AIDS spreading fast worldwide

[Satori]

What's interesting is that most of the cases reported in Africa were (and are) among heterosexuals, not homosexuals.

Speaking of which, I just noticed this article about the increase in AIDS orphans in Africa:

http://www.msnbc.com/news/998443.asp?vts=112720031449

This is really sad. It doesn't sound like the governments over there are doing much to address this problem, so it will most likely continue to get worse.

[silver angel]

Satori you deserve one of my hugs! *hugs* You must be one of the smartest people I know! I've been able to cope witht he losses but my friend Tony is still shaken up from it all. He has AIDS too (from the same outbreak) and he knows that he doesn't have much time left. So everyone is helping him get back on his feet.

[Satori]

Oh my God, poor Tony! I'm sure he's shaken up, especially knowing the same thing is going to happen to him. What a horrible, horrible realization to have to live with! And it has to be so hard on you, knowing you're going to lose him too. You deserve a big hug, and let's both give Tony a hug!! My heart really goes out to him!

[silver angel]

Thanks so much Satori! You're a big help.

[Iron Chef]

Just an FYI:

Today (Dec. 1st) is World AIDS Day. Everybody do yourself a favor and go get tested (for your own peace of mind) if you haven't already done so. Most places can do it for free with the results confidential. It's quick, easy, and painless and can be done in as little as 20 minutes using the OraQuick method which has a 99.6% accuracy rate.

*ends sermon*
:)

[samuraitora]

If I may ask a question with out everyone hating me for what I say.

Is anyone to be held accountable for his or her actions?
If so, are there consequences for their choices?
I was always under the impression that; you make your choice and there are reactions and consequences that follow that choice. If this doesn�t apply to all choices and only to the minor ones, please set me straight.

I will not retract what I said. No one even seems to notice the Parentheses, Brackets and Quotation marks around the �for the most part�. I don�t believe that everyone that has the disease deserves it. I am also not passing judgment. This is simple logic, unless you guys straighten me out. I was under the impression that if you are caught speeding, you get a ticket. In the same respect, if you do something to contract AIDS, you�re going to get it. Simple, or so I thought. Why this makes me callous, I am not sure. So, true, I am not a bleeding heart. I don�t feel that everyone on this planet deserves to be happy and comfortable all the time and I do hold people accountable for their actions. If this makes me an ass, then so be it. I am an ass.

[Satori]

Originally posted by Samuraitora:
If I may ask a question with out everyone hating me for what I say.

Is anyone to be held accountable for his or her actions?
If so, are there consequences for their choices?
I was always under the impression that; you make your choice and there are reactions and consequences that follow that choice. If this doesn?t apply to all choices and only to the minor ones, please set me straight.

I will not retract what I said. No one even seems to notice the Parentheses, Brackets and Quotation marks around the ?for the most part?. I don?t believe that everyone that has the disease deserves it. I am also not passing judgment. This is simple logic, unless you guys straighten me out. I was under the impression that if you are caught speeding, you get a ticket. In the same respect, if you do something to contract AIDS, you?re going to get it. Simple, or so I thought. Why this makes me callous, I am not sure. So, true, I am not a bleeding heart. I don?t feel that everyone on this planet deserves to be happy and comfortable all the time and I do hold people accountable for their actions. If this makes me an ass, then so be it. I am an ass.

Hi Samuraitora!

