Why is it that when Oriental folk say ASIAN

[bossel]

can't see the problem

Both Asia & Orient originally mean virtually the same: "where the sun rises".
The usage all over the world of course differs. If you, Keeni, don't feel comfortable with this term, simply don't use it. But since a lot of people here are not from the US (BTW, are you sure it has a negative connotation in all of the US, or just in some parts of society?) & they have their own interpretations, why shouldn't they use the term Oriental?

BTW, although it can be used for the Far-East, in Germany the connotation of Orient is usually Near-/Mid-East, e.g. Sheherazade's stories are "1001 stories from the Orient".

Speaking of ethnocentrism: in Europe there is also the term Occident to describe Europe or the "Western" world. What would you make of that, Keeni?

 

[kirei_na_me]

It seems the U.S. is the only country where there's a stigma attached to the term "Oriental". All of my European friends use Oriental when talking about someone who's Chinese, Japanese, Korean, etc. Also, every native Japanese person I know and all of the native Chinese people I know don't have a problem with being referred to as Oriental. In fact, I've had some tell me that they'd rather be referred to as Oriental rather than Asian, because Asian is too broad of a term. I will also add that I was surprised to know that, because being American, I thought they would be offended by someone using "Oriental" to describe them.

 

[Keeni84]

Both Asia & Orient originally mean virtually the same: "where the sun rises".QUOTE]

So what? Good info, but so what?

The usage all over the world of course differs. If you, Keeni, don't feel comfortable with this term, simply don't use it. But since a lot of people here are not from the US (BTW, are you sure it has a negative connotation in all of the US, or just in some parts of society?) & they have their own interpretations, why shouldn't they use the term Oriental?

Of course the usage differs, as Maciamo has already explained countless times. And I don't need you to tell me what words I can and cannot use, thank you. If I don't feel comfortable using a certain word, then I won't use it. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure that out. And I also never said that Maciamo or anyone else could not use the word. That word is socially acceptable and doesn't have as many negative connotations in their society as it does in American society. Scroll and reread, please. You might pick up a few things.

It's funny because "Oriental" only seems to have a negative connotation in North America. I really don't see why.

THIS is what I have been replying to for the past two posts. I'm merely trying to explain to Maciamo (and others) WHY I don't use the word, and to fill in any areas that they might not understand, like WHY it has negative connotations in America. Perhaps you skipped this part, no?

Of course "Oriental" isn't going to be offensive in some circles in America. Do you know how many friends I've met in college who've called me "Colored" or "Negro" and I had to tell them to stop calling me that? It was perfectly acceptable for them to call me that, because in their cirlces, there wasn't anything offensive about it. They had no idea that the term was offensive. There are even Asian American/Asian folks who don't mind being called Oriental, and I respect that. However, I must respect that fact that many more Asian Americans don't like the word at all.

I inquired, and it appears that even in Arabic, "Middle-East" translates literally as "Middle-East", even though most Arabs live there. It has become a political symbol. Anyway, there need to be a point of reference if you want to talk of east and west in a spheric world. The internationally accepted standard in matter of time and world maps is the Greenwich Meridian (so based on Central East London). This Euro-centric vision has become a world standard whether you like it or not.QUOTE]

That's what I've been saying this whole time. "Whether I like it or not"? Whoa, calm down. There is no other word in my language for "Middle Eastern" except "Arab" which is not accurate of the people living there, however there IS a more accurate and less-offensive word for Oriental which is Asian. Just like "Africa" means "dust" and was in reference to Tunisia, not Africa the continent, I'd much rather say "Africa" than the Dark Continent.

Speaking of ethnocentrism: in Europe there is also the term Occident to describe Europe or the "Western" world. What would you make of that, Keeni?

Just so you know, I don't use "Western" either, because it also carries an ethnocentric lable compatible to "white". And as we all know, all Westerners aren't white. But that's another subject that doesn't really deal with this conversation.

I mean...just do a search on Yahoo! or something. Look up Asia/Asian then look up Orient/Oriental. Chances are for Asia you'll actually get something about the people and culture and for Orient/Oriental you get like history and rugs and artifacts or something.

