Slave descendants to sue Lloyds

[Rachel]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3578863.stm

I can describe Mr Edward Fagan with one word : MUPPET.
The Nazi gold case was still living memory, but this !
Its an intresting idea, but I can tell you now he doesn't stand a chance in hell. In fact I have to say its suicide.
I'm sorry but you do NOT F**k with a institution like Loyds and expect to get away with it.
What a MUPPET!

[Maciamo]

Anyway, how could that guy get money in repair for other people which he has never met !?

Have you seen the article (also on BBC news, but can't find it in the search) about some Africans who want to sue the British government for violence in their country during the colonisation. It's like a Muslim suing the Pope for not believing in Allah ! Frankly, Africans could start doing the cleaning at home before making such bold statements.

[Rachel]

Yes I saw it, pretty mad.

[kirei_na_me]

It's just ridiculous. That's the only thing I can come up with. Ridiculous.

[Frank D. White]

They have received land, money, and tribal special privileges in their battles. I think other groups see their success and say why not us, let's SUE !!

Frank

[bossel]

I heard that a tribe (the Hereros, now in Namibia) who suffered from the Germans during colonialism, ~100 years ago, also wants to sue. Though I see the wrongs done to them I can't understand why they want compensation for something done to their ancestors. If somebody who suffered is still alive, OK, but the great grandchildren?
The worrying thing is that these cases may even succeed in the US. Where would that stop? Would I be able to sue the Italians because the Romans killed some of my ancestors 2000 years ago?

[Winter]

bossel: Isnt this against the Geneva convention? I mean, unless there were war crimes comitted, there is no justice to grant out. Also...if we are talking about the law, in accordance to American law, bringing someone to justice of a crime that wasnt protected by the law defies the loverly 4th-5th amendment under the exclusionary rule. Too bad all countries arent protected by that law....hehehe

As for the reparations....evidently I'm the only one who doesnt think its that ridiculous. Maybe a little extreme, and possibly far-fetched, but not lunacy.

[bossel]

bossel: Isnt this against the Geneva convention? I mean, unless there were war crimes comitted, there is no justice to grant out.

Actually, it was probably a war crime according to modern standards. The Hereros rebelled, lost the ensuing "war" & the survivors fled into the desert. German troops controlled water holes & desert borders in order to let all Hereros die in the desert. But this happened against the will of the governor & finally the German emperor directly ordered the commanding officer to stop. 70 % of all Hereros are said to have died.

I just read that they not only want to sue, they already filed a law suit in Washington, D.C., in 2001. The "Herero Peoples Reparation Corporation" wants to get 2 billion dollar.

evidently I'm the only one who doesnt think its that ridiculous

What's ridiculous are those slave descendants who want to sue Lloyds for insuring slave ships. They said that they traced their DNA to slaves who are known to be transported on those ships.

Apart from the question of how much guilt an insurance company could have in this case: What about "white" people who have traces of this DNA? There are so many mongrels in the US that the courts would have to decide which amount of DNA is enough for getting compensation.

[Maciamo]

I heard that a tribe (the Hereros, now in Namibia) who suffered from the Germans during colonialism, ~100 years ago, also wants to sue. Though I see the wrongs done to them I can't understand why they want compensation for something done to their ancestors. If somebody who suffered is still alive, OK, but the great grandchildren?
The worrying thing is that these cases may even succeed in the US. Where would that stop? Would I be able to sue the Italians because the Romans killed some of my ancestors 2000 years ago?

I am going to sue all Africans nations because I was told, generation after generation for about 1 million year that some of them once killed an ancestor of mine when we were still in Africa. Had they killed him before he had engrossed my female ancestor at that time, I wouldn't be here now, so that was something personally life-threatening for me. Of course I have no official record or document to prove the facts, nor my relation that ancestor (who maybe wasn't my ancestor after all), but as anyone can sue anyone at the other end of the world for things that happen centuries ago, why not.

[Keeni84]

You guys may take this as some sort of simple silly little thing that people are doing, but you have to realize what it's like for us, the descendants of those slaves.

You guys may think that colonization and slavery was a grievance committed against my ancestors, and not me, so I shouldn't be worried about it. Let me tell you something. I am affected everyday by slavery, and the subsequent racism that followed slavery. What is my last name? What is my country of origin? Where do my people come from? What was their original tongue? Why was I born with curly black hair and brown skin, my mother red hair and brown eyes, my grandmother blond hair and blue eyes, yet we are all considered "black"?

Do you know? I certainly don't. And it kind of pisses me off that you guys have some sort of blatant disreguard for the ancestors of these people. You think I'm not affected? You think black people are just A-OKAY, thrown into America through racism and discrimination, without a heritage, culture or homeland? Yeah, and I thought you were enlightened people.

[Keeni84]

God, do you people even know what it's like to live in the shadow of colonialism and racism and all these things that comes from being the ancestor of a slave? It's not romantic, it's not funny, it's not cool, it's a really terrible feeling, and I'm sick of people making light of it, like we aren't affected by this at all.

