Societal Duty to have Children Attitude by Country

[Jovialis]

I found this on Razib Khan's twitter feed:

I only have one thus far. Perhaps we may have another one day.

But I do appreciate Winston Churchill's attitude towards having three children; two to replace yourselves, and one to add to the population. However, I've always been a proponent of quality over quantity.

Personally, I believe I have a duty to procreate, but to each is own. It is a very personal choice, and should not be pressured or imposed on people.

 

[firetown]

"towards society"
How do they define society?
The world?
Their country?
Their religious group?

 

[Jovialis]

Not sure, but there seems to be a correlation with more religious countries. Which makes sense since in the Abrahamic religions God commands man to "Be fruitful and multiply".

But for me it is was not a religious decision, since I'm what I guess you could call agnostic.

 

[Stuvanè]

For sure in the past in some societies (including the Italian one), certain religious precepts had their weight, even if I have the impression that they ultimately masked economic goals (basically in the humblest social strata, having labour power).
I don't believe that right now - at least in Italy - one can speak of a social 'duty', but of an interested recommendation that insists on the need to be able to make what we call the state function economically, yes, and in particular the objective is to have, without too many turns of phrase, new future generations of workers who can pay pensions and in general welfare to those who will stop working in the coming years.


But being a recommendation that in fact bypasses personal parental aspirations, reducing everything to an economic benefit of the community, and frequently coming from politicians and apparatuses of power that for decades have been disinterested in Italy's demographic decline (and are often the same ones who now incoherently advocate 'happy degrowth' for ecological and/or environmental sustainability reasons), the appeal of such a request is very modest and the invitation is rightly returned to sender.


Apart from what are objective social phenomena of disengagement from family goals, whether due to immaturity or objective economic limitations (their boundary is less clear-cut than one might expect), I'm more inclined to believe that the group's expectation on one of its members to have children lately lies in the fact that childbearing has now become a status symbol, even before the genuine and individual interest in having offspring: if you can afford numerous offspring to show off you belong to a social stratum that counts. Which is a fact: here it is mainly big businessmen and industrialists, politicians, footballers and actors who have more than one child.
Paradoxically, the concept of the proletariat has almost been overturned.

 

[Angela]

With the creation of the birth control pill the state (and men) lost the ability to coerce women into having children.

From my experience women naturally want to have children, and not just the women of my generation, but the children of my daughter's generation as well. Hormones can destroy all your best laid plans, and I say this as a woman who wanted to play pirates and explorers as a child, not "house" with baby dolls. When it hits, and hit it does, "Baby fever", even when one has had one or two, is very real. When you pick up a six month old infant and it snuggles next to your breast, the hormones start to pump out. I just had to resist it, not for financial considerations, but because doing it the way I did it required all my reserves of energy, and more importantly, patience. That would have been true whether or not I was working full time, although I was, in fact. My husband never much cared whether we had children or not. He agreed more for me, I think, that is until our son was born. He started wanting a second when our son was barely a year old. We sensibly waited a few years. Had we lived in a different time he would have wanted a house full, but then of course he wouldn't have to bear and birth and nurse them, and stay home with them all day.

If the state wishes to encourage larger families they could start by providing free child care, perhaps at the place of work itself, and a stipend per child.

However, my suspicion is that the change would be modest. Most women with any sense would prefer to have a man with a commitment to both her and their children, and many young men would prefer to have the sex with no commitment and with lots of disposable income for their toys. Imo modern society's perpetual adolescent male seems to be a very real phenomenon. By the time a woman finds a man with whom to have children she's in her 30s and her child-bearing years are limited. That's true for lots of "career-women" as well. They've been sold a bill of goods that you can have it all, and then they discover that it takes until you're at least thirty to establish yourself in a career, and by that point if you don't have a committed man in your life, having a child is almost an impossibility, and even if you do, your ability to get pregnant is really hampered,which is part of the reason why infertility treatments are such a lucrative business. A lot of those good eggs are just gone.

As for Italy and apparently some other countries in Europe, the one child thing seems bizarre to most Americans. There are three child families and two child families, but I don't think I know any families who could have children who have only one. It's considered bad for the child for numerous reasons, and I agree with that.

 

[real expert]

Actually, when it comes to thoughts, being fertile is advantageous. Having children—offspring that carry your genes into the next generation—is a natural privilege. In the animal kingdom, for instance, animals will fight to the death for mating rights. In a world so far removed from nature and disconnected from natural instincts, we think being fertile and having children is a burden, a killjoy, and not a privilege. Moreover, the infantilization of society based on a liberal, liquid, individualistic approach to life produces a rejection of adulthood and taking responsibility. There are so many options that people become exhausted and lost in their desire to try and experience everything.

