Is Turkey a Western country ?

TurkYusuf1 you are trying much too hard. It is abundantly clear that Turkey has no real place in Europe. Case closed. Finito.
 
Amen to Mycernius, short but bulls eye!
 
Actually the presence of Muslims in Jerusalem predates Prophet Muhammad and his message of Islam. First of all Muhammad was born in 570 not 470 and ur the one telling me to get my facts straight. Second call Muslims Mohemmadans, do I call u Christians Jesuits? , read this I'll copy and paste what the internet says so it's more clear and u won't claim I'm making it up:
I’ll cut to the chase.

Islam is an ideology that is bound together with an invented religion that is a mish mash lf pre-existing religions including paganism. Next do I call Christians Jesuits? No, I call Christians Christians because just as Christians venerate Jesus Christ so Mohammedans venerate Mohammed.

Next the history of Judaism and Christianity. Islam can’t even get that right. There’s error after error in the Koran regarding both religions and as each and every Sefer Torah is an exact copy of each other one, and has been so since waaay before Mohammed was selling camels let alone inventing Islam.

To claim therefore that it contains “errors” that have crept in is simply an excuse to explain why Mohammed got it wrong when he tried to base his book of recitation on it.

In fact each Sefer Torah actually has some characters written small due to flaws in the original Scroll that first memorialised the Pentateuch,

To claim the presence of Muslims in pre – Mohammed epochs is fallacious. Because despite claims to the contrary Islam does not resemble Judaism, and certainly does not resemble Christianity the people who predate Mohammed’s ideology most certainly were not Muslims.

In fact the only similarity between Islam and Judaism and Christianity is that Islam has plagiarised aspects and some moral teachings from both, has frequently got it wrong in the process, and passed it off as its own, much as you have attempted by plagiarising whole tracts from Wikipedia without even crediting the source.

(Wikipedia is one of the less reliable source of information on the web, and really only of value as a means of finding where to look in an orthogonal manner in order to get to the facts.)

Now Turkey.

It is true that Atatürk did establish a democratic and secular state however it is also true that the people are predominantly Muslim and so the legislation that is passed is far from having the total freedom that a TRUE democratic state can enact if for no other reason than to do so would be to deny Shar’ia.

What is also true is that Turkey is getting less and less secular day by day.

As regards the Gastarbeiter, their popularity was initially down to the Turks supporting Germany in WW1, and being cheap after WW2. In recent times “Gastarbeiter” is an insult, a thing that I learned while working for a Bundesanstalt and once referring to myself as being such. I was SOON put right!

In fact for a long time legislation was in place in Germany precluding Turkish Gastarbeiter from remaining in Germany after their work had ended, from being granted voting rights, and from having any easy way of becoming nationalised German citizens so ‘popular’ they were. Even kids born in Germany to Gastarbeiter were not granted German citizenship but instead awarded the status “Aufenthaltsberechtigung” meaning they had the right to remain in Germany until the parents returned to their homelands.

So but me no buts about Turks in Germany. I’ve been there, done it, and have several “Tee shirts”.

As for Turkey bringing the US and Iran “to the table”, until the infamous Iranian regime is deposed there should BE no table, let alone a meeting take place at one.

As for “still having a lot left to accomplish” that is precisely what causes concern. Just what Turkey would want to accomplish within the EU that the people of the EU would want. Looking at Turkey today I would say the answer is nothing. Nada. Zilch.

In any case how can an agreement that is in any way meaningful take place when one side sees compromise as surrender ,and any treaty valid only so long as it suits their needs. The existence of the “Holy Hypocrisy” involving Taqiyya and Kitman devalue any agreement based on trust alone.

Sorry Turkey, be our neighbour and leave it at that. Your interests go way beyond the interests of the EU, and in many cases run counter to being in the best interests of the EU.
 
