottiere. That's an ancient Roman nose if ever I saw one. What he lacked in beauty he made up for in intelligence and ambition.

sforza-ludovico-called-the-moor-everett.jpg
Click to expand...

Yeah you are right Haplogroup E-M123 is low frequency in North Africa in North Africa is related with Jewish
I think some subclades under E-M123 it's arrived to south europea via balkan a period EEF trans Balkan
what do you Think ?
https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/E-FGC61682/tree
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y30564/
 
capisan said:
Yeah you are right Haplogroup E-M123 is low frequency in North Africa in North Africa is related with Jewish
I think some subclades under E-M123 it's arrived to south europea via balkan a period EEF trans Balkan
what do you Think ?
https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/E-FGC61682/tree
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y30564/
Click to expand...


yes caspian it look like
there are some branches of e-m34 specifically under the e-z841 branch
who potentially might be old and not recent in europe
we do need ancient dna to back it up to be sure:unsure:

p.s
about the Glica Nera GLI002 remain he might be some rare branch of pre-e-m84 line
who made it to mainland greece by late bronze age but later died out :(

GLI002 is very low coverage autosomally speaking
so you might ask in anthrogenica for someone to check GLI003 the j2 dude from
this site he was in better coverage for autosomall analysis

napoleon belong to a parallel branch to pre-e-m84 he is under e-z841
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-PH3893/

ftdna tmrca is sometimes little bit different from yfull tmrca
but i do agree with angela though that napoleon branch could have made it to europe by the iron age
https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/E-PH3893/story
 
all the crazy, lunatic, mindless dictators seem to be E ydna

Hitler
Napoleon

was Stalin also E ??
 
Honestly, this is taking resentment that he got rid of the stagnant, doddering, Venetian oligarchy much too far.

Whatever else he was, Napoleon was not crazy, or a lunatic, and far from mindless.

The French behavior in Venezia was inexcusable in many respects, but putting an end to monarchies and oligarchies can only be a good thing, imo.

Anyone who would cluster him with Hitler doesn't have a clue about history.
 
Honestly, this is taking resentment that he got rid of the stagnant, doddering, Venetian oligarchy much too far.

Whatever else he was, Napoleon was not crazy, or a lunatic, and far from mindless.

The French behavior in Venezia was inexcusable in many respects, but putting an end to monarchies and oligarchies can only be a good thing, imo.

Anyone who would cluster him with Hitler knows nothing of either man, or indeed knows nothing of European history.

Now, for the umpteenth time, since you've made this comment and asked this exact question at east 10 times, Stalin was G2a, which is totally typical for a Georgian.

If you're looking for monstrous, pitiless conquerors who ruthlessly slaughtered entire populations, including the old, women and children, I think Genghis Khan is top of that particular hit parade, followed perhaps, indeed, by Hitler.

Now, enough with ancient grudges, and back on topic.
 
some people do not know history at all

Napoleons destruction of European nations during his reign let to the Congress of Vienna .........the congress made rules that destroyed all form of governments , ie republics etc in Europe and place all of Europe nations under monarchies.........this eventually let to WW1 , the war of cousins within monarchies

Napoleons wars included, Spain, Portugal, Switzerland and others ............I would say it was greater than Hitler, but of course less populace.

One aspect of the war upon which she remarks is the close connection among the three principal monarchs of the age, Kaiser Wilhelm II of Germany; King George V of England; and Tsar Nicholas II of Russia. In fact, they were all cousins with each other: Wilhelm and George were first cousins, George and Nicholas were also first cousins, and Wilhelm and Nicholas were third cousins.* Wilhelm’s mother was the sister of George’s father; George’s mother and Nicholas’ mother were sisters from the Danish royal family. All three men were also fifth cousins, being equal descendants of King George II of England.
 
torzio said:
all the crazy, lunatic, mindless dictators seem to be E ydna
Hitler
Napoleon
was Stalin also E ??
Click to expand...

I thought I had seen somewhere that Stalin was G ydna.
 
torzio said:
some people do not know history at all
Napoleons destruction of European nations during his reign let to the Congress of Vienna .........the congress made rules that destroyed all form of governments , ie republics etc in Europe and place all of Europe nations under monarchies.........this eventually let to WW1 , the war of cousins within monarchies
Napoleons wars included, Spain, Portugal, Switzerland and others ............I would say it was greater than Hitler, but of course less populace.
One aspect of the war upon which she remarks is the close connection among the three principal monarchs of the age, Kaiser Wilhelm II of Germany; King George V of England; and Tsar Nicholas II of Russia. In fact, they were all cousins with each other: Wilhelm and George were first cousins, George and Nicholas were also first cousins, and Wilhelm and Nicholas were third cousins.* Wilhelm’s mother was the sister of George’s father; George’s mother and Nicholas’ mother were sisters from the Danish royal family. All three men were also fifth cousins, being equal descendants of King George II of England.
Click to expand...


