Is Turkey a Western country ?

[LeBrok]

Lol, Greece is probably the most western country in the world. After all its the father of western civilization, all of our political and some of our cultural philosophies, have their origin in Greece. Being religious dosent mean your oriental, or non western, are southern baptists oriental? Greece is the west, as its our father, Plato, Socrates, and many other Greek philosophers represent western ideals, and are taught in nearly all north american schools, and European ones to. Rome based everything off Greece, and Rome still stands as one of the most powerful images of western dominance. So again why is Greece not western?

I think he's talking about tolerance and freedoms, most of all, as sign of westernization.

 

[Anthro-inclined]

I think he's talking about tolerance and freedoms, most of all, as sign of westernization.

Greece has just as many freedoms as any other EU nation, and what does tolerance have to do with being western, im pretty sure the southern US treats gays as second class citizens. In canada we have the indian act, a document riddled with discriminitory and intolerant policies.Not to mention the widespread ill treatment of muslims in the west. It seems that we are all intolerant, just in varying degrees, and Greece is nothing special, guarantee you that minorities are treated just as bad in other western nations.

 

[martinmkp]

Turkey - my feelings:
A/ It is western, if we consider Turkey to be as one of the core-stones of the Atlantic Alliance member (NATO). Turkey has played for decades the role of stabilisator in region. I only hope that somebody will thank to Turkey for this approach, not only verbally. Turkey has helped to defend the WESTERN values, and is doing so nowadays.
B/ It is Eastern - if we take into consideration its own cultural values. Turkey is islamic, but moderate, it is modern as well as medieval in style of thinking.
C/ It is one of the cradles and crossroads of European civilisation - Hittites, Assyrians, Macaedonians, Greeks, Bysantium, Ottoman Empire - all of them influenced and co-created Europe we know it today.
(The Ottomans were at the borders of Habsburg Empire in nowadays Slovakia - they burned my family manor house two times in 1570´s , because the local Habsburg military officers and nobility had meetings in this house making plans how to attack the Turkish army in nowadays Hungary).

In Europe, there used to be a very optimistic stream of politicians and citizens who were in favour Turkey being the part of the EU as soon as possible. But, for Turkey to be in the EU, Europe must change itself and first, to make its homework - asking the basic questions. Those questions are very fundamental - from philosophical point of view, politics, economics, as well as religion f.e..

One Japanese political analyst said - it is not so easy to have closer cooperation in East Asia (China, Korea, Japan) due to different values. He mentioned - the EU is not at all the example of regional integration. It will be in the moment, the Turkey will be a part of Europe and it will work.

I am afraid, we are still not prepared for such an integration. The same values binding the integration, this is the key to the success. And, we lack this - the EU and Turkey, even taking into consideration all historical and political aspects of cooperation between both entities (Europe - Turkey).

The Europeans must nowadays make the order at home. They must again to ask themselves the basic questions - what the EU is and what we want to be in near future. Unfortunately, further enlargement, so humanistic, kills the rational functioning of teh EU. If the EU wants to survive somehow, there is no place for any enlargement today and in the near future.

There is a huge gap in cooperation and understanding in the EU itself - the ordinary French or Belgian has really no clues what Romania or Bulgaria is and vice versa. How they can understand Turkey?

 

[albanopolis]

I agree west was born in Greece. But it does live in Greece anymore. It has moved away north of the continent. Lying is western? Did you not lye about your finances before joining the EU? Being lazy is western? Do you know who is feeding you now? Get used to the truth that Greece is a full fledged Orient. As orient as Albania or Turkey is.

 

[albanopolis]

Lol, Greece is probably the most western country in the world. After all its the father of western civilization, all of our political and some of our cultural philosophies, have their origin in Greece. Being religious dosent mean your oriental, or non western, are southern baptists oriental? Greece is the west, as its our father, Plato, Socrates, and many other Greek philosophers represent western ideals, and are taught in nearly all north american schools, and European ones to. Rome based everything off Greece, and Rome still stands as one of the most powerful images of western dominance. So again why is Greece not western?