While I can't speak for anyone else, I do know that the problem for me wasn't so much whether or not people are held accountable for their actions but, rather, why YOU felt the need to hold them accountable for their actions. It seemed that instead of merely acknowledging your friends' and others' situations and being there for them in their time of need, you were judging them and claiming that they "deserved" what they were experiencing. In other words, you were there for them with judgment, not love and true friendship. There's a big difference between acknowledging something and judging it to be right or wrong, good or bad, positive or negative. Why should it even matter how they got the disease? The fact is, they have it and they need your compassion now more than ever. The reason I said that I was "shocked" was because I was truly shocked by your attitude. Obviously, I haven't read all of your posts at this forum, but of the posts I have read, you always seemed to come across as someone who was pretty laid back and tolerant of most things and people. That is why you shocked me! I guess the question I have is, Why do you feel the need to judge and hold others accountable for their actions? On the one hand, you say, " I am also not passing judgment. " But then you also say, "I do hold people accountable for their actions. If this makes me an ass, then so be it." Yet the whole purpose of viewing situations in a "cause-and-effect" context is to learn from them with respect to our OWN experiences, and not as a license to judge others and their experiences. My first thought all along was that you may have been projecting your own judgment and self-blame onto your friends' situations, and I think you even alluded to the fact that you were basing your judgment on some of your own past experiences that you held yourself accountable for. In that respect, I wonder if maybe you are still harboring a lot of judgment and blame towards yourself for some of your own past actions. As I'm sure you know, we can only be loving towards others to the extent that we love ourselves; we can only be forgiving towards others to the extent that we forgive ourselves; and we can only be compassionate towards others to the extent that we are compassionate with ourselves. Maybe if you focused more on healing the areas within yourself where you may still harbor judgment and blame towards yourself, you could learn to have more compassion, forgiveness, and love for yourself, which you would then be more likely to demonstrate towards others as well. We're all mirrors for each other in life. And while we can't change other people, we can change ourselves by changing our fears, doubts, attitudes, and beliefs. This is just one example, but about 10 or 15 years ago, I dealt with this same type of situation, only in relation to the issue of deception. Whenever someone would lie to me it would really push my buttons! So one day I decided to examine what that was all about. I knew that what we are, we attract, and that whatever we react to strongly in another person or another situation--good or bad--is what we have not yet identified or acknowledged within ourselves. So the first question I asked myself was, Do I lie to other people? No. Next question. Do I lie to myself? Yes ... and usually about the person who's lying to me. So my self-deception attracted deception into my life. And it was then that I realized that the real issue wasn't about deception but about power and control. Because the real question was, Why was I relying so heavily on other people's information? It's all information. Why rely on it? Why give my power away like that? So once I acknowledged those areas within myself, I no longer attracted deception into my life--or if I did experience it, it no longer affected me or pushed my buttons. I would simply look at the person who was lying to me and think to myself, "How interesting. They need to lie to me for some reason." But it wouldn't bother me because I didn't choose to buy into their information. I would simply acknowledge it instead. Anyway, my point is, maybe if you explored more fully your own judgment and blame towards yourself, you might not be so judgmental towards others' experiences. Because, frankly, it sounds to me like your friends need your love and understanding, not your judgment, at this very difficult time in their lives.


Satori
:)

[samuraitora]

Thanks for the input Satori. There are quite a few glistening gems for thought in there. I understand where you�re coming from with the loving others as much as yourself and such. This I believe to a certain extent. I care more, am more compassionate, and empathizes with and for others more so than with my self. I am very hard on my self because I come from an abusive background. I was beaten a few times a day for the first 8 years of my life and mental tortured for the next 20. This is not an excuse for my actions, just a side note, so you can dive into the psyche of John.

You hit the nail right on the head. I apologize for coming across as the judge of these people. It wasn�t meant that way. If I hold people accountable, does that make me the judge? I don�t think I am the exicutioner either. I am just a spectator in this crazy thing we call life. Was there a manual passed out that I missed? Just Kidding!!! There are rules and one that I have notice over my 29 years is that if you do something, something else is going to happen.

[Satori]

Hi Samuraitora!

There are rules and one that I have noticed over my 29 years is that if you do something, something else is going to happen.

True, but it's not our place to judge that for others.

If I hold people accountable, does that make me the judge?

Afraid so! Holding someone accountable is definitely judging. Why not simply acknowledge where they are at in their life and leave it at that? As you pointed out, "I am just a spectator in this crazy thing we call life." If so, then merely witness what's going on and refrain from holding anyone "accountable." Let them worry about their own karma, while you worry about yours. Try not to see them or their situation as either good or bad, right or wrong, but, rather, "what is." (Very Zen, by the way!!)