​

Furthermore, it's true that modern women are not forced or obligated to have children anymore to define their value. However, there is social and cultural pressure on women to remain childless and postpone having children. Generations of feminists have convinced women that marriage and motherhood are oppressive. Thus, the abolition of both is the primary goal. Women who saw their fulfillment in having children and being stay-at-home moms and good housewives were shamed and constantly attacked as backwards and traitors to the women's rights movement by feminists, the media, and the establishment. As a result, many women have been conditioned to see self-actualization not in motherhood and raising productive children but primarily in working and making a career. The point is that women's maternal instincts have been systemically weakened as a result of liberal progressive indoctrination. In addition, single, childless career women were being put on a pedestal. So it's not surprising that females in their 30s in Germany, the United Kingdom, or even once-child-welcoming Catholic Italy or Spain remain childless. The reality is that most humans naturally desire to reproduce and have children, but the majority do not in Western society because being a mother or father is not valued. The odd thing is that many women in their prime, when they are fertile and young, do not want to have children until they are far too old. The proportion of late-term mothers is significantly increasing. For example, celebrities who either never wanted children or openly mocked motherhood and babies are now having children in their 50s or older by force. They, of course, hire a nanny, who looks after the baby at night and is in charge of feeding and changing diapers. Because of this desire to have it all, there is a growing desire to become a mother after menopause with the help of in vitro fertilization or a paid surrogate mother.
In my opinion, individuals who are devoid of natural affection for children, who are too selfish, too self-absorbed, messed up, or dysfunctional, should refrain from having children. There are also some who are just too cowardly or afraid of having kids, for various reasons. Plus, some humans don't deserve to have any children because they harm, neglect, and abuse them.

 

[Jovialis]

Actually, when it comes to thoughts, being fertile is advantageous. Having children—offspring that carry your genes into the next generation—is a natural privilege. In the animal kingdom, for instance, animals will fight to the death for mating rights. In a world so far removed from nature and disconnected from natural instincts, we think being fertile and having children is a burden, a killjoy, and not a privilege. Moreover, the infantilization of society based on a liberal, liquid, individualistic approach to life produces a rejection of adulthood and taking responsibility. There are so many options that people become exhausted and lost in their desire to try and experience everything.

Raising a child is probably the hardest task I've undertaken in my life. Considering the fact that we are very proactive in providing what our child needs to be conducive to their development. Not to mention tending to the child as an infant, with regard to sleep regressions, gas problems, making sure they don't eat objects that can kill them, and taking care of them while they are sick. I recall about 60% of academic success has to do with genes (nature), but the other 40% (Nurture) is a very crucial factor. Both me an my wife work, so we have to send our child to daycare. This is a very expensive cost, because we wanted to have access to video cameras, and quality care. I find the daycare to have really paid off, because they are learning a lot. I am very proud of the fact that our child is at the top of the class, and has completed over 90% of developmental milestones, while the norm is only 50% at this point.

There's a saying one is one, but two is twenty. We are purposefully putting off a potential second child because along with work, providing this level of support will be very difficult when our current child is only a toddler.

I like to think we are raising our child in the K selection strategy.

There's plenty of people who have a ton of children, (r-selection strategy), have little parental investment into raising children.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R/K_selection_theory

 

[firetown]

Actually, when it comes to thoughts, being fertile is advantageous. Having children—offspring that carry your genes into the next generation—is a natural privilege. In the animal kingdom, for instance, animals will fight to the death for mating rights. In a world so far removed from nature and disconnected from natural instincts, we think being fertile and having children is a burden, a killjoy, and not a privilege. Moreover, the infantilization of society based on a liberal, liquid, individualistic approach to life produces a rejection of adulthood and taking responsibility. There are so many options that people become exhausted and lost in their desire to try and experience everything.