I agree west was born in Greece. But it does live in Greece anymore. It has moved away north of the continent. Lying is western? Did you not lye about your finances before joining the EU? Being lazy is western? Do you know who is feeding you now? Get used to the truth that Greece is a full fledged Orient. As orient as Albania or Turkey is.​

 

[Anthro-inclined]

I agree west was born in Greece. But it does live in Greece anymore. It has moved away north of the continent. Lying is western? Did you not lye about your finances before joining the EU? Being lazy is western? Do you know who is feeding you now? Get used to the truth that Greece is a full fledged Orient. As orient as Albania or Turkey is.​

In my mind Turkey isnt western because most of its culture has been altered to a middle eastern or islamic one in the last 800 or so years, and its traditions mirror this, their language is also eastern. Greece however hasnt faced this alteration, and its culture and traditions have remained since antiquity, so it still remains western. So give me factors that make Greece eastern, dont just claim it and not back it up, how has Greece lost its place in the west?

 

[Yetos]

In another Thread we were debating in what is East Europe and what is West Europe,

I will ask what is the determination of 'WESTERN'?

1) Good Economy of the the country,

Turkey is in G20 so yes it is western.

2) Religion? (west Europe's religions)

Turkey is not.

3) Democratic way of rulling

Turkey makes elections so it is Western

4) working class laws, production system,

Turkey is western world

5) Human rights

well that is something for discuss.

6) ....

7) ...

we must determine what is WESTERN.

 

[kamani]

"non-Western" is just a vague classification used mostly for labeling and discriminating. It's a way to give simple people in "rich" countries peace of mind when thinking about all the people in "poor" countries. "They're non-western so they're lazy, that's why they have problems..."

 

[Anthro-inclined]

"non-Western" is just a vague classification used mostly for labeling and discriminating. It's a way to give simple people in "rich" countries peace of mind when thinking about all the people in "poor" countries. "They're non-western so they're lazy, that's why they have problems..."

I completely agree, it is a very arbitrary definition. In the end all cultures and customs have differences, and it becomes impossible to fit them nicely in two neat categories. However there are some aspects that have become intertwined with the "west", and that differ from the rest. Niall Ferguson wrote an interesting novel on the differences between these two theorized entities called Civilization: The West and the Rest,and what has made the west overcome everybody else to become the dominant force in our present day. Alot of what he says is very elitest and somewhat condisending to other cultures, however he makes a few good arguments ( a book LeBrok may want to look into as it seems to coincide with alot of what he says ). So again I agree that the way that most of this forum is using the idea of the west is arbitrary, as it cannot classify much of what we are disscussing, but none the less there are some marked differences in the nations that represent the west, the diffuculty is determining if what separates us is founded in ideals, or is simply conciquential.

 

[albanopolis]

I completely agree, it is a very arbitrary definition. In the end all cultures and customs have differences, and it becomes impossible to fit them nicely in two neat categories. However there are some aspects that have become intertwined with the "west", and that differ from the rest. Niall Ferguson wrote an interesting novel on the differences between these two theorized entities called Civilization: The West and the Rest,and what has made the west overcome everybody else to become the dominant force in our present day. Alot of what he says is very elitest and somewhat condisending to other cultures, however he makes a few good arguments ( a book LeBrok may want to look into as it seems to coincide with alot of what he says ). So again I agree that the way that most of this forum is using the idea of the west is arbitrary, as it cannot classify much of what we are disscussing, but none the less there are some marked differences in the nations that represent the west, the diffuculty is determining if what separates us is founded in ideals, or is simply conciquential.

The difference between east and west is the way of thinking. It is not racial. Japan for instance has adopted a lot of western manners, even though they have created a workable hybrid of their local culture and western values. Way of thinking is a wide definition but I will mention you one: Porn Industry. Its not promoted in the west but its not vilified . Try to do that in Turkey!!! Its a heresy there! I am sure in private they watch it but they don't tolerate it in open. There are 7 mil Turkish living in Europe for decades and they do not change their way of life. They are not westernising. Now people in this forum are trying to make the case that Turkey itself is wetern. You kidding me? Turks in Turkey are western and those in Germany are not?

 

[BakodiP]

Turkes is not an Eastern country, but surly a European one! If the EU wants to be a real global actor it should have accepted Turkey decades ago!

 

[albanopolis]

Turkes is not an Eastern country, but surly a European one! If the EU wants to be a real global actor it should have accepted Turkey decades ago!