Originally Posted by Keeni84

And second of all, are you saying that "all asians being good at math" is an objective fact? Because if you are, you're worse off than I thought!!


Don't misunderstand me. I never said I agreed with that. What I mean is that saying that "one person" is good at maths is a measurable and objective fact, while the other was not measurable and only based on one's imaginary. This said, one's imaginary can ebglobe a whole country or continent (even though it is very approximate, it's just a general impression one person has in their mind), but it would be absurd to classify a huge group of people on objective critria such as maths

So you think it's okay for me to say that all French culture is contradictory and strange? Or that France is a nasty, dirty country? That's my own personal opinion, that I get from French folks, and it's okay, because it's my "general impression" that I as "one person" have in my mind. What if your perception of the Orient (or someone's perception) of the Orient was not so good? What if Orient did not conjure up and image of "romance" but insteand one of savagery? Would it be okay, then?

I'm not saying you can't use Orient or Oriental. The word, in your country, does not seem to have negative connotations (from what I hear from you).

ANYWAY, you guys can say what you want, when you want it. For a Japanese board, I expected a little more understanding, and a lot less "preaching" but it's cool. I'm done with it, because it seems people would rather argue about Germanic endings and English etymology than the cultural implications of a word.

 

[Keeni84]

It seems the U.S. is the only country where there's a stigma attached to the term "Oriental". All of my European friends use Oriental when talking about someone who's Chinese, Japanese, Korean, etc. Also, every native Japanese person I know and all of the native Chinese people I know don't have a problem with being referred to as Oriental. In fact, I've had some tell me that they'd rather be referred to as Oriental rather than Asian, because Asian is too broad of a term.

Isn't that the point? The word has negative connotations in the US. I'm not talking about any other place. I'm talking about America. "Colored" is still an acceptable word to use in SA but it's not in the United States. Why? Because there is more negativity attached to the word.

Just like with Oriental. Maybe in Europe and other places around the world, Oriental does not have as much negative baggage as it does in the United States. It's not just about what the word literally means. It's the negative connotations of the word!

 

[kirei_na_me]

I was just pointing out what I have heard directly from native Japanese or Chinese people. That's it. I wasn't saying it's right or wrong. It depends on whatever individual you're talking to and whether they believe it's negative or not. My last line says that I thought it was negative too and was suprised to hear that a lot of them didn't find it offensive. I'm always the diplomat...

 

[Keeni84]

Yes, Kirei_na_me: I agree. I guess, in so many words, that's what I have been trying to say too!

ありがとうございます！

 

[bossel]

easily offended, are you?

And I don't need you to tell me what words I can and cannot use, thank you.

Well, you're welcome. :bluush: Sorry, but it was not my intention to tell you what you can or can't say. Where I come from the expression I used simply means something like "there is no problem for you since you don't need to use the word". Anyway, "you don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure that out."

Of course "Oriental" isn't going to be offensive in some circles in America.

Why then say that it's outdated in America, when it's still in use? Some kind of "ethnocentrism" on your part?

there IS a more accurate and less-offensive word for Oriental which is Asian.

I think, the discussion showed that it is not "more accurate".

Just like "Africa" means "dust"

Interesting that you know that, even linguists don't seem able to agree on one origin. For what I know, at least 7 versions are possible. Never heard of the dust-version, though.

I mean...just do a search on Yahoo! or something. Look up Asia/Asian then look up Orient/Oriental. Chances are for Asia you'll actually get something about the people and culture and for Orient/Oriental you get like history and rugs and artifacts or something.

Guess what, I did a little Google search & it's a bit more diverse than you think.
Anyway, that would be a rather strange divide between Asian for culture & Oriental for history.

rather argue about [...] English etymology than the cultural implications of a word.

But etymology is part of the cultural implications, it can show the root where implications derived from.

 

[Hachiko]

A pointer.

IMHO, I take the term "Asian" as a general reference whose blood traces to any race originating on the Asian subcontinent. MostWestern socities break Asians into "Middle Easterners," "Indians/South Asians," "Siberians," "Southeast Asians," etc. or by their national race: Chine, Japanese, etc.