​

Furthermore, it's true that modern women are not forced or obligated to have children anymore to define their value. However, there is social and cultural pressure on women to remain childless and postpone having children. Generations of feminists have convinced women that marriage and motherhood are oppressive. Thus, the abolition of both is the primary goal. Women who saw their fulfillment in having children and being stay-at-home moms and good housewives were shamed and constantly attacked as backwards and traitors to the women's rights movement by feminists, the media, and the establishment. As a result, many women have been conditioned to see self-actualization not in motherhood and raising productive children but primarily in working and making a career. The point is that women's maternal instincts have been systemically weakened as a result of liberal progressive indoctrination. In addition, single, childless career women were being put on a pedestal. So it's not surprising that females in their 30s in Germany, the United Kingdom, or even once-child-welcoming Catholic Italy or Spain remain childless. The reality is that most humans naturally desire to reproduce and have children, but the majority do not in Western society because being a mother or father is not valued. The odd thing is that many women in their prime, when they are fertile and young, do not want to have children until they are far too old. The proportion of late-term mothers is significantly increasing. For example, celebrities who either never wanted children or openly mocked motherhood and babies are now having children in their 50s or older by force. They, of course, hire a nanny, who looks after the baby at night and is in charge of feeding and changing diapers. Because of this desire to have it all, there is a growing desire to become a mother after menopause with the help of in vitro fertilization or a paid surrogate mother.
In my opinion, individuals who are devoid of natural affection for children, who are too selfish, too self-absorbed, messed up, or dysfunctional, should refrain from having children. There are also some who are just too cowardly or afraid of having kids, for various reasons. Plus, some humans don't deserve to have any children because they harm, neglect, and abuse them.

Those allowing "society" to discourage them from having children are better off not having children, because they would place society's wishes above the needs of their children.

 

[Angela]

I can't imagine walking around thinking that my genes are so awesome that it's just my duty to the future of humanity to pass them on.

Maybe that's what those fertility doctors who substituted their sperm for that of the husband or the couple's choice from a sperm bank thought they were doing?

God save us all from the hubris of men.

It doesn't work, btw. All those supposed ubermensch the Lebensborn centers were supposed to turn out turned out to be very, well, "average". Not a Nobel Laureate scientist or master of industry, or other world renowned figure among them, to the best of my knowledge.

 

[Jovialis]

^^"Our Father" on Netflix is really an incredible documentary. I really feel bad for those people who discovered their sprem was replaced with that of the fertility doctor. What a crushing revelation.

 

[Dalmat]

^^"Our Father" on Netflix is really an incredible documentary. I really feel bad for those people who discovered their sprem was replaced with that of the fertility doctor. What a crushing revelation.

That's borderline rape, I am not sure how would i react, I would probably have murder in mind

 

[Vallicanus]

I found this on Razib Khan's twitter feed:

I only have one thus far. Perhaps we may have another one day.

But I do appreciate Winston Churchill's attitude towards having three children; two to replace yourselves, and one to add to the population. However, I've always been a proponent of quality over quantity.

Personally, I believe I have a duty to procreate, but to each is own. It is a very personal choice, and should not be pressured or imposed on people.

I'm afraid Italy has one of the lowest birthrates on Earth and Spain, Greece and Germany are not much better.

 

[Jovialis]

I'm afraid Italy has one of the lowest birthrates on Earth and Spain, Greece and Germany are not much better.

Indeed, I think Italy is 2nd behind Japan for lowest birth-rates.

However Japan and South Korea are smart for robotizing itself to meet the demands for labor in the future. Rather than import cheap labor from the 3rd world. I saw Italy had banned ChatGPT. So expecting them to embrace robotizing Italy, is like holding on to a broken branch. Technophobia is going to hobble countries that do not seize this very important moment in time.

 

[Vallicanus]

Indeed, I think Italy is 2nd behind Japan for lowest birth-rates.
However Japan and South Korea are smart for robotizing itself to meet the demands for labor in the future. Rather than import cheap labor from the 3rd world. I saw Italy had banned ChatGPT. So expecting them to embrace robotizing Italy, is like holding on to a broken branch. Technophobia is going to hobble countries that do not seize this very important moment in time.

Unfortunately, Italy is not embracing the digital age.

 

[Poxy]

Indeed, I think Italy is 2nd behind Japan for lowest birth-rates.
However Japan and South Korea are smart for robotizing itself to meet the demands for labor in the future. Rather than import cheap labor from the 3rd world. I saw Italy had banned ChatGPT. So expecting them to embrace robotizing Italy, is like holding on to a broken branch. Technophobia is going to hobble countries that do not seize this very important moment in time.

I think at least Italy has a future. Last year, South Korea's total fertility rate was 0.78. Obviously the most unusual figure in the world.

 

[firetown]

I think at least Italy has a future. Last year, South Korea's total fertility rate was 0.78. Obviously the most unusual figure in the world.