Was there a manual passed out that I missed?

LOL! I feel that way about a lot of things in life!

I am very hard on my self ...

I can relate. I have a very similar background myself, and it seems most of my life has been spent trying to overcome it. I still find myself carrying out other people's punishment at times. It's amazing how ingrained that sort of thing can become. I, too, was always more supportive and understanding of others than I was towards myself. It's taken me years to learn to treat myself as good as--or better--than I treat everyone else. It's tough, though, especially if you were raised in a family where your needs just weren't important, or at least as important as everyone else's. But the easier you are on yourself, the easier you will be on others. It really has to start with yourself first. Sometimes if a person's background and childhood include abusers who were never punished (for most of us, that would be our parents), they will oftentimes vicariously experience situations where, in their minds, justice is finally being carried out against "the bad guy." I've noticed this a lot with prosecutors. A lot of them come from very abusive childhoods, and they feel that when they are able to achieve justice for a client, they somehow achieve justice for themselves as well. Of course, the reality is that they are still suffering and nothing that happens externally is going to fix that. That's why it really doesn't serve anyone's interests for you to hold anyone accountable. That's their job. You can only work on yourself and your own issues and choices in life. And that, alone, can be a full time job! I have a brother-in-law who broke his neck when he was one month shy of turning 25 (this was back in 1979). He and some of his relatives were out on a boat in the Gulf of Mexico, and while he checked the stick that measures the depth of the water on one side of the boat, he failed to check it again on the other side. So when he dove in, he ended up hitting his head on a sandbar and breaking his neck. He is now paralyzed from the chest down, and has only 40% use of his lungs. He has use of his arms and hands, but since he doesn't have much grip strength in his hands, he's considered a quadriplegic (four limbs involved). It's tough, because he will always be haunted by his actions or inactions that day. But what good does that serve anyone? The fact is, he's now paralyzed and that is his life from here on out. I don't judge him, and I would hope he can get to the point where he no longer judges himself (maybe he has). Life is too short to live it with regrets of any kind. Instead, I like the motto: "Live and let live!"

Anyway, hope that helps!

Satori
:)

[Elizabeth]

Originally posted by Satori

I can relate. I have a very similar background myself, and it seems most of my life has been spent trying to overcome it. I still find myself carrying out other people's punishment at times. It's amazing how ingrained that sort of thing can become. I, too, was always more supportive and understanding of others than I was towards myself. It's taken me years to learn to treat myself as good as--or better--than I treat everyone else. It's tough, though, especially if you were raised in a family where your needs just weren't important, or at least as important as everyone else's. But the easier you are on yourself, the easier you will be on others. It really has to start with yourself first. Sometimes if a person's background and childhood include abusers who were never punished (for most of us, that would be our parents), they will oftentimes vicariously experience situations where, in their minds, justice is finally being carried out against "the bad guy." I've noticed this a lot with prosecutors. A lot of them come from very abusive childhoods, and they feel that when they are able to achieve justice for a client, they somehow achieve justice for themselves as well. Of course, the reality is that they are still suffering and nothing that happens externally is going to fix that. That's why it really doesn't serve anyone's interests for you to hold anyone accountable.

I think I understand what you are trying to say, Satori, about the wielding of power externally not healing deep-seated internal wounds, which need forgiveness and understanding and in that sense criminal abusers cannot be "held accountable" for not fulfilling that need in those they've harmed in the same way that your brother should not hold himself accountable for something in which no remediation is now possible.
I'm just not sure in what other senses "accountability" shouldn't be applied. It seems totally justifiable and necessary in legal and work related settings, for instance, where the well-being of other people is concerned that everyone need be responsible for their own performance and ethical conduct. Doesn't mean that there aren't explanations for criminal/mis-behavior or that you shouldn't try to understand it, just that there will be external consequences where appropriate to try and prevent the same thing from happening again. Whether AIDS victims deserve to die or not (are morally accountable for their actions) is also beside the point since it remains a virtual death sentence in many places regardless of the sympathy or understanding they may garner. All you can do really is try to prevent the powerless or unsuspecting from also becoming affected.