Just to point out to everyone here, Europeans can, if you go back, also be deemed Asian as well.

The phrase "Caucasian" refers generally to Europeans, but these Europeans moved from the Transcaucasian nations (Armenia, Azerbaijan, and Georgia), and moved to the European continent. the Caucasus region is in Asia, hence, they can be traced to Asian origin.

Here's an article from Wikipedia.

Also to note is this site:
The Origin or Race

 

[Keeni84]

Ha ha ha.

Am I easily offended? No. If you read my posts from the first to the last you'll see a general progression of my just getting more and more annoyed. So maybe that little tidbit at the top should read "Annoyed easily, aren't you?"

Sorry, but it was not my intention to tell you what you can or can't say. Where I come from the expression I used simply means something like "there is no problem for you since you don't need to use the word". Anyway, "you don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure that out."

Where I come from "If you don't feel comfortable with the word, then don't use it" means what it says. Someone telling you what to do. You dont have to be a rocket scientist to figure that we're probably not going to agree on this, either.

Why then say that it's outdated in America, when it's still in use? Some kind of "ethnocentrism" on your part?

I don't think this line makes very much sense. What would I have to be ethnocentric about? What? And how does saying "Oriental" is outdated mean that I am being ethnocentric? I guess I'm being ethnocentric when I say that Negro is an outdated term as well. Damn, I'm so ethnocentric it's unbelievable!

there IS a more accurate and less-offensive word for Oriental which is Asian. I think, the discussion showed that it is not "more accurate".

LOL. But you didn't say "less offensive". Is there a reson for that?

Interesting that you know that, even linguists don't seem able to agree on one origin. For what I know, at least 7 versions are possible. Never heard of the dust-version, though.

I don't "know" it's just one of the many words over the years for Africa. It was one example. And there are probably more than seven versions anyway.

Anyway, I did your Google search and found that YES, you are correct. There is diversity within the search. However, I searched on Yahoo! and there was the divide that I talked about. Very interesting! See, it takes conversations like this to find out stuff like that! How very strange!

But etymology is part of the cultural implications, it can show the root where implications derived from.

Yeah, but that's not what we were talking about! The etymology of the word is important, yes, but my central point was that the word itself has taken on negative connotations, more specifically, negative connotations in America!

ANYWAY! I am getting tired of this conversation mainly because I'm probably going to say the same thing over and over again!!!!

 

[bossel]

Where I come from "If you don't feel comfortable with the word, then don't use it" means what it says.

Actually, I usually try to mean what I say, too. I hate having to read between the lines. But sometimes the environment rubs off on me. Sorry.

I don't think this line makes very much sense. What would I have to be ethnocentric about? What? And how does saying "Oriental" is outdated mean that I am being ethnocentric? I guess I'm being ethnocentric when I say that Negro is an outdated term as well. Damn, I'm so ethnocentric it's unbelievable!

You are ethnocentric when you think that your group's view of the word Oriental is representative for all of America, as in "The fact of the matter is, it is outdated in America."
But ethnocentricity is a bad argument, since everybody is ethnocentric in some way. That's the point!

LOL. But you didn't say "less offensive". Is there a reson for that?

Of course. The reason is that there are obviously people who see it as offensive.

The differences between Yahoo & Google are indeed interesting. I wonder why the differing algorithms produce such results.

 

[Maciamo]

So you think it's okay for me to say that all French culture is contradictory and strange? Or that France is a nasty, dirty country? That's my own personal opinion, that I get from French folks, and it's okay, because it's my "general impression" that I as "one person" have in my mind. What if your perception of the Orient (or someone's perception) of the Orient was not so good? What if Orient did not conjure up and image of "romance" but insteand one of savagery? Would it be okay, then?

Yes, that's perfectly alright, as long as it's what you think. It's just your opinion. That doesn't mean it's true or that other people will think the same. You might just make some enemies by saying that France is nasty and dirty (BTW, I am not French), or that the Orient is savage, but at least people understand your impression of that country of region. The problem with "maths" or objective things is that it cannot be an opinion (someone can't decide that Chicago is the capital of the US just because it's their opinion/impression) and it doesn't lead to discussion at all.