Islam did not exist as a religion, belief or anything like that until Mohammad claimed to be seeing and hearing things in a cave. He then pinched all the jewish prophets and claimed they were really Muslims along with identlifying a pre-islamic god as a another form of Yahweh.
Allah had three daughters in pre-islamic mythology. Hardly the montheistic deity that Mohammad turned him into.
Load of bollocks and as bad as the christians claiming all the jewish prophets were really christians. Moses was a jew, Abraham was a jew, Jesus was a jew. They followed jewish lore, jewish scripture and jewish tradition. You are as bad as the Mormons trying to claim that all people are really mormons and just haven't seen the way correctly yet.

Lol you are really ignorant and judgemental you know that? I know and have researched my own religion, Christianity and Judaism to be able to tell facts and I copy and pasted these facts from the internet so I wouldn't be blamed for being biased and telling lies. Tell me then why then these things would be allowed to be written, published and accepted by sources on the internet (which the western world controls ironically) if they weren't true and proven? Since you have made a lot of ignorant comments and have disrespected my religion I will not even try to correct you or tell you the truth and how wrong you are since it will be a waste of time trying to explain it to someone like you. I will only say one thing, Islam does not only apply to Muslims fully, Islam (which means total submission to God in Arabic) also applies to Christians and Jews because despite them having a different idea of God they still believe in the one God, that's why they are called the ''people's of the book" in Islam, so that's why all the prophets you listed are considered Muslim and why Islam existed way before it was declared in 610 by Prophet Muhammad. Don't make ignorant and disrespectful comments please if you don't know what you are talking about.
 
Amen to Mycernius, short but bulls eye!

Such disrespect and ignorance from Mycernius and I don't even know how he could be praised other than people who think like him such as you have done.
 
I’ll cut to the chase.

Islam is an ideology that is bound together with an invented religion that is a mish mash lf pre-existing religions including paganism. Next do I call Christians Jesuits? No, I call Christians Christians because just as Christians venerate Jesus Christ so Mohammedans venerate Mohammed.


Next the history of Judaism and Christianity. Islam can’t even get that right. There’s error after error in the Koran regarding both religions and as each and every Sefer Torah is an exact copy of each other one, and has been so since waaay before Mohammed was selling camels let alone inventing Islam.


To claim therefore that it contains “errors” that have crept in is simply an excuse to explain why Mohammed got it wrong when he tried to base his book of recitation on it.


In fact each Sefer Torah actually has some characters written small due to flaws in the original Scroll that first memorialised the Pentateuch,

To claim the presence of Muslims in pre – Mohammed epochs is fallacious. Because despite claims to the contrary Islam does not resemble Judaism, and certainly does not resemble Christianity the people who predate Mohammed’s ideology most certainly were not Muslims.


In fact the only similarity between Islam and Judaism and Christianity is that Islam has plagiarised aspects and some moral teachings from both, has frequently got it wrong in the process, and passed it off as its own, much as you have attempted by plagiarising whole tracts from Wikipedia without even crediting the source.

(Wikipedia is one of the less reliable source of information on the web, and really only of value as a means of finding where to look in an orthogonal manner in order to get to the facts.)


Now Turkey.

It is true that Atatürk did establish a democratic and secular state however it is also true that the people are predominantly Muslim and so the legislation that is passed is far from having the total freedom that a TRUE democratic state can enact if for no other reason than to do so would be to deny Shar’ia.


What is also true is that Turkey is getting less and less secular day by day.


As regards the Gastarbeiter, their popularity was initially down to the Turks supporting Germany in WW1, and being cheap after WW2. In recent times “Gastarbeiter” is an insult, a thing that I learned while working for a Bundesanstalt and once referring to myself as being such. I was SOON put right!


In fact for a long time legislation was in place in Germany precluding Turkish Gastarbeiter from remaining in Germany after their work had ended, from being granted voting rights, and from having any easy way of becoming nationalised German citizens so ‘popular’ they were. Even kids born in Germany to Gastarbeiter were not granted German citizenship but instead awarded the status “Aufenthaltsberechtigung” meaning they had the right to remain in Germany until the parents returned to their homelands.