Strangely, Puerto Rico is number 2 lowest with 1%. That I didn't expect. Tied with Hong Kong.
https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/total-fertility-rate

There are a lot of reasons people decide not to have a baby. Young Koreans cite as obstacles the high cost of housing in greater Seoul (home to roughly half the country’s 52 million citizens), the expense of raising a child in a hypercompetitive academic culture, and grueling workplace norms that are inhospitable to family life, especially for women, who are still expected to do the bulk of housework and child care. But these explanations miss a more basic dynamic: the deterioration in relations between women and men—what the Korean media call a “gender war.”

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/a...ns cite as obstacles,are still expected to do

 

[real expert]

What about re-embracing having children and a family, as well as re-establishing the proper priorities and values? It's unfortunate that children and family life are undervalued throughout Europe. Not only in Italy but also in Germany, the birthrate has been significantly lower than the replacement rate for many years.
Corncering Japan:

Cultural customs in Japan and Korea are fading because everyone is too preoccupied with their soulless, emotionless occupations and pursuit of soulless material items to ever think about, consider, or
practice them due to the workaholic culture. The overwork lifestyle is so rampant there that people have no time and energy for marriage or intimacy, let alone having kids. And, to be honest, I'm surprised that Italians here aren't saddened by the threat of demographic collapse in Italy. Besides, Korea and Japan are not confronted with the same economic and migratory issues as Italy. Here's the deal: Today, unintegrated immigrants, refugees, and others have taken over countless Italian cities. Furthermore, many charming and idyllic Italian villages are dying since 90% of their population is about to die away. These towns are all hidden, forgotten gems. The point is, even if AI is useful and a benign version exists, the underlying socioeconomic issues that lead to the low birthrate, loss of culture, and traditional values in the first place would persist.

 

[Angela]

I find it extremely sad that so many hamlets and villages in my valley will soon be abandoned, but I understand the reasons why Italy has been for decades and decades, from right after the war, really, a one child country, as I see why living in those hamlets is completely infeasible.

The other problem related to fertility, which I see or hear about every day here in the U.S. is that the wrong people are having children.

All of that said, I had two, and that was plenty. I didn't have the nerves or patience to mother four children, or even three, in the modern world with all its pitfalls, and I did have a career I cared about. Then, now that they're grown-up I sometimes wonder whether I should have brought children into this world at all. I love them dearly, and they me, but the world is falling apart in front of my eyes. It was difficult enough trying to shield them from the toxicity of modern society, and I wasn't completely successful. If they have children, it will be impossible for them.

 

[firetown]

What about re-embracing having children and a family, as well as re-establishing the proper priorities and values? It's unfortunate that children and family life are undervalued throughout Europe. Not only in Italy but also in Germany, the birthrate has been significantly lower than the replacement rate for many years.
Corncering Japan:

Cultural customs in Japan and Korea are fading because everyone is too preoccupied with their soulless, emotionless occupations and pursuit of soulless material items to ever think about, consider, or
practice them due to the workaholic culture. The overwork lifestyle is so rampant there that people have no time and energy for marriage or intimacy, let alone having kids. And, to be honest, I'm surprised that Italians here aren't saddened by the threat of demographic collapse in Italy. Besides, Korea and Japan are not confronted with the same economic and migratory issues as Italy. Here's the deal: Today, unintegrated immigrants, refugees, and others have taken over countless Italian cities. Furthermore, many charming and idyllic Italian villages are dying since 90% of their population is about to die away. These towns are all hidden, forgotten gems. The point is, even if AI is useful and a benign version exists, the underlying socioeconomic issues that lead to the low birthrate, loss of culture, and traditional values in the first place would persist.

What else do Korea, Japan and Germany have in common? How about: not very child friendly. Far too many rules, legal and societal (unwritten). Why would anyone feel that they should have children if unsure they will be happy. The headache of "adjusting" your own child away from their true nature and knowing internally what you are doing to them almost makes me think that those deciding not to be parents may be "selfish", but may also be the exact opposite looking away from values like you call it, but towards how the child would feel growing up. Too many people have children for selfish reasons. They want an heir to be proud of or, in many countries, they feel like the more children they have, the better those kids will take care of them financially one day.

As for Italy: I am not sure, but pessimism towards the future comes to mind.

 

[firetown]

Indeed, I think Italy is 2nd behind Japan for lowest birth-rates.
However Japan and South Korea are smart for robotizing itself to meet the demands for labor in the future. Rather than import cheap labor from the 3rd world. I saw Italy had banned ChatGPT. So expecting them to embrace robotizing Italy, is like holding on to a broken branch. Technophobia is going to hobble countries that do not seize this very important moment in time.

From what I understand, ChatGPT is expected to be unbanned with a version more satisfactory to the Italian government in terms of data breach prevention and such.