How much genetic impact did the Italic migration have on the local population?

Pax Augusta said:
An answer to the first question can be given, based on genetic data, only on Etruscans and Latins (although for the latter there are still far too few samples).

In the case of the Etruscans (and perhaps also of the Latins), the first individuals who brought Steppe admixture in the Bronze Age came most likely from the Bell Beaker culture of central Europe and they gradually merged with the populations already living in Italy from at least the Chalcolithic (those composed of WHG and EEF, to be clear).

Yes, of course, the fact that they show genetic similarities with Iron Age populations could mean that they are direct ancestors of Iron Age populations.

It is still too complicated to have an idea about the overall migration model. In 2021, several genetic studies on various populations in pre-Roman Italy were announced, but they have not yet been published. We have to wait, although this delay is not understandable.





Hi Moesan, It's not my idea, I always try to rely on what I read in studies, not push my own ideas.

According to some linguists, it cannot be ruled out that the Latin-Faliscan and Oscan-Umbrian languages split outside Italy, and a linguistic convergence is due to successive contacts in the Italian Peninsula. I'll give you a more detailed answer tomorrow.
Click to expand...

Indeed, for Etruscans (and perhaps Latins) it is also worth noting that the Chalcolithic in central Italy also shows a WHG resurgence particularly. I'm interested to see how this impacted other parts of the peninsula.
 
Jovialis said:
Indeed, for Etruscans (and perhaps Latins) it is also worth noting that the Chalcolithic in central Italy also shows a WHG resurgence particularly. I'm interested to see how this impacted other parts of the peninsula.
Click to expand...

Wonder if this is somewhat linked to the diffusion of the Chassey culture in north-western Italy from France during the late Neolithic.
 
Jovialis said:
Indeed, for Etruscans (and perhaps Latins) it is also worth noting that the Chalcolithic in central Italy also shows a WHG resurgence particularly. I'm interested to see how this impacted other parts of the peninsula.
Click to expand...
Double post
 
Pax Augusta said:
An answer to the first question can be given, based on genetic data, only on Etruscans and Latins (although for the latter there are still far too few samples).

In the case of the Etruscans (and perhaps also of the Latins), the first individuals who brought Steppe admixture in the Bronze Age came most likely from the Bell Beaker culture of central Europe and they gradually merged with the populations already living in Italy from at least the Chalcolithic (those composed of WHG and EEF, to be clear).

Yes, of course, the fact that they show genetic similarities with Iron Age populations could mean that they are direct ancestors of Iron Age populations.

It is still too complicated to have an idea about the overall migration model. In 2021, several genetic studies on various populations in pre-Roman Italy were announced, but they have not yet been published. We have to wait, although this delay is not understandable.





Hi Moesan, It's not my idea, I always try to rely on what I read in studies, not push my own ideas.

According to some linguists, it cannot be ruled out that the Latin-Faliscan and Oscan-Umbrian languages split outside Italy, and a linguistic convergence is due to successive contacts in the Italian Peninsula. I'll give you a more detailed answer tomorrow.
Click to expand...

IIRC .............only Latin and Venetic belong to the Faliscan group ............and the other to the Umbri Group
 
I copy here an Eurogene guest's post which doesn't concern directly this very topic but which concerns a time window in Northern Italy contemporeanous to the Etruscans and Italics of many kinds, I thik.

Thanks to Eurogenes:
Suevi said...
The CELTUDALPS project: a multifaceted perspective on Late Iron Age territorial mobility and genetic variation in Northern Italy and Switzerland

The steady increase of biogeochemical and biomolecular data is refining traditional anthropological and archaeological hypotheses about the genetic history and territorial mobility patterns of European human groups during the Late Iron Age. Compared with other geographic areas, however, only few data are yet available for those “Celtic” groups occupying the Northern Italian and Swiss territories during this period. Even fewer are collaborative research projects trying to compare these different types of information for these geographic areas. The resulting knowledge gap is especially relevant given the archaeologically and historically documented networks (cultural, commercial, and migratory) between the two sides of the Alps in this period.
With CELTUDALPS we aim to address these issues by means of a multidisciplinary analysis of a large (ca. 300) individuals representing La Tène cultural groups inhabiting modern Switzerland and Northern Italy between the 4th -1st centuries BCE. By applying a range of methods including the analysis of ancient DNA and isotopic (δ15N, δ13C, δ34S, δ18O, 87Sr/86Sr) data, and the quantitative analysis of funerary patterns, CELTUDALPS aims to: (a) estimate the differences and similarities in territorial mobility between these groups; (b) reconstruct their genetic history and variation; (c) explore the possible links between mobility, kinship patterns, and social organization in each area. Here, we present the theoretical background and research design of the project, illustrate the state of the art of the project with examples selected from our most recent results, and discuss the planned next steps of our research.