[Satori]

Hi Elizabeth,

I agree there needs to be legal liability. I was merely directing my response to Samuraitora's posts about moral accountability, not legal accountability. I don't think it's our place to judge others morally and to hold them accountable in that respect. But legal liability is a whole different animal. That's why I said in one of my earlier posts that if there is anyone to blame for AIDS, it's the people who developed the virus in the first place. With respect to my comments about prosecutors, I was referring to their moral self-righteousness in addition to their duty to carry out justice. In the law, it's important to stay objective and neutral as much as possible, but some people have a tendency to project their own issues into the fray too often. I just think that those who are injured and damaged by this disease need our love, understanding, and compassion, not our judgment.

Satori
:)

[samuraitora]

My thought, just to help me understand, is that we are not supposed to hold people accountable for their actions. The can do anything they want and have no conciquences???

I am not trying to argue, just trying to understand. Judge, I am not trying to be either. They made their decision/choice and the judgement, in this case, was made by nature (not me). I didn't say that they had to get AIDS or anything for what they have done. I just think that they need to be held accountable for thier actions and take responsibility for their deeds.

[Satori]

Judge, I am not trying to be either. They made their decision/choice and the judgement, in this case, was made by nature (not me). I didn't say that they had to get AIDS or anything for what they have done. I just think that they need to be held accountable for thier actions and take responsibility for their deeds.

So you say, although you also posted earlier:

I just think that AIDS is a better population control than War, because people whom contract it (["for the most part"]) deserve it. That may seem short sided, but if your having unprotected sex or utilizing intravenous needles for drug use, you deserve it. No if, ands, or buts.

The point is, you are not being paid to sit on a jury trial, nor are your friends' lives on trial. So why is it that you feel it is your duty to see that they are held accountable for anything in their lives? It's really not your business. Needing to see them pay for something you think they did sounds more like your issues, not theirs. If you are a true friend, you will simply be there for them in their time of need and suspend any and all judgment.

[Elizabeth]

Originally posted by samuraitora
My thought, just to help me understand, is that we are not supposed to hold people accountable for their actions. The can do anything they want and have no conciquences???

I am not trying to argue, just trying to understand. Judge, I am not trying to be either. They made their decision/choice and the judgement, in this case, was made by nature (not me). I didn't say that they had to get AIDS or anything for what they have done. I just think that they need to be held accountable for thier actions and take responsibility for their deeds.

And who is to say they are not after all? It's a very individual matter of course, those who feel they were somehow sexually violated may blame their partner, some may not even be aware of how they got it and on and on. There are a myriad of perspectives and there really isn't any greater accountability that I can see then living with a terminal illness.

[buruburu]

@ Samuraitora

I tried to write a super long passionate reply to prove some of your quotation are very disturbing.
So, staying courteous, I'll only add:
Have you consider a personnal implication of the consequences of war and AIDS contamination? Can you imagine your friend or relatives be victims of this fleau?
The verb "to deserve" is dodgy;;

[samuraitora]

It is a good point...it is dodgy.

I apologize for my comments!
I am done!

[Satori]

Silver Angel,

I've been thinking about your friend, Tony. How is he doing lately? Is he holding up okay? I hope so! Please tell him I am keeping him in my prayers.

Satori

P.S. I saw this photo recently and it reminded me of your moniker, "Silver Angel":

[dadako]

Who here thinks that AIDS might be part of a grander plan?

A few examples are South Africa's chemical weapons tests, explains why whites have a higher tollerence to aids than blacks.

Or some kind of other Chemical weapon, invented during the war.

how about mother nature herself, kicking in some sort of automatic population control.

god?

aliens?

[bossel]

I think that it's quite well established now that HIV originated in Chimps (known as SIV there) & was somehow transferred more or less naturally to human beings in the mid 20th century.