If Napoleon was not a warmonger he would have stopped after securing France ............

but he wanted to rule all of Europe , he wanted to put his family members in places to rule all of Europe, brothers , cousins, etc were made kinds of Spain, Italy, Austria etc etc

BTW, I forgot Sweden was also involved against Napoleon
 
kingjohn said:
yes caspian it look like
there are some branches of e-m34 specifically under the e-z841 branch
who potentially might be old and not recent in europe
we do need ancient dna to back it up to be sure:unsure:

p.s
about the Glica Nera GLI002 remain he might be some rare branch of pre-e-m84 line
who made it to mainland greece by late bronze age but later died out :(

GLI002 is very low coverage autosomally speaking
so you might ask in anthrogenica for someone to check GLI003 the j2 dude from
this site he was in better coverage for autosomall analysis

napoleon belong to a parallel branch to pre-e-m84 he is under e-z841
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-PH3893/

ftdna tmrca is sometimes little bit different from yfull tmrca
but i do agree with angela though that napoleon branch could have made it to europe by the iron age
https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/E-PH3893/story
Click to expand...

Yeah exactly who said is extinction you should will be positive ahaha ,very possible you can find this subclade in Balkan in present before this subclade E-Z36113 (Negative Y31991) was unknown but now is found
 
capisan said:
Yeah exactly who said is extinction you should will be positive ahaha ,very possible you can find this subclade in Balkan in present before this subclade E-Z36113 (Negative Y31991) was unknown but now is found
Click to expand...

I have from ytree site
The calls report of GLI002( which they share kindly with me)
He had 2 negetive calls on E-FT20896 level
 
torzio said:
all the crazy, lunatic, mindless dictators seem to be E ydna
Hitler
Napoleon
was Stalin also E ??
Click to expand...

It's just a chance, random chance. Stalin was G2a. Hitler, we just know he was E-M35, whether E-V13 or the Levantine E-M34 yet to know. Perhaps he was indeed paternally Jewish, or he was just another Austrian E-V13.

But, Hitler didn't create Nazism, he just rose up to the highest ranks thanks to his charlatanism and charm inside his group. The Nazi ideology was already founded, and whether or not with Hitler it was meant to happen, he just rose up to the ranks and served the ideology.

Hitler was crazy in his own way, but not mindless, watch a documentary and you will see how masterful maniupulator he was, how he took advantage of internal Nazi competition, of people competing to impress him, using them separately to his own advantage. Himmler, Goebbels, and some others.

At the end of the day it has nothing to do with Y-DNA, both Napoleon and Hitler were born and raised in a society with much more Y-DNA R1b, and then again having Y-DNA macrohaplogroup E doesn't grant you or curse you with some sort of specificism. It's too deeply rooted in prehistory to share any common psychological traits between each other, just like any other Y-DNA.
 
Hawk said:
It's just a chance, random chance. Stalin was G2a. Hitler, we just know he was E-M35, whether E-V13 or the Levantine E-M34 yet to know. Perhaps he was indeed paternally Jewish, or he was just another Austrian E-V13.

But, Hitler didn't create Nazism, he just rose up to the highest ranks thanks to his charlatanism and charm inside his group. The Nazi ideology was already founded, and whether or not with Hitler it was meant to happen, he just rose up to the ranks and served the ideology.

Hitler was crazy in his own way, but not mindless, watch a documentary and you will see how masterful maniupulator he was, how he took advantage of internal Nazi competition, of people competing to impress him, using them separately to his own advantage. Himmler, Goebbels, and some others.

At the end of the day it has nothing to do with Y-DNA, both Napoleon and Hitler were born and raised in a society with much more Y-DNA R1b, and then again having Y-DNA macrohaplogroup E doesn't grant you or curse you with some sort of specificism. It's too deeply rooted in prehistory to share any common psychological traits between each other, just like any other Y-DNA.
Click to expand...

Nazism is a socialist type and communism is also socialism type ............how far are they apart ?

Only difference between Hitler and Napoleon is the concentration camps of Hitler regime.

I cannot recall who was not involved against Napoleon in Europe..........even the ottomans of the balkans was against Napoleon after his invasion on the mameluks of Egypt. .........Napoleon had a chance to live and learn after he lost in 1813 ( battle of the nations ) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Leipzig
exiled in Elba Italy, he should have just retired and settled down.

I agree with your last paragraph.
 
torzio said:
If Napoleon was not a warmonger he would have stopped after securing France ............
but he wanted to rule all of Europe , he wanted to put his family members in places to rule all of Europe, brothers , cousins, etc were made kinds of Spain, Italy, Austria etc etc
BTW, I forgot Sweden was also involved against Napoleon
Click to expand...