Genetic history of Late Iron Age (4th – 1st century BCE) human groups from both sides of the Alps

During the Late Iron Age (La Tène, 4th-1st centuries BCE), various human groups sharing cultural elements, commonly referred to as "Celts", were involved in migration processes and settled in the Italian Peninsula after crossing the Alps. The current knowledge of these people is largely drawn from osteological, isotopic, archaeological, and historical evidence. However, the genetic history of these groups from both north and south of the Alps remains unexplored.
This paleogenomic study aims to analyze if the cultural similarity of these people is reflected in their genomic makeup. Moreover, it intends to study the genetic relationships between different La Tène groups from north and south of the Alps, and other ancient and present-day populations from Europe.
We performed molecular analyses (shotgun and nuclear capture data – approx. 1.3 mio SNPs) on 194 individuals from 13 Swiss and North Italian Late Iron Age archaeological contexts. Ancient DNA data allows to determine the genetic sex in 119 individuals, comprising 76 XX and 43 XY, including 52 subadults. With the additional support of mitochondrial DNA data, we detected genetic relatedness among three individual pairs within two different Swiss archeological sites, and one case in the North-Italian site of Seminario Vescovile.
Comparative analyses show a genetic similarity between the ancient Swiss and Italian individuals. Additionally, their genomic diversity overlaps with that of especially western and south-western European present-day populations. However, the results suggest a genetic discontinuity between Late Iron Age individuals from Northern Italy and present-day populations from the same geographic area. On the other hand, the comparison with published data infers a stronger genetic affinity among European Iron Age groups.
March 1, 2023 at 11:49 PM
 
Very interesting, thank you, expecially the part on the genetical discontinuity between cisalpine celts and modern north Italians. If I remember correctly, Polybious says that in its time celts were already almost completely disappeared from northern Italy, following the Roman conquest and colonization of the area. I always thought it was some sort of exaggeration of the Greek historian, but who knows. After all, modern North Italian are pretty similar to the iron age italic samples, so, maybe, the roman colonization was indeed pretty intrusive.
I want to wait to draw solid conclusions, though.
 
Francesco said:
Very interesting, thank you, expecially the part on the genetical discontinuity between cisalpine celts and modern north Italians. If I remember correctly, Polybious says that in its time celts were already almost completely disappeared from northern Italy, following the Roman conquest and colonization of the area. I always thought it was some sort of exaggeration of the Greek historian, but who knows. After all, modern North Italian are pretty similar to the iron age italic samples, so, maybe, the roman colonization was indeed pretty intrusive.
I want to wait to draw solid conclusions, though.
Click to expand...

he is wrong ...rome did not conquer the tribes in the alps until 15 BC .....................rome conquered Gaul before they went into the alps
 
torzio said:
he is wrong ...rome did not conquer the tribes in the alps until 15 BC .....................rome conquered Gaul before they went into the alps
Click to expand...

Polybious was surely talking about the padanian plain, the most popolous region of Northern Italy, not about the Alps.
 
Francesco said:
Very interesting, thank you, expecially the part on the genetical discontinuity between cisalpine celts and modern north Italians. If I remember correctly, Polybious says that in its time celts were already almost completely disappeared from northern Italy, following the Roman conquest and colonization of the area. I always thought it was some sort of exaggeration of the Greek historian, but who knows. After all, modern North Italian are pretty similar to the iron age italic samples, so, maybe, the roman colonization was indeed pretty intrusive.
I want to wait to draw solid conclusions, though.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately, very often geneticists show that they are not well trained on the topics they have to deal with. Too often.

It is quite obvious that the genetic legacy of the Celts/Gauls of the 4th century B.C., who came from central Europe, is poor. For archaeology they were never a majority. I imagine that the Celts/Gauls of the 4th century B.C. were more central European on average than southern European (modern northern Italians remain averagely southern European). But there is an older presence of Celts in northern Italy, namely the Golasecca culture (Lepontic inscriptions). It is they who left a deeper legacy, probably.