More on the origins of HIV:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/2983092.stm

[ponynut]

oh my goodness, ive just read all of the postings and d'you know what? the person posting origonally just doesnt quite gett it! i think satoris comments are excellent, id like to say people with hiv or aids only deserve sympathy-isnt it bad enough having the virus??? they dont need judging after the fact do they dear?, you must be so dissatisfied with life and dissapointed with everyone, i feel for you, tell me- i suffer with M.E and co-incidentally the symptoms are similar to AIDS accept thankfully im told i wont die directly of it, do i deserve it too???, hmmmmm i wonder?, no, im not having a dig actually im quite interested how you figured your conclusions out?, you say shouldnt we be accountable for our actions??? im not sure if we are from the same earth/mental ward here but who told you 'life was fair?' it seems like you feel thats how things should be, sadly they are not, chocolate makes you fat and apparently childbirth hurts, oh cheer up, life is poo sometimes thats a fact, we all make mistakes, people live to make fools of us, sometimes things even go right, my guess is that we were all put on this earth for a reason-i expect youll think im wrong, i dont care really (judge away) i think life is about clearing up mess, ours and other peoples, how well we do depends on how we clear it up!-simple really, if we are abused and are made a mess of its really about clearing up that mess, its not about the person abusing you, you are only in control of your own brain after all, yes sometimes that is the hard part-being in control of it (not in an O.C.D way) anyway, im not digging at you but please put a thought aside for the horrendous reality of some peoples situation and what they have to face, also stop trying to justify stuff-you dont have to be perfect or right, youll wear yourself out! oh and judgement day will come soon enough for all of us dont be too hasty to get there first-enjoy life its too short for any of us-take it easy.

[ponynut]

to bossel... your note about chimps, i have read studies about such theories and conclusions derived from tons of evidence to support that the AIDS virus is derived from chimps, i have also read studies rer f. batmanghelidj, he says that even if (for example) two men without the hiv virus partake of enough a*** sex, they eventually develop a tear and semen enters the blood, he claims that even if the guys dont have it they will eventually succumb to aids like symptoms because the make up of semen is such that it is an immune suppressant(apparently) a protein called sv-iv, i havent read all of this mans studies, but just thought if the subject interests you you may want to check-out his work, he claims to be able to treat aids succesfully as well, after having read his book on the healing properties of water i believe this man to be above board and normal, check him out anyway.

[Eternal Wind]

To what I may think about aids is that Humans are the cause of it,we humans like to have sex,and sex leads to diseases,diseases leads to chaos....and wad we should do now to stop the spread is to have protected sex and prevent prositution etc.know ur partners condition and all this can be prevented...as for a cure?how long will it take to have one?

[deborah gormley]

wow HEATED!!!

every-one has and deserves an oppinion!!! no matter how crazy or uninformed it may seem,,, I dare not give my opinion,, I just might come out of this debate feeling a little [email protected] the topic!!! Have my last "ROLO" . I"m sure AIDS is that far spread around the world that more people than I can Imagion has been touched/will be touched by its effects, lets not pass judgement on how it is contracted? undeserved/deserved!! Its a killer,, lets find a CURE!! instead!!!!

[Satori]

I finally found the article I mentioned previously. I was in the middle of packing again, and where did I find the magazine I was looking for? At the bottom of my magazine rack, that's where. Now, who would have thought to look there?! LOL. And I had been looking through boxes of old magazines, silly me. Anyway, here it is:

The Search for the Ultimate Bioweapon

The military has several times expressed its fantasies for new biological weapons. Some of these images are chillingly suggestive of a microbe that would cause AIDS. In 1969, a military official testified before Congress:

"Within the next 5 or 10 years, it would
probably be possible to make a new infective micro-organism which could differ in certain important respects from any known disease-causing organisms. Most important of these is that it might be refractory [resistant] to the immunological and therapeutic processes upon which we depend to maintain our relative freedom from infectious disease."

In a book on CBW written just before the identification of AIDS, two authors commented on this testimony:

"The possibility that such a 'super germ' may have been successfully produced in a laboratory somehwere in the world in the years since that assessment was made is one which should not be too readily cast aside.... This is not an entirely academic speculation. In 1968 Porton Down [the British Army's Biological Warfare Laboratory] and Ft. Detrick collaborated in the successful transfer of genes between different strains of plague bacillus. The research was done 'for purely defensive purposes.'"