Well, If Turkey is not a middle-eastern country then which one it is? What Turkey and the rest of Europe have in common? Nothing. Their culture is heavely influenced by islam, europes by christianity. Turkey's language is Mongolic, Europes indoeuropean. Turkey consistently has threatened western culture by its invasions. Had they acheived their goal of conquering Europe in the middle ages imagine what Europe would be today? If Turks are Europeans why not Iran? Afganisatan? They at least speak indo-european languages. Turks are even racialy distinct from a large part of Europe. So, what makes them European? Their territories are in Asia minor. What Morocco and Algeria have different from Turkey? Should they join EU? What EU will get from accepting Turkey? A large undeveloped country with massive workforce? You have to create jobs for them. Jobs are not easy to come. It would be more natural for Turkey to create TurKic UNION. Europe played a major role in destroying The Old Turkey called the Ottomans. Why should now Europe rebuild what they destroyed? If Europe wants to be a global actor it should spend more in science. The size of the population is not determinant. China has allways being big but never played iny role.

 

[BakodiP]

It's funny that you are criticizing Turkey about her Islam religion from a country where the majority of the population are Muslim as well. Anyway the EU for me is not about values, but interests. Turkey has a booming economy and great potential, an extremly strong army comparing to European ones, and Turkey also has her connections in the Middle East which could make Europe a global player. You suggest that spending on science could achieve it. Every invention can be easily copied in our modern age, just see China. I'm not saying we shouldn't spend on r&d, but to rely only on this one can't buy as a seat at the global arena.

 

[albanopolis]

It's funny that you are criticizing Turkey about her Islam religion from a country where the majority of the population are Muslim as well. Anyway the EU for me is not about values, but interests. Turkey has a booming economy and great potential, an extremly strong army comparing to European ones, and Turkey also has her connections in the Middle East which could make Europe a global player. You suggest that spending on science could achieve it. Every invention can be easily copied in our modern age, just see China. I'm not saying we shouldn't spend on r&d, but to rely only on this one can't buy as a seat at the global arena.

Well, I am not critisizing Turkey about Islam. Who am I, by the way to critisize Turkey? I am saying what I hear, and what I know about Turkey. Did not they try to destroy Europe in the Middle ages? You are wright when you saying my country is muslim majority, or as Albanians put it "Muslim Light" , but that does not mean I am in love with Muslims. I hate most muslims and some christians and a lot of buddist too. Don't be fooled about Turkeys military strengths. I major war between major powers will be fought atomically, not conventionally. So any conventional strenth Turkey might have is worthless. They could threaten and reconquer Greece if they want, or Cypros or Bulgaria but that's about it. If wars are won by numbers of military then China should have conquered Russia. They can provide for every Russian soldier 15 chineese. But because of nukes they are behaving. About the economic strengths of Turkey: The compettitive edge of Turkey stands on cheap labour not in technology. So that compettitivnes is wiped out as soon as wages rise. After that will be a burden in Union Back. So my opinion is Turkey should not be in the Union. Albania too is not worthy being in the Union too, but since the territory is in Europe it will look like a whole if they don't accept it. My opinion is that Union lost a chance of chasing Greece from the Union as worthless member, and they should do the same with Cyprus. Turkey is not wanted by many important countries of the Union. Had Turkey been viewed as European and important would have been accepted already. Who according to you is more European Turkey, or Ucraine, Georgia, Belorusia, Armenia?

 

[BakodiP]

Maybe Ukraine, Georgia, Belorussia and Armenia has more things to do with Europe than Turkey, but they will never be part of the EU. They're in the sphere of Russian influence and it will not change unless something dramatic will happen.

About the military: I'm not thinking about a major war when all the great powers attack each other. That era is over. Turkey has a great military capability comparing against her regional partners so there's hardly any state in the Middle East who is thinking about attacking Turkey in any scenario. That means a proxy war can hardly break out. If Turkey can bring Europe the Middle East, or at least some of it's resources it would be great! And that's why we need Turkey!

Not to mention rejecting Tukrey from the EU drives the religious to a winning position, and the achievements of Kemal could easily fade away!

 

[errantbit]

Turkey is clearly a non-western country for its most part.

 

[TimurKhan]

Well, If Turkey is not a middle-eastern country then which one it is? What Turkey and the rest of Europe have in common? Nothing. Their culture is heavely influenced by islam, europes by christianity. Turkey's language is Mongolic, Europes indoeuropean. Turkey consistently has threatened western culture by its invasions. Had they acheived their goal of conquering Europe in the middle ages imagine what Europe would be today? If Turks are Europeans why not Iran? Afganisatan? They at least speak indo-european languages. Turks are even racialy distinct from a large part of Europe. So, what makes them European? Their territories are in Asia minor. What Morocco and Algeria have different from Turkey? Should they join EU? What EU will get from accepting Turkey? A large undeveloped country with massive workforce? You have to create jobs for them. Jobs are not easy to come. It would be more natural for Turkey to create TurKic UNION. Europe played a major role in destroying The Old Turkey called the Ottomans. Why should now Europe rebuild what they destroyed? If Europe wants to be a global actor it should spend more in science. The size of the population is not determinant. China has allways being big but never played iny role.