Have you read no history at all? What do you think kings did; what actions did their people believe made them great kings?

The history of Europe is the history of one country or another seeking hegemony in western Europe.

Henry V of England is considered one of the greatest of English kings, and what did he do? Did he write a massive legal code, free the Jews from their ghettos, support literacy and culture? No, none of that; he continued a 100 years long war between England and France. Why was Richard II so despised? Partly because he was a terrible warrior. Why were Richard the First and Edward the Black Prince so idolized, if not for their prowess in battle and seizing of French territory?

Charles V, Holy Roman Emperor, was constantly at war to hold on to his dominions, which included most of Europe. Even that wasn't enough. He also invaded Italy. Francis I of France wanted it too, and between them they despoiled our, or at least "my" country. Were they also in the same cluster as Hitler?

How about Suleiman the Magnificent? How about the Emperor Kaiser Wilhelm of Germany and the Prussian Officer Corps? What on earth do you think World War I was about if not for Germany to conquer as much of Europe as it could?

Were we to list all their yDna I'm sure almost all European and Near Eastern ones would be covered.

Btw, the people over whom these people ruled, and whom they took into battle were more than willing partners. The French adored Napoleon. Even after the disaster of his ill-judged attack on Russia they welcomed him back from Elba with open arms. Do you not know what the Arc de Triomphe in Paris represents? After his death they had to deal with the return of their incompetent royal family and aristocrats, but they swept them away, and who did they install as Emperor, but the man whom they thought was Napoleon's nephew.

One needs to look beyond the narrow parochial concerns of one's own little corner of the world, if one even understands that with a sufficiently objective and open mind and look at the sweep of history and what it tells us. Otherwise, the commentary is going to be childish and just plain WRONG.
 
I wonder if the Peloponnesian study in 2017 had the Y-DNA data.
 
torzio said:
Nazism is a socialist type and communism is also socialism type ............how far are they apart ?

Only difference between Hitler and Napoleon is the concentration camps of Hitler regime.

I cannot recall who was not involved against Napoleon in Europe..........even the ottomans of the balkans was against Napoleon after his invasion on the mameluks of Egypt. .........Napoleon had a chance to live and learn after he lost in 1813 ( battle of the nations ) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Leipzig
exiled in Elba Italy, he should have just retired and settled down.

I agree with your last paragraph.
Click to expand...

Communism = socialism, yes but its sovietic interpretation and application is far to be real socialism.
Nazism = Socialism? Not at all, sorry. Completely disagree here! DO'nt confuse real Socialism and anthill organisation.
 
On suleiman , I agree.

On Kaiser Wilhelm and his handicap ( paralyzed arm from birth ) is unfortunate.........he moved away from the care and guide of his parents to be involved and played as a puppet by warmongers from bismarck and the others............shunning his parents

Napoleon adored by the French, yep ok......so was Hitler adored by the Germans ................Napoleon is still a warmonger like Hitler
 
torzio said:
On suleiman , I agree.
On Kaiser Wilhelm and his handicap ( paralyzed arm from birth ) is unfortunate.........he moved away from the care and guide of his parents to be involved and played as a puppet by warmongers from bismarck and the others............shunning his parents
Napoleon adored by the French, yep ok......so was Hitler adored by the Germans ................Napoleon is still a warmonger like Hitler
Click to expand...


maybe so
but there is no connection between y haplogroup and human behavior
the conquistadors who conqured america were warmonger
and no need to be so smart to understand that most of them were r1b
 
capisan said:
Where can i find G25 in this study ?
Click to expand...