...

CBW Tests in the U.S.

Tests of CBW agents, often performed without the knowledge of human subjects, have been carried out for decades on both individuals and entire populations. Many of these programs were exposed in the mid and late 1970s through media and congressional investigations and Freedom of Information lawsuits. The most famous program was MKULTRA, one of several CIA and Army projects seeking to perfect mind control and incapacitating agents. Many of the drugs tested had been rejected by pharmaceutical companies due to their undesirable side effects. In the 1950s and 1960s, scores of such drugs, including LSD, were tested on military personnel and prisoners.

Other common CBW tests included open-air experiments spraying what were claimed to be harmless agents. In 1977, the Army admitted carrying out hundreds of such tests since World War II, including 25 targeting the public. On 48 occasions between 1951 and 1967, the Army employed microbes known to be disease-causing agents in open air tests, and it used disease-causing anti-crop substances 31 times. Some especially outrageous highlights:

* In 1950, the U.S. Navy sprayed a cloud of bacteria over San Francisco. The Navy claimed the bacteria used in the simulated attack were harmless, but many residents came down with pneumonia-like symptoms and one died.

* In 1952 and 1953, clouds of zinc cadmium sulfide were sprayed over Winnipeg, Manitoba; St. Louis, Missouri; Minneapolis, Minnesota; Fort Wayne, Indiana; the Monocacy River Valley in Maryland; and Leesburg, Virginia. Despite claims of harmlessness, a military report noted respiratory problems.

* In 1955, the Tampa Bay area of Florida experienced a sharp rise in whooping cough cases, including 12 deaths, following a CIA bio-war test whose details are still secret, involving bacteria withdrawn from an Army CBW center.

* From 1956 to 1958, in the poor Black communities of Savannah, Georgia, and Avon Park, Florida, the Army carried out field tests with mosquitos that may have been infected with yellow fever. The insects were released into residential areas from ground level and dropped from planes and helicopters. Many people were swarmed by mosquitos and then developed unknown fevers; some died. After each test, Army agents posing as public health officials photographed and tested victims and then disappeared from town.

* From June 7 to 10, 1966, the Army's Special Operations Division dispensed a bacillus throughout the New York City subway system. The Army's report on the experiment noted the existence of subways in the Soviet Union, Europe, and South America.

* In 1968 and 1969, the CIA experimented with the possibility of poisoning drinking water systems by injecting a chemical substance into the water supply of the Food and Drug Administration building in Washington.

* In 1976, the Humane Society of Utah questioned the mysterious deaths of 50 wild horses who had drank from a spring near the U.S. Army's Dugway Proving Ground, a CBW research center.

* One highly suspicious incident that could bear scrutiny as a possible CBW test is the 1978 "mass suicide" of 900 Black North Americans in Jonestown, Guyana. [Footnote: John Judge, a Philadelphia activist who has extensively investigated the incident, notes that many of the drugs found there were the same ones tested under MKULTRA. The Guyanese Chief Medical Examiner testified in court that 80 percent of the bodies he examined showed signs of forcible injections. Jim Jones, the self-proclaimed leader of the "People's Temple" which moved to Guyana from San Francisco, and one of his aides, had CIA connections. The father of Jonestown leader Larry Layton was head of CBW Research at the Army's Dugway Proving Gounds in the 1950s. The elder Layton admitted contributing $25,000 to the People's Temple. According to Judge, "Public exposure (in the mid-1970s) of experiments in U.S. prisons and mental institutions was, in all likelihood, a major impetus for relocating this testing to the jungles of a virtually unknown country."]

CovertAction Information Bulletin, Number 28 (Summer 1987), pp. 34, 37-40.



And here is a link to some very good information on the subject of not only AIDS but the Gulf War Syndrome as well:
http://www.all-natural.com/riley.html

[Satori]

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthr...9242#post69242