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Thread: Genetic shift in Crete linked to the Mycenaean conquest

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    Genetic shift in Crete linked to the Mycenaean conquest

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTqGXZksFZw&t=2065s
    Extremely interesting. The part about the genetic shift in Crete starts at around 33 minute mark

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    I'm not inclined to give very much weight to someone, a supposed scientist, no less, who calls steppe people "Europeans", and moreover thinks there were EAST EUROPEAN people coming into Greece in the 2nd millenium BC.

    An idiot, and a racist one at that.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Leopoldo Leone View Post
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTqGXZksFZw&t=2065s
    Extremely interesting. The part about the genetic shift in Crete starts at around 33 minute mark
    It seems that there is a difference with mainland Greece where Lazaridis says very minor steppe, suggesting a language change through trade.


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    I am just watching it now.

    Did I just hear him say that they have undergrads authoring papers with Nick Patterson, and David Reich?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I'm not inclined to give very much weight to someone, a supposed scientist, no less, who calls steppe people "Europeans", and moreover thinks there were EAST EUROPEAN people coming into Greece in the 2nd millenium BC.

    An idiot, and a racist one at that.
    Bad terminology indeed. Apparently "Eastern Europeans" are 40% CHG and 60% EHG...

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    The lecture seems to re-affirm that once Steppe ancestry came to Minoan/early Bronze age Greeks, they became situated over modern South Italians on the PCA plot.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    The lecture seems to re-affirm that once Steppe ancestry came to Minoan/early Bronze age Greeks, they became situated over modern South Italians on the PCA plot.

    What is interesting is the positions of the low steppe Mycenaean samples: they range precisely from Minoans to those three samples thought to be western Anatolians, and the rest are pulled towards the "heavy steppe" mycenaean center, which seems to overlap modern south Italians. This is interesting because there has been speculation about the source of the extra CHG/iran_N in south east Europe, and some extra CHG compared to Minoans seems to have been around for quite some time so there is no need to postulate massive replacement from Anatolia during the late IA to account for it...

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    Crete was overrun by the myceneans and in turn the myceneans where overrun by the Dorians
    All one needs is to fit the time frame for these events
    Fathers mtdna ...... T2b17
    Grandfather paternal mtdna ... T1a1e
    Sons mtdna ...... K1a4p
    Mothers line ..... R1b-S8172
    Grandmother paternal side ... I1-CTS6397
    Wife paternal line ..... R1a-PF6155

    "Fear profits man, nothing"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Leopoldo Leone View Post
    What is interesting is the positions of the low steppe Mycenaean samples: they range precisely from Minoans to those three samples thought to be western Anatolians, and the rest are pulled towards the "heavy steppe" mycenaean center, which seems to overlap modern south Italians. This is interesting because there has been speculation about the source of the extra CHG/iran_N in south east Europe, and some extra CHG compared to Minoans seems to have been around for quite some time so there is no need to postulate massive replacement from Anatolia during the late IA to account for it...
    Minoans/EBA Greece make for a very good candidate for elevated levels of CHG in South Eastern Europe (including Southern Italy/Sicily)

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    If the "heavy steppe" Mycenaeans overlap modern South Italians "heavy" is not so "heavy".

    This is the problem with so many scientists; they have no freaking ability to use language to express what the mathematics shows.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    If the "heavy steppe" Mycenaeans overlap modern South Italians "heavy" is not so "heavy".

    This is the problem with so many scientists; they have no freaking ability to use language to express what the mathematics shows.
    Heavy is in reference to the range Mycenaeans display: it ranged between 20-0% (safe some outliers that had 30% as the armenoi sample), so to refer to those samples that are skewed towards the end point (15-20% steppe) I use the expression "heavy steppe", though compared to, say, a central European 20% isn't "heavy" at all. The expression is mine and isn't what I heard from a scientist, I acknowledge it might be not the best terminology but I'll use whatever terminology you want to use here, since what I care about is to refer to concepts.

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    I wouldn't have written the post in that manner had I known it was your expression. The video left a bad taste in my mouth as concerns the expressions used by the so called scientist. My apologies.

    However, I do think it's important to define one's terms. IF the "heaviest" steppe admixture is 20%, the Mycenaeans had very minor steppe, imo. They were NOT, as "he who shall not be named" claimed a week before the first paper came out, Corded Ware people dropped into Greece! :)

    The same applies, for instance, to the Latins and Etruscans. They were EEF heavy peoples, with only about 25% steppe, which is about what I have, fwiw. The Etruscans, for example, were not recent arrivals from Anatolia in the first millennium B.C. but they were also not Northern European like.

    BTW, have the people at anthrogenica apologized yet for being abysmally wrong about the Etruscans?

    I'm afraid they should prepare for another upset. It did seem to me too that Reich said something which could be interpreted to mean that "eastern" ancestry appeared in Italy in the Bronze Age, which I've been claiming for more than 10 years and which they've been denying for that long if not more.