So but me no buts about Turks in Germany. I’ve been there, done it, and have several “Tee shirts”.

As for Turkey bringing the US and Iran “to the table”, until the infamous Iranian regime is deposed there should BE no table, let alone a meeting take place at one.


As for “still having a lot left to accomplish” that is precisely what causes concern. Just what Turkey would want to accomplish within the EU that the people of the EU would want. Looking at Turkey today I would say the answer is nothing. Nada. Zilch.


In any case how can an agreement that is in any way meaningful take place when one side sees compromise as surrender ,and any treaty valid only so long as it suits their needs. The existence of the “Holy Hypocrisy” involving Taqiyya and Kitman devalue any agreement based on trust alone.

Sorry Turkey, be our neighbour and leave it at that. Your interests go way beyond the interests of the EU, and in many cases run counter to being in the best interests of the EU.


Please don't disrespect and presume things about my religion without knowing anything and just reading and learning from your biased sources and ignorance. I don't want to sound hypocritical but in fact although Christians and Jesus are mentioned and respected in the Quran and in Islam, it is in fact known by Muslims that Christianity is the made up religion as the true teaching of Jesus himself were lost in the centuries as many priests from the Catholic, Protestant, Anglican and Orthodox, etc. sects changed and re-wrote the original Bible according to their own interests and views. The main purpose of the Quran was due to recollect the texts written in the Bible and the Torah in Christianity and Judaism that were lost or changed throughout the centuries. That's why Christians and Jews are called "people's of the book" and they have many similarities between each other. Yeah right, when did you become the expert on world religions? Again such disrespect, ignorance and distorted claims I don't even know when to start. Islam and the Quran explains the original texts from the Bible and Torah that were lost or changed in the centuries. I'm not gonna say anything else. No the Bible and Torah contain errors because they have been constantly changed and distorted by priests and other people who were against the messages and teachings in the original texts so they were recollected and explained in their true essence in the Quran, believe it or accept it or not, this is fact. Like I told the other guy, Islam mean "total submission to God" in Arabic and does not necessarily apply to only Muslims but even Christians and Jews. So since they all believed in one god whatever way or form they believe it in are considered "people's of the book" meaning they all believe in the same message that was declared in the original texts of the Bible, the Torah and the Quran. So all prophets including Abraham, Moses and Jesus are considered part of Islam because according to Islam's meaning they all believed in God so therefore Islam existed way before than when Prophet Muhammad declared it in 610. Again you couldn't be more wrong, Islam is very close to Judaism and resembles Christianity in some ways, in both Islam and Judaism for example, it is forbidden for the believers to eat pig products, to drink alcohol and to have sex before marriage, they both make similar pilgrimages to their holy places and etc. Wikipedia is accurate enough to summarize and explain any topic. Everyone puts stuff there but they have to cite their findings and facts so it's very accurate and whatever you or anyone searches, the first finding that comes up is wikipedia. I can find many other sources if you like but wikipedia is the quickest and fairly accurate way to show the proof for my claims and facts. Yes Turkey is up to this day predominantly Muslim (99%) but according to a recent survey conducted, only about 20-30% of Turks follow their religion and are religious. Since 1923 when Ataturk formed Turkey, this change has occurred. Only in Eastern part of the country where Kurds