in anthrogenica
in this specific paper thread- page 12



Scaled

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AID017,0.099026,0.12491,-0.006034,-0.033915,0.026466,-0.014781,-0.012691,-0.004154,0.005318,0.038999,-0.002436,0.012889,-0.009812,-0.003578,-0.008822,-0.005171,0.010691,0.000507,0.005279,-0.011756,-0.008859,0.01014,0.007395,0.015665,-0.002874
APO004,0.094473,0.174671,-0.001131,-0.090117,0.048009,-0.051037,-0.005875,-0.001615,0.039269,0.080366,0.008119,0.016785,-0.028097,-0.006744,-0.036237,0.001724,0.033509,-0.003547,0.015587,-0.014257,-0.007112,-0.001978,-0.009367,0.001928,-0.00479
APO022,0.102441,0.173656,-0.009805,-0.084626,0.011079,-0.029005,-0.00235,0.002769,0.020452,0.037541,-0.003085,0.017085,-0.015461,-0.0139,-0.022258,-0.009149,-0.001956,-0.000887,0.009553,-0.020135,-0.000125,0.008037,-0.000986,-0.001084,-0.003712
APO023,0.095611,0.153345,-0.023759,-0.081719,0.019696,-0.032351,-0.001175,-0.004615,0.014726,0.047928,-0.00065,0.02218,-0.028394,-0.000963,-0.02918,-0.014054,0.010822,-0.003041,0.009302,-0.017133,-0.013227,-0.001731,-0.006532,0.005181,0.003952
APO025,0.106994,0.161469,-0.009051,-0.079781,0.031083,-0.025937,-0.013396,-0.006,0.01309,0.055764,0.004222,0.014237,-0.027948,-0.006881,-0.025244,-0.016839,0.022948,-0.006714,0.006411,-0.015883,-0.021587,0.000371,0.004437,0.008314,0.005508
APO029,0.10927,0.170609,0.006034,-0.101745,0.054164,-0.055499,-0.015276,-0.002308,0.0407,0.074352,0.002436,0.009741,-0.023042,0.000826,-0.037187,-0.030628,0.016298,0.001014,0.004022,-0.015382,-0.012852,0.010263,-0.003204,-0.004217,-0.009101
APO037,0.100164,0.160454,-0.005657,-0.089148,0.047086,-0.044344,-0.00188,0,0.021884,0.068339,0.005846,0.004646,-0.017245,-0.007844,-0.040173,0.001856,0.035856,-0.002154,0.019232,-0.01013,-0.016471,0.007296,-0.002218,-0.00964,-0.018441
APO043,0.09675,0.166547,0.00264,-0.089148,0.0437,-0.036535,-0.00893,-0.000692,0.024952,0.071437,0.015752,0.013938,-0.025124,-0.00578,-0.030537,-0.002519,0.029336,0.00038,0.00264,-0.015382,-0.004742,-0.003215,-0.009244,0.010845,-0.005269
APO044,0.102441,0.165531,0,-0.089794,0.059088,-0.045459,-0.017626,-0.000462,0.035996,0.076175,-0.006333,0.02263,-0.023191,0.005643,-0.039223,-0.028374,0.010431,-0.012289,0.013827,-0.019885,-0.015348,0.006801,-0.006039,0.00241,-0.00455
GLI003,0.117238,0.1635,-0.010182,-0.060401,0.025543,-0.015897,0.00376,-0.005538,0,0.043919,-0.00065,0.005995,-0.009663,0,-0.019272,-0.019093,-0.004172,0.004181,0.00905,-0.012506,-0.00574,0.00779,-0.004067,0.001566,-0.002874
HGC001,0.111547,0.167562,-0.020365,-0.087856,0.022773,-0.042112,0.00752,-0.003,0.013294,0.057951,0.011042,0.003147,-0.019177,-0.004954,-0.027823,-0.001856,0.029076,0.000253,0.009553,-0.006003,-0.008235,0.009027,-0.004807,-0.002169,0.000359
HGC002,0.117238,0.184826,-0.013576,-0.086241,0.025235,-0.039881,-0.000235,0.002538,0.013703,0.054124,-0.000487,0.010041,-0.023637,-0.00234,-0.03203,-0.002254,0.031683,0.012035,0.016089,-0.015007,0.003494,-0.00136,-0.010969,-0.001566,0.002634
HGC003,0.121791,0.171624,-0.024513,-0.094316,0.019388,-0.03263,-0.00094,-0.01523,0.011658,0.069979,0.002923,0.015586,-0.023786,-0.001651,-0.025787,-0.014585,0.011995,0.000253,0.008547,-0.017258,-0.011979,-0.003339,-0.003204,0.005302,-0.001317
HGC005,0.106994,0.166547,-0.019233,-0.09367,0.028313,-0.038766,-0.014101,-0.007846,0.015544,0.063965,0.012991,0.005845,-0.022894,-0.001651,-0.017101,-0.016441,0.013038,0.002407,0.005908,-0.003126,-0.015722,0.011005,0.005669,0.000482,-0.021914
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XAN051,0.111547,0.141159,0.013953,-0.02907,0.021542,-0.018407,-0.003995,0.004384,0.001636,0.031162,0.000162,0.012439,-0.009366,-0.002615,-0.00665,-0.006762,0.010561,-0.00114,-0.001508,-0.015883,-0.004243,-0.000742,-0.004807,-0.001687,-0.002155
XAN053,0.102441,0.161469,-0.013199,-0.068153,0.033545,-0.034025,-0.011045,-0.001385,0.007567,0.056311,-0.001624,0.01139,-0.012339,-0.004542,-0.029858,0.000796,0.013299,0.012922,0.018729,-0.01063,-0.012228,0.007543,-0.00493,0.001325,-0.003473
 
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