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    The "Heavy Steppe" Mycenaeans are like N. Italians and Spanish.
    People that were majority Yamnaya in the northern half of Europe, that came to the south and acquired and extra half of local(mostly EEF) ancestry.
    This is a typical S. European.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mmiikkii View Post
    The "Heavy Steppe" Mycenaeans are like N. Italians and Spanish.
    People that were majority Yamnaya in the northern half of Europe, that came to the south and acquired and extra half of local(mostly EEF) ancestry.
    This is a typical S. European.
    There has never been a Mycenaean that has plotted with Spanish...


    Logkos 4 a single sample from the MBA that is an outlier from outside of the Mycenaean homeland that plots between Northern Greece, and Northern Italy. Logkos 2 from the MBA with even less steppe plots between Tuscans and Albanians.


    EEF in Mycenaeans? That's not correct. Their southern ancestry is either Greece_N/EBA or Minoan. Which means they have CHG, and not WHG.


    You know, I have been patient with you, but if you are going to make ignorant and outlandish statements, I am going to crack down on you. I'm starting to wonder if you are a t-roll even.


    T-roll or not, we have banned members for incessant disruptive statements that are clearly just pulled out of their backside. Read the papers, if you don't know something, ask as question. But do not make statements that are framed as fact, which are clearly not.

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    Jovialis, is this PCA based on G25 or on Dodecad? Because in another PCA I saw, wich I believe was based on Dodecad, the Armenoi sample is a bit more north shifted than the average central Italian cluster, while in this one seems a bit more south shifted

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    There has never been a Mycenaean that has plotted with Spanish...
    I said they're Spanish in equivalence.
    The "heavy Steppe" is like the mixed Yamnaya/EEF of Spain/Italy.

    Mycenaean have less Yamnaya because Greece is shifted to EEF and CHG in comparison with the Western Mediterranean.
    But a "heavy Steppe" is basically like the average Bronze Age Spaniard, or the average Etruscan, again, with less Yamnaya most likely.

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    ^^What don't you get? Did you look at the posted plot?

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    @Mmiikkii

    No.

    Again, Mycenaeans are not EEF as part of their southern ancestry. EEF is Anatolian_N + WHG
    Minoans and Greece_N are Anatolian_N + CHG. This is undisputable.

    Furthermore, from my recollection, Iberians were Basque-like in the time that the Etruscans existed, that is the IA. Iberians were pulled south to their current position after the Roman and Medieval period.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Francesco View Post
    Jovialis, is this PCA based on G25 or on Dodecad? Because in another PCA I saw, wich I believe was based on Dodecad, the Armenoi sample is a bit more north shifted than the average central Italian cluster, while in this one seems a bit more south shifted
    Dodecad, with modern populations as a source, and only the ancient samples projected.

    I never work with G25.

    Armenoi_Crete is very low-resolution, so I wouldn't give it too much credence.

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    I'm not familiar with how PCA are made, so I don't understant the variations we often get from one to another. Pax tried to explained it to me in another thread, but I couldn't completely grasp it, so be patient if my questions seem somewhat stupid. Anyway, that's the PCA I was referring to, in wich Crete Armenoi perfeclty fall within a central italian cluster. In any case, it's not a big deal.

    On a side note, It would be interesting to see the PCA from post n.15 with the iron age greek samples from Himera and contemporary sicilian samples.

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    ^^that PCA is made with K13 (or 15 I forget) in MSpaint. Unfortunately that's not a true PCA because the projection is supposed to move with new variations made to the overall PCA. However that one stays in a fixed position.

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    First of all, the Greek sources roughly say there were 2 'native' populations, the Eteocretans and the Kudonians, some Greek or Greek-related populations that came later from the Greek mainland: the Achaeans, the Dorians and the Pelasgians and in some sources another 'barbarian' population that came after the Greeks.

    He talks about a genetic change after 1600 BC. The impression someone gets is that it affected the whole island but mainland shifting samples are only from the north, around Chania where Kudonians are usually placed (so in a region where the population could have been non-'Minoan' proper early on and from around Heraklion. (There the more northern settlers could really have been Greek-proper)

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    Quote Originally Posted by A. Papadimitriou View Post
    First of all, the Greek sources roughly say there were 2 'native' populations, the Eteocretans and the Kudonians, some Greek or Greek-related populations that came later from the Greek mainland: the Achaeans, the Dorians and the Pelasgians and in some sources another 'barbarian' population that came after the Greeks.

    He talks about a genetic change after 1600 BC. The impression someone gets is that it affected the whole island but mainland shifting samples are only from the north, around Chania where Kudonians are usually placed (so in a region where the population could have been non-'Minoan' proper early on and from around Heraklion. (There the more northern settlers could really have been Greek-proper)

    you also have the cretans that escaped Mycenean invasion and occupation became the philistines in the levant

    https://greekreporter.com/2022/05/18/philistines-greek/

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