and some Arabs live, are this small group of religious people and some Turks in throughout the country. No that's not true either, whatever you or people might think, the current government does not have the power, goal or legality to declare Turkey an Islamic country like Iran or Saudi Arabia. In fact the current Prime Minister Erdogan's continued attempts to push for Turkey's accession into EU alone prove that he wants Turkey to continue modernizing and westernizing which has been the country's ultimate goal. Turks were invited by the German government formed after WWII to fill in the void that the German population shortage suffered due to Nazi Germany's costs of the war where about 10 million Germans died. The Turks there worked, studied and lived there and many do until today to support a nation that they didn't have to despite them being allies in WWI. Today Germany possesses about 2-4 million Turks who live there and the only reason they are being looked bad at is due to some of these German Turks being intensely nationalistic or religious and their actions and demonstrations, etc. within Germany. They do no represent all Turks. See that's where the Western world fails to understand how Iran works. I do not support Iran's current regime and do think they are a threat to everyone including Turkey but unless US and it's allies in Europe fail to work together with Iran to resolve their issues, they will not be able to stop their militaristic nature. Didn't US and Europe learn from Iraq and Afghanistan that other countries especially Muslim and countries with different ideologies and values may or do not want what the Western world's "democracy" has to offer. It does not suit every nation so unless a revolution occurs to overthrow the Islamic Iranian regime by a secular aspect of society the West will not be able to attack and defeat Iran as Russia and China support them, so if the West tries to invade and attack Iran there will be a third world war, why do you think Israel and US have not done anything regarding the issue? Turkey wants to finalize it's ultimate and historic goal of modernization and westernization and that's why they want EU accession. They want to share their own and Europe's accomplishments for mutual progresses and results. EU and Turkey are the main trading partners of each other other than US and Turkey has a large and growing successful industry, infrastructure and resources that Europe, US, etc. enjoy through trade with Turkey and vice versa for Turkey. Turkey has the 17th largest economy in the world in nominal GDP, 15th in GDP PPP and part of G20 (the highest and richest Islamic country in the world and its GDP is higher than many European nations such as Sweden, Switzerland, Austria, Greece, etc.) and their economy is a rapidly growing economy so their economic rise and trade benefits would help Europe progress more than it does right now. In military terms, Turkey is considered between 8th-10th most powerful militaries in the world, the strongest and most influential military in the Muslim world, Middle East and Central as well as Western Asia and also like their economy have a very growing and powerful military which would add to Europe's combined military power to counter growing Chinese, Russia and Indian military power in the world. Well that's not really the case, Turkey is already part of many western organizations like OECD, G20, NATO, etc. and like I mentioned earlier are a major trading and economic partner as well as an attractive market for EU. The only thing EU has to not accept Turkey into EU is that they are a Muslim country ignoring the fact that they are a secular democracy and not an Islamic country ruled by the Sharia Law. If the EU gets past it's racist, ignorant and senseless view and description of Turkey they will understand that Turkey would be a good addition into EU. No actually it doesn't. Turkey has many common goals such as making Middle East more stable, has several economic and other projects and joint interests in the area and the world.
 