Personally, I don't have the impression that the Orient is a romantic or mysterious place. That was just an example to illustrate how some European I know saw it.

As for France being contradictory and strange, which country isn't ?
That could be the start to a new interesting debate : national contradiction. For example, France professes "Liberty, Fraternity and Equality", but it is probably the least egalitarian European country (everything needs to have a hierarchy and society is very elitist).

The US ideal of democracy and freedom is also challenged by a too powerful president (who has all military power and can ignore the Congress), who defends death penalty and claim that gay have no rights to get married. Then what freedom is that not be allowed to drink alcohol before 21 or even 25 in some states, to severely condemn cannabis users, or not be able to travel to Cuba or North Korea (Japanase & European can).

But that's another discussion.

 

[Belle]

just for your information, the turks, russian, saudis, and this ETC of yours are all different races. they are not slant eyed, but they are still in ASIA, hence they are asian.



also, less then a fifth of russia AND turkey is in europe. but officially they are counted as ASIAN countries.

Just so you know Russia is counted as EUROPEAN since the most of the country lies in Europe. I should know i am from Europe.
And your question for why not all of the Asians are called Asians; Well you live in U.S and you see that these 'Slant Eyed' people are in a much bigger majority then the others. In U.K The Indians, the bengals, the pakistanis are considered as asians as they are in majority there this goes for like all over Europe. Like here in Norway half of the bloody country contains ONLY Pakistanis.

 

[bossel]

Just so you know Russia is counted as EUROPEAN since the most of the country lies in Europe. I should know i am from Europe.

I'm from Europe, too. Doesn't mean very much, does it?

Russia is mostly counted as European not because most of the country lies in Europe (the bigger part, roughly 3/4, is Asian) but because most of the population lives in the European part & the capital is there, too.

 

[Minty]

err the countries you listed are oriental as well. oriental is just another word for eastern. anyhow i persoanlly dont really think of the middle eastern or former USSR people as asian either. the term asian to me means the mogoloid race. while turks, russians, saudis, iraqis and the rest may be from asia they arent mogoloid. so the other people i would call by their country name or if i didnt know that by their region. so saudis, iraqis, kuwaitis, etc would be middle eastern. if i didnt know their country

Err Persians used to be called Asians in the Alexandra times. Indians are not necessarily Mongoloid they can be Caucasoid too.

In France, the word "Oriental" means Middle Eastern. This is funny how different the meaning this word is in British English, their "Oriental" is East
Asians like Chinese, Japanese, and Koreans.

In Australia, the word "Oriental" is not used on people. All East, South East and South Asians are Asians. But, I have seen the word "Oriental" used as a flavour of the Asian foods sold in Australian supermarkets.

I never heard of Orientals being an offensive word. I mean if Western people want to be rude to us East Asians they would call us "gooks."

 

[No-name]

In the US, Oriental is very antiquated-- like calling African Americans "colored." Asian is the more current term. I guess in that respect we are similar to Australia. Oriental refers to rugs and food. Asian refers to everyon from the continent... although Middle Easterners and East Indians are usually not called asians...

I guess it is not too offensive. I can think of several terms that are more offensive.

 

[Minty]

I see, then in the US I have to be very careful in the choice of words I use, I always thought African American is an ok term but apparently not.:bluush:

 

[No-name]

African American is the current prefered term, and I see nothing wrong with refering to a person as Black... (a couple of friends- a teacher and an aide are from Nigeria, they are African or Black, but not African American.)

My wife is Creole. She is neither "Black" nor "African American"... according to Creoles, they are special- a tri-racial isolate of French, Indian and Black and kinda snooty and aristocratic about the whole race thing.

 

[Frosty_Chateux]

Calling an Iraqi an Asian is like calling an Egyptian an African. They are both technically correct but mean nothing because they fundamentally share more with each other than they do with the majority of the other nations in their respective continents. MENA is a transcontinental designation precisely because of this. Separate both from sub-Saharan Africans and Far Eastern Asians (China and India and their proximities).