'''''''what is now Greece and Turkey were the same country, with the same culture, language, religion and history.''''''''''
You couldn't be more wrong on this one. First of all, that ''same country'' you refer to = the Ottoman Empire did not only consist of Turkey and Greece. The Ottoman Empire included ALL of Southeast Europe,....Yugoslavia, Bulgaria, Romania, Albania, as well as most of the middle East and North Africa. Greeks were just one of the many ethnic groups to have been occupied by the Ottoman Turks. Not all of Greece actually, because Western Greece (Ionian islands) never became part of the Ottoman Empire. It belonged to Venetians.
As I explained, in that huge area known as the Ottoman Empire, lived ethnic groups with different culture, language, customs and religion. Just because they were occupied by the Ottoman Turks and were *forced* to become parts of the Ottoman Empire does't mean that they became suddenly one and the same i.e. 'one country' with the same culture, language, and religion!!! What an absurd claim to make!
On the contrary, it was precisely because they had a different culture, ethnic backround, language and religion that these ethnic groups, regularly revolted against the Ottoman empire!! Turks, throughout the Ottoman occupation were considered as arch enemies by the Greeks and the other ethnic groups. They were constntly revolting against the Turks, until they gained their much wanted Independence. Bear in mind also, that Greece was the first country to liberate itself from the Ottoman yoke-( Albania being the last), because Greeks had a strong sense of identity.
You write:
''''''''''So what is it that the Turks have change, if not the official language and religion, and bringing some Asian blood (but, as you probably know, there are still blue-eyed Turks of European ancestry) ? ''''''''''
If you are assuming that the Turks after occupiying Greece and the other Balkan countries, intermixed with the local populations you are wrong.This is not the case. When the turks occupied the Balkan they were consider enemies and invadors. You dont mate with your enemy.
In fact there was a segragation between the Christian populations and the Muslim populations in the Ottoman Empire. Intermarriage between Christians and Muslims at that time was stricktly forbidden. In fact conversion from Islam to Christianity was punishable with death.
To imply that the ethnic populations in the Ottoman empire, after their occupation become ' one country' 'one culture' is simply ludicrous. Cultures tend to stick together - and even today- rightly or wrongly you don't see many mixed race marriages. Although in the west this is becoming more common as people are becoming more tolerant, it is still an exception rather than the rule.
On the other side, Ottoman Turks freely intermixed with the other different populations occupied by the Ottoman Empire. ie Kurds, Syrians, Arabs because they shared the same religion and intermixing was permissible by their religion. Some Europeans even converted to Islam to escape the heavy tax burden and inhuman treatment they had to suffer from the Ottomans, and became 'Turks' albeit a very small number. Hence we have today some European looking Turks.
The opposite did not happen though..no Turk converted to Christianity and became 'Greek' , because convesion from Islam to Christianity was punishable with death. (a Christian who converted from Christianity to Islam were ostracised by its ethnic group and was no longer considered part of that ethnic group).
You write:
''''''''''''''If you check the official Turkish tourism website, you'll see that they boast about their European and especialy Greek heritage. A Turk would also probably be more offended to be called an Arab than a European, from what some Turkish friends told me'''''''''''''''''''''''''''
Turks of course want to be considered Europeans, after all the EU is a European Union. The reason they want to be part of it is because their participation would greatly increase the Turkish influence in Europe, Balkans and the Middle east and not because they feel they share the same European values as their fellow Europeans. It is understandable that they want to join the EU, becase the EU (being the democratic entity it is) will be forced to give Turkey (in case it joins) equal power and seats to the Europarliament as countries as Germany, while at the same time contributing nothing to the EU budget. Turkey is extremely large, think that is so big in size as twice the Germany and more! and her population is a big as that of all the 10 EU candidate countries together! At the same time its a very poor and nationalistic country. A recipe for disaster for the EU!
It is understandable that they boast about the Greek heritage, its their only link with Europe. The problem is that they cut that link long time ago, when they ethnically cleansed the Christian minorities (included the Greek) that lived in the country. Today they can no longer of any Greek or European heritage, no more than Tunisia or Jordan can claim European heritage (there are loads of ancient greek heritage in these countries.