North Italians are somewhat similar to the Iron age Italic samples, not just pretty similar. In any case, it does not mean in my opinion that there is direct descendancy in the sense of complete continuity. The Post-Roman Empire model, that can be applied to the rest of Italians, also applies to Northern Italians.


Francesco said:
Polybious was surely talking about the padanian plain, the most popolous region of Northern Italy, not about the Alps.
Click to expand...

Graves in the necropolis of Bologna in the Celtic period show that the majority of the population was still of Etruscan origin.

For various reasons, not the least of which was that the Celts/Gauls of the 4th century B.C. preferred to settle more in less urbanized contexts (but also numerically smaller as a population).
 
Pax Augusta said:
Unfortunately, very often geneticists show that they are not well trained on the topics they have to deal with. Too often.
It is quite obvious that the genetic legacy of the Celts/Gauls of the 4th century B.C., who came from central Europe, is poor. For archaeology they were never a majority. I imagine that the Celts/Gauls of the 4th century B.C. were more central European on average than southern European (modern northern Italians remain averagely southern European). But there is an older presence of Celts in northern Italy, namely the Golasecca culture (Lepontic inscriptions). It is they who left a deeper legacy, probably.
North Italians are somewhat similar to the Iron age Italic samples, not just pretty similar. In any case, it does not mean in my opinion that there is direct descendancy in the sense of complete continuity. The Post-Roman Empire model, that can be applied to the rest of Italians, also applies to Northern Italians.
Graves in the necropolis of Bologna in the Celtic period show that the majority of the population was still of Etruscan origin.
For various reasons, not the least of which was that the Celts/Gauls of the 4th century B.C. preferred to settle more in less urbanized contexts (but also numerically smaller as a population).
Click to expand...
Totally agree. One should also take in to account the ligurian substratum for north-western Italy as well (wich may be seen as some kind of proto-italic or italo-celtic relic in the north of the peninsula, as some linguists have hypothesized).

Regarding Golasecca, I wonder if that culture established itself over some kind of preceding early italic substratum.

I didn't know about the etruscan continuity of Felsina after the celtic invasion, but I always suspected the latter didn't completely obliterated the pre-celtic peoples of northern Italy.
 
Francesco said:
Very interesting, thank you, expecially the part on the genetical discontinuity between cisalpine celts and modern north Italians. If I remember correctly, Polybious says that in its time celts were already almost completely disappeared from northern Italy, following the Roman conquest and colonization of the area. I always thought it was some sort of exaggeration of the Greek historian, but who knows. After all, modern North Italian are pretty similar to the iron age italic samples, so, maybe, the roman colonization was indeed pretty intrusive.
I want to wait to draw solid conclusions, though.
Click to expand...

I regreat I cannot find this survey on the Net, even behind a paywall. Maybe sometime in future?
 
Well, if you're going to go to a Celtic/Gallic burial site, you're pretty sure to find Celts/Gauls. Even worse if you only have samples from one such burial site.

What about the previously Etruscan burial sites, as mentioned by Pax? Or, for that matter, burial sites in Roman "colonies"?

I would suggest reading the following article in academia.edu for an explanation as to why both the extent and the impact of the Celts/Gauls of the 4th century B.C. "invasion" should not be overestimated.

"R_Häussler_De_constructing_Ethnic_Identities_Becoming_Roman_in_Western_Cisalpine_Gaul

Honestly, I've gotten to the point where I have very little respect for the work currently being done by geneticists. If you don't understand the archaeology you are going to misunderstand the genetic results you obtain.
 
I'd remain skeptical considering the source is unverified. Even if the guy is on "the inside" and has access the the samples, there's no certainty he alone is qualified to properly access the samples to a standard that's acceptable.

At any rate, 28% seems to be about as much steppe as modern Northerner have. At least by my calculations:

yQMXfCW.png
 
I remain skeptical as well, as long as we don't have any published study.
Anyway, it's interesting to see some sort of croatian calcolitic affinity in samnites, maybe a hint of the fact that the osco-umbrian branch did intermingled in the northern part of the balkan peninsula after the latino-faliscan branch had already departed and enterd Italy...on the other hand the umbrian sample don't show this affinity, so maybe there must be another reason. Assuming the model itself is reliable, of course.
 
nGSq2jG.png


Here's another version specifically for myself, considering people from my region show an affinity to Neolithic Greek populations:

Code: 
Corded_Ware_LN:I0049_ESP22:Haak_2015,19.22,1.1,0,0,19.45,54.19,0.87,0.15,0,0,3.8,1.22
Corded_Ware_LN:I0103_ESP16:Haak_2015,21.68,0.78,0,0.16,22.14,52.48,0.14,0.22,0,0,2.18,0.21
Corded_Ware_LN:I0104_ESP11:Haak_2015,21,0.27,0,0,20.08,52.51,0,0.52,0,0,4.97,0.64
Corded_Ware_LN:I0106_ESP26:Haak_2015,19.77,2.91,0,0,14.96,55.93,0,4.09,0,0,2.34,0
Greece_N:Klei10:Hofmanova_2016,0,0,2.1,0.17,46.06,0,0,0,14.18,0,35.73,1.76
Greece_N:Pal7:Hofmanova_2016,0,0,4.41,0.01,47.42,0,0,0,13.07,0.67,32.97,1.44
Greece_N:Rev5:Hofmanova_2016,0,0,4.74,0,48.42,0,0,0,12.15,0.13,33.21,1.35
Greece_N:I2937:Lazaridis_2017,0,0,2.55,1.31,44.77,0,0,0,12.74,0,36.69,1.95
Greece_N:I5427:Mathieson_2018,0,0,2.49,0,48.75,0,0,0,14.27,0,33.81,0.67
Greece_N:I2318:Mathieson_2018,0,0,3.07,0,44.19,0,0,0,13.34,0,39.27,0.13
Greece_N:I3708:Mathieson_2018,0,0.11,4.14,0,44.52,0,0,0.08,15.81,0,35.15,0.18
Greece_N:I3709:Mathieson_2018,0,0,2.84,0.05,41.04,0,0,0,13.53,0,41.5,1.04
Greece_N:I3920:Mathieson_2018,0.45,0,4.53,0.27,35.93,1.27,0,0,15.22,0,41.57,0.76
Ganj_Dareh_Iran_N:I1290:Lazaridis_2016,62.26,0,0,0,0,0,8.22,0,5.92,0,19.16,4.44
Ganj_Dareh_Iran_N:I1944:Lazaridis_2016,74.85,0,0,0,0,0,0,0.67,3.48,4.28,16.72,0
Ganj_Dareh_Iran_N:I1945:Lazaridis_2016,64.46,0,0,0,0,0.49,7.48,1.18,3.59,0,21.22,1.57
Ganj_Dareh_Iran_N:I1949:Lazaridis_2016,62.79,0,0,0,0,0,8.19,3.29,0,0,22.51,3.22
Ganj_Dareh_Iran_N:I1951:Lazaridis_2016,51.13,2.68,0,0,0,4.46,0,0,11.21,0,0,30.52
JOR_PPNB:I1414,0,0,13.15,0,19.14,0,0,0.25,33.76,0.54,33.15,0
JOR_PPNB:I1415,0,0,4.72,0,19.57,0,0,0,38.94,0,36.77,0
JOR_PPNB:I1700,0,0,11.66,0,28.87,0,0,1.56,34.8,0,23.11,0
JOR_PPNB:I1701,0,0,12.2,0,12.6,0,0,2.86,32.56,0,39.78,0
JOR_PPNB:I1709,0,0,14.08,0,21.31,2.14,0,1.78,26.97,0,33.71,0
JOR_PPNB:I1710,0,0,12.68,0,23.52,0,0,0,31.66,0,32.14,0
JOR_PPNB:I8554,0,0,18.34,0,20.87,0,0,0,20.77,0,38.64,1.38
 
Francesco said:
https://t.me/genoshistoria
This guy on Telegram published a model of alleged samnite, umbiran and cisapline gauls samples. No idea where he took them from. Here you can see the model if you don't have Telegram. https://twitter.com/nrken19/status/1632753066897297409?cxt=HHwWgsC-5e-Q2qgtAAAA
Click to expand...

There's so much wrong with that I don't even know where to begin. I don't know, as has been said, what these samples are and how they were obtained. Then, they have to be processed. I would doubt the capacity of someone who thinks Corded Ware are "pure steppe". Someone should inform him that many Corded Ware people were admixed with Chalcolithic European farmers. Also, why Corded Ware? From everything we've seen to date, the groups which spoke Italo-Celtic are much more likely to be Beaker derived.

Finally, too many of the categories overlap, which is going to throw off the entire algorithm.
 
Genoshistoria as a source, haha.

Now g25 is more authoritative than Harvard published fstats as per their latest narrative; the last bastion of desperation, haha.

Don't mind me.
 
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