No , Turkey is neither European nor Middle eastern. Turkey has a culture unique to its own. It has influences from both but varies greatly , even the way of Islam they live.

 

[Pandora]

This discussion becomes something really confusing. First of all, I am agree with some users on defining what is western. Genetically? So, I can assure you that Turkey is a very mixing country with it's genetic pool. Even I am a %25 Bosnian, %25 Crimean - Tatar probably-, %25 Caucasian - Greek - Greek probably- and %25 Turkish. Almost all of the Turks have that kind of varierty in their bloods.

Hattites (They were settled in Ankara- Yozgat) were the first known- civilization which speak an Indo- Euoprean language.

The researchersfrom Cophenagen University found out that the first blue eyed people ( if you don't know, blue eye is a mutation) were from Black Sea region of Turkey and all of the blue eyed people that you know today is rooted with this guy!

Galatians were a Celtic civilisation which were assimilated by Turks after 1070 but you can still see their ruins at the north-east of Turkey.

If you go through to northern part of Turkey, you are still going to see lots of ginger people who carries their celtic ancestors genethics. Having blue-green eyes is something normal for all parts of Turkey.


I don"t think that I should get in Greek and Ionian civilisations in Turkey.

So, It is hard to talk about a huge country like Turkey. I know that, especially the ones from American continent ( I met lots of European who think like that too.) think that Turks are Arabs, wear headscarfs, they have five women, they ride camels, they speak Arabic, they live in deserts.

1- Turkish language has ne connection with Arabic-semitic languages. Turkish comes from Altaic languages -like Kazakh, Turkmen, Gagaous (a Turkic Orthodox population awho live in Moldovia) , Mongolian.

2- I do live in Turkey and even I don't see any woman with black scarfs. You can see in some sects maybe. But not in normal life. Yeah, there are lots of women woth hairscarf but I can assure you that they look way more modern than the muslim women who live in European countries.

3- It is riddiculous to say that we can marry with five women. We have laws. And it is not in our culture to marry with lots of women. Yeah maybe hundereds of years ago but even if you tell someone to do that, they will look at you like you are a Martian.

4-I am not event going to get into camels and desserts. It becomes funny.

I oberve that lots of people has prejudices for Turkish people. Here are the things on social life- democracy- human rights;

-The right to vote for women was accepted in 1930 in Turkey. In Italy and France, women could get their rights to vote in 1946! Swiss was way worse, in 1971!

-We have lots of issues on human rights and democracy. Turkey made it's first democratical elections in 1945. But Europe also should accept the facts like Franco regime in Spain it dured until 1974! Coup d'Etat in Greece was a disaster too.

Turkey is a bridge country between east and west but it never totally becoma a part of east. Ottoman Empire was bulits as a Balkanic Emprie so lots of places in Balkan were invased before the invasion of Istanbul.

The thing that I am tring to say, making a definition of western is not possible and very controversial. In my eyes, Sicilians or Andolusians are way more eastern than Nordic- Tracian Turks.

You can consider Turkey as Western or not, it will not change the fact that Turkey never will be out of Euopean charts because of it's links historical and genetic links.

But yes, we need to make steps forward on progression on human rights. It is a big issue for instance.

 

[Echetlaeus]

I do not even understand why someone would ask this kind of question. Of course Turkey is not a European country. As long as it belongs to Islam there are no common values. People come and go, and what is left is the civilisation. What did Turkey offered to Western Europe? Probably rennescaince, for all Greek scholars left Constantinople to the West carrying all the works of the ancients.

What did Turkey offer to Greece and the rest of the Balkans? Nothing but 500 years of slavery and stagnation. That's the simple truth whether you Westerners like it or not. Sometimes I believe you speak without evidence at all.

And I do not know if the name Asia Minor tell you something.

P.S. I will continue supporting this no matter how many negative ratings I get from the Anti-Europeans!!!

 

[Echetlaeus]

And do not make the mistake to rely on DNA and other biological factors. What matters the most is the education that someone has. Not only Turkey is not geographically a European country, but the values are different as well.

And luckily France and Germany will not make the mistake to put as the leader of Europe a country which in the next years will be bigger in terms of population than Germany.