You write
''''''Exactly ! I am happy you point that out. You are demonstating yourself that Turks are in fact much closer in lifestyle to Greeks, Bulgarians or Yugosavs than to Finns, Irish or even English.
That doesn't help us define what is "Westerness", does it ? Thanks for your contribution anyway.'''''''''''''
You miss completely the point. The point I was trying to make was that Greeks really aren't that much different from the Finns and the Italians not much different than Italians. By European culture we mean the vague average that is represented by the culture of modern central Europe, with extremes ranging from the Russians and Finns to the Portuguese and Greeks. However, this model certainly does not include Turks, whether some people like it or not.
''''''''Exactly ! I am happy you point that out. You are demonstating yourself that Turks are in fact much closer in lifestyle to Greeks, Bulgarians or Yugosavs than to Finns, Irish or even English.'''''''''''''
I am not saying they aren't. What I am saying is that the *vast majority* of them aren't. Like it or not Turkey is an incredibly big country stretching from Greece all the way to Iran and Iraq. The great majority of them have little in common with Greeks and other South Europeans. A visit to any Turkish town east of Istanbul will be enough to convince you that the local populations there have much more in common with Iranians, Syrians and Iraqis than with Greeks, Italians or Spaniards.
Lol this is really a very biased ridiculously inaccurate view towards Turkey and since you are from Greece I'm not surprised one bit at your seemingly intense hatred, racism, prejudice and ill feelings towards the Turks given the animosity, rivalry and long and complicated history our countries have together. First of all like it or not, Turkey is very western and very modern, I'm not very happy about this fact but it is a fact. Starting from it's history with the birth of the Ottoman Empire, modern day Turkey has always been part of the western and european culture after the Turks migrated from the Central Asian steppes (their birthplace) into Anatolia/Asia Minor, Middle East and Southeastern Europe including the Balkans. The establishment of the Seljuk and especially the Ottoman Empires was started with the conquests of Anatolia/Asia Minor from the weakened Byzantine Empire then eventually taking Constantinople in 1453 and ending the 1,000+ year old Byzantine Empire and incorporating its former and further territories into its rule. At its height, the Ottoman Empire encompassed Southeastern Europe (including all Balkan countries and further, reaching capital of Austria, Vienna and being barely stopped at Central/Western Europe by a combination of three armies being Austrian, earlier Germanic tribes and finally the Poles), all of Arabia and Middle East, North Africa. However no matter how you try to twist the history, it is well-known by many historians and analysts that the Ottoman Empire despite its issues with its minorities at certain times was perhaps one of the very few if not the only tolerant Empire at its time where Jews, Christians and Muslims lived, worked, and coexisted together peacefully. In fact some Christians had more power in the government and in the state than some Muslims as many Greeks, Armenians, etc. were given significant positions within the government. Even some Ottoman Sultans such as Mehmed "the conqueror" had Greek blood in him. No one was forced to convert to Islam, there is absolutely no such claim or proof of it, in the case of the Janissaries (the elite Ottoman soldiers) was a small exception however as small Christian slave children were taken by the government, the ones who were seen as strong or with potential and trained to become Muslim warriors loyal only to the Sultan and had incredible power in the empire at one point even controlling and deciding the choice and functioning of the Sultans until Sultan Mahmud disbanded their practice and constructed a new army system in the early 1800's. The Janissaries were consisted of people from all over the empire but it was mostly composed of Greeks and Turks who made up the main powerful bulk of the army. So in contrary to your claims that the Greeks suffered "heavy tax burdens and inhuman treatment" they were treated and given high priorities by the Sultan and the state, of course not just Greeks but all Christians were taxed to distinguish them from the Muslims, it is not much different than what the British and French as well as other Europeans such as Dutch, Spanish, Portueguese, etc. did to their minorities including Muslim ones when they conquered many territories all over the world. So comparing it to that, I would go as far as to say that the Greeks and other Christian minorities in the Ottoman Empire were in fact treated like kings compared to what the colonized people had to suffer under European imperialist rule. Well like it or not, in most parts of Turkey especially Central and Western but even parts of Eastern Turkey you can find many "European and Western" looking Turks with blue/green eyes, blond or light brown hair, facial