I know more about your precious little mythology that you call a religion than you presume. I have read that pathetic piece of plagurised shite called the quran and found it wanting. I have read several books on that pedophillic prophet Mohammad, including islamic sources, and found him wanting. As normal you have no answers and when someone directly critcises your religion you retreat into the old canard of "you insulted my religion" and that the Internet is actually anti-islamic. Conspiracy theories along with ignorance, I usually encounter this from fundie christians. Been taking lessons?
Well, no I did not, I criticised it and gave you some real history on the damn thing, but in this post I hope what I have posted does annoy you because people who base their lives on the sayings and life of an ignorant desert warlord do not deserve any respect. You have shown none of this site and you are spouting typical islamic lies. Respect demands respect, but so far islam has done absolutely nothing for me to gain my respect.
As for the disrespect I assume you are refering to my Allah bit. Well the news is that Allah is a pre-islamic deity that Mohammad choose the identify with the Jewish and christian god.
http://www.pantheon.org/areas/mythology/middle_east/islamic/articles.html
Go learn instead of listening to the BS that your imans tell you.
 
I know more about your precious little mythology that you call a religion than you presume. I have read that pathetic piece of plagurised shite called the quran and found it wanting.

If Islam is a "plagurised piece of shite" then why do you think christianity is?

This is from a BBC documentary: Mithras - Pagan Origins of Christianity:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SblyuFUM9Q

Osiris - Pagan Origins of Christianity

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHoDpQaYXw4&feature=related

Nothing in Christianity is original

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dr767bZQWFw&feature=fvw
 
If Islam is a "plagurised piece of shite" then why do you think christianity is?

This is from a BBC documentary: Mithras - Pagan Origins of Christianity:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SblyuFUM9Q

Osiris - Pagan Origins of Christianity

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHoDpQaYXw4&feature=related

Nothing in Christianity is original

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dr767bZQWFw&feature=fvw
I know that christianity is a plagurised piece of shite, but my point was against islam not christianity. If TurkYusuf was a christian saying the same things I would have a go at christianity. Their so called messiah most likely never existed.
 
I have moved the offtopic debate about the African admixture in Iberians. Please stay on topic in further discussions.
 
Maciamo has given me an infraction for saying that Iberians have some African ancestry.

Therefore all I can say is f*ck Maciamo and f*ck this forum!
 
Quick Woden before your excommunicated, what was Monalisa smiling at?
 
Another pair of black legs under the table!

Black legs and frogs legs, thats how she liked it!

:grin:

Put this and all your other maniacal codswallop together for the research universities to review and laugh at. Choose an academic institution, or shall I just go ahead and pick one for you?
 
Maciamo has given me an infraction for saying that Iberians have some African ancestry.

Therefore all I can say is f*ck Maciamo and f*ck this forum!
Your time here is over. I suggest you to visit a psychiatrist.
 
Maciamo has given me an infraction for saying that Iberians have some African ancestry.
Therefore all I can say is f*ck Maciamo and f*ck this forum!
Hey man, the infraction citation I'm sure was for spreading malicious, racist lies and presenting cherry picked, manipulated and grossly inaccurate information, with the explicit purpose of creating a ridiculously false impression about a very old and respected European population segment. You clearly need serious counseling...

THE CASE IS WELL CLOSED...

Now, the genetics departments of some of the top research universities in the world will dissect your mendacious constructs, psychotic fabrications and exaggerations and spit them right back at you in shreds. Total humiliation is just around the corner for you, social Untermensch. You have zero intellectual credibility or integrity.
 
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(I have just entering again here and had no time to follow the whole thread, just read the last page. I have to go now, but I will return later today.)

I see that this debate about Turkey is still raging, and honestly it merits so.

Answering the question "Is Turkey an European country?"... my humble opinion is that it is not, as a whole, although there are Turks that by culture/ethnicity are more europeans than others.

I guess that the fault of this mess started with the naÏve assumption from the part of the Turks themselves that they could be European. It was in a time when there was not so much discussion about "civilizations" and "roots", but only if a country performed well or bad in certain economical and social areas.

I don't know if Turkey will eventually enter the EU (if it persist enough, and there is a window of opportunity)... My advice is that the Turks should not depend on it, continue to work to improve their country, not for the sake of "westernization", but because it deserves it, such a country rich of History and civilization.

Another theme, will be the current international policy of Turkey with Erdogan... that will be the key to understand what really happened in the relationship between Turkey and Europe in the last decades.

Regards.
 
I see now that @TurkYusuf gave a good account of current issues about Turkey... he only failed to mention all the attempts of coup d'etat against Erdogan plotted by some western intelligence agencies, which made him to open more to Iran, which paradoxically behaves more decently with Turkey than the West.

Some users in this thread have gone directly to attack the religion and honor of the Turks, adding insult to damage... for Turkey as been promised access to the EU since many many years... and they see how the EU grows with members that objectively have less to offer. Now, EU politicians gain popularity among rightist sectors of their countries with anti-Turkish and anti-Islamic policies, that play with racist and "civilizatory" arguments before more objective measues.

Still, I personally do not regret that Turkey is denied entrance in the EU (sorry @TurkYusuf). I think that could be a marvelous lesson and learning experiance to the Turkish people, and will motivate them to find their own and more authentic destiny.

Regards.
 

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