characteristics and features, etc. The original and pure Turks look like the Central Asian (Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan, Azerbaijan, Tajikistan and Kyrgyzstan), Mongolian, Chinese Turks (Uyghurs and Huns), Russian Turks (Crimean Tatars, Chechens, Circassians, etc.) and have generally yellowish white skin and slightly slant eyed. Today Turkey is mostly composed of a mixed country with Greek, Albanian, Bosnian, Serbian, Bulgarian, Romanian, Hungarian, Caucasian (Armenia, Azerbaijan and Georgia) and Central Asian, Middle Eastern (Arab, Kurd, Persian, Syriac, Coptic, etc.) and you can only find some original pure looking Turks in small parts of Southeastern Turkey or all over Turkey but to a small extent. So the culture and people themselves have blended into European and Western culture whether you or anyone wants to admit it or not. Yes of course Turkey wants to join EU to gain more influence over European and Middle Eastern affairs just as UK, France or Germany do, what's wrong with that, Turkey is the only country in the Islamic world that is a secular democracy (despite being 99% Muslim) and no matter what corruption and internal problems they have, so do many EU and non EU European and other western countries in the world. Why should countries like UK, France, Germany, US, and other powerful Western countries have more power and influence in Middle East and not Turkey when Turkey is the most important player in the region, pretty much a so called bridge between East and West or Islam and Christianity or Asia and Europe? Turkey is already a very important country in the region as they have continuously been involved in Middle Eastern affairs such as being a mediator between Israel and Syria and Lebanon for peace talks after the wars they fought, refusing to allow US troops to be stationed in Turkish soil to invade Iraq in 2003, and having close ties with Iran, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Central Asia, etc. Being in EU will only contribute little to this power and influence Turkey already enjoys. Turkey is larger than France and UK combined in terms of area/land mass and its population is 76 million according to the latest statistics, UK is 62, France 65 and Germany about 82 million. So it would be one of the most powerful and influential members of the EU along with those countries if they join due to their vast size and population and would have a big role in the EU decisions. I don't see any harm in that as it would greatly benefit the EU and make it more powerful and prosperous, also excuse me but how ignorant do you sound when you make such stupid and inaccurate claims such as Turkey is "At the same time its a very poor and nationalistic country. A recipe for disaster for the EU!" Turkey is yes very nationalistic and fiercely patriotic as many countries such as Greece but it is in now way a poor country. Turkey is currently the 17th largest economy in the world with GDP nominal and 15th in terms of GDP PPP (Purchasing Power Parity), part of G20 (making up top 20 richest countries and economies in the world), while Greece is 27th in GDP nominal and is economy being in a long decline is collapsed and bankrupt as the current news shows. So I would think Greece being already in EU is causing internal problems and instability to the EU while Turkey would greatly benefit it if allowed to join, it is also seen as a rapidly growing economy due to its excellent infrastructure and resources, it pretty much produces and has everything except oil which Middle East and even Europe depends on. Also when you talk about Turkey boasting about it's European, Western or Greek culture and heritage, they do no such thing, they are Turks and proud to be Turk nothing else, and the few of them that do that do have cultural, historical, links to these people like I mentioned earlier in detail whether you like it, believe or accept it or not. You mention the ethnic cleansing of Greeks, Armenians and other peoples by Turks but you fail to mention what atrocities these same people did to innocent unarmed Turkish citizens as well, people always mention the Armenian genocide but fail to look at the fact that there were Armenian gangs and looters attacking, raping, pillaging, killing, torturing, destroying Turkish people, buildings, etc. Double standard, those people should look at the mirror before they talk, judge or blame and accuse others of these and other things. You also mention that Turks have very little in common with Greeks and other Southeastern or western and other Europeans and they do more with Iranians, Iraqis, Syrians, Kurds, etc. Well like I said before they do have much in common with both Europeans and Western world as well as with the Middle Eastern/North African, Arabic, Persian, Kurdish and Islamic world. I'm not going to get into how they share cultural, historical, and other characteristics with Europeans and Western world as I did it in great detail above you can read it again or not I don't really care. I just wanted everyone to see the point of view on the issue from a Turk's mind.
My friends are loughing around me...