And if you are an ancestor of a slave---not Roman times, but slavery, within the last 150 years---you would know that it really is a BIG DEAL and you WOULD be affected by it.

[Keeni84]

And I hate these arguements--should I sue because my ancestors were slaves of the Romans 2000 years ago? YES if you feel wronged by those actions and NO ONE had done a damn thing to make things right.

Whatever happened to the forty acres and a mule that was to be granted to freed slaves? How come we can inherit our ancestors DEBTS but we cannot inherit this? THEY PROMISED this to blacks, INSTEAD all they got was sharecropping (another form of slavery) and Jim Crow.

Grr...I am so upset right now, you guys don't understand at all.

[Maciamo]

God, do you people even know what it's like to live in the shadow of colonialism and racism and all these things that comes from being the ancestor of a slave? It's not romantic, it's not funny, it's not cool, it's a really terrible feeling, and I'm sick of people making light of it, like we aren't affected by this at all.

Sorry guy, but I have studied a lot history and I can tell you that not only black slaves were the ones to grieves. Basically most migrants to the US (at the time of the 13 colonies) left Europe because of religious oppression, wars of religion (protestants vs catholics, exterminating each other), Inquisition, etc. So what's worth, being a slave with free food and housing, or being burned at the stake or live in fear to be, because you believe in a slightly different thing than your neighbour ?

And if you are an ancestor of a slave---not Roman times, but slavery, within the last 150 years---you would know that it really is a BIG DEAL and you WOULD be affected by it.

I think that you cannot sue someone who hasn't committed a crime, for something their ancestors did, especially if the plaintiff hasn't suffered the damage him/herself.

Furthermore, as Winter said, there shouldn't be any prosecution for things that happened when there was no law against it. Laws cannot be retroactive, otherwise people would live in fear of doing something that could become ilegal any time in the future. It's like saying that today you can own a gun in the US, but you might be sued for doing so in the future if the law changed, even if you have sold you gun when the law changed. Impossible to live in these conditions.

FYI, white slavery was part and parcel of Ancient Europe. We hear big praise about the Greeks founding the first democracy in the world, but that was only for free men, and they all owned slaves. Ironically, the US that prides itself for being the first "modern democracy" was in exactly the same case as Ancient Greece. But that was accepted as normal at the time, and there were also white slaves in the States : indentured workers, whose status was only slightly better (and sometimes worse) than black slaves.

You should never judge history with today's mores or sensitivity.

[Rachel]

Keeni84 the past is just that 'The Past'. It happened, nothing is ever going to change that no matter how angry you get.
Accept it, move on.
What you CAN change is the future, learn to live for that. Not the past!
This is something I learnt the hard way Keeni.
Its not an easy thing to do, but its worth it in the end.

[Keeni84]

Sorry guy, but I have studied a lot history and I can tell you that not only black slaves were the ones to grieves. Basically most migrants to the US (at the time of the 13 colonies) left Europe because of religious oppression, wars of religion (protestants vs catholics, exterminating each other), Inquisition, etc. So what's worth, being a slave with free food and housing, or being burned at the stake or live in fear to be, because you believe in a slightly different thing than your neighbour ?

You are sick. I'm sorry. You think I'm going to fall into this trap, and debate with you which human injustices are "worse" than others? Sorry guy, it's not going to happen. MY QUALM is not about what was worse, and what wasn't. If you BOTHERED to read my post, I mean ACTUALLY READ IT you would see that my post is NOT about the injustice that African slaves went through, but what their DESCENDANTS are going through. It has NOTHING to do with what you are talking about now.

God. How sick is that to compare slavery to being burned at the stake, and then to ask which is worse? I expected more from you, Maciamo. You guys are really surprising me.

This is the type of stuff I'm talking about. God. READ MACIAMO, I know you're good at it.

I think that you cannot sue someone who hasn't committed a crime, for something their ancestors did, especially if the plaintiff hasn't suffered the damage him/herself.

Did you even read my post? I don't understand. Why are you still talking about getting sued? I don't want to sue anyone. WOW! A black girl who doesn't want monetary reparations! Holy cow! I don't think the case will win, it's nearly impossible, however I feel that cases like this shed light on some of the

"There is no doubt that slavery was a crime against humanity and for a lot of black people the consequences of slavery still exist today."

FYI, white slavery was part and parcel of Ancient Europe. We hear big praise about the Greeks founding the first democracy in the world, but that was only for free men, and they all owned slaves. Ironically, the US that prides itself for being the first "modern democracy" was in exactly the same case as Ancient Greece. But that was accepted as normal at the time, and there were also white slaves in the States : indentured workers, whose status was only slightly better (and sometimes worse) than black slaves.

What does this have to do with my post? Did you even READ my post? I don't get it! My post is not about the treatment of African slaves, or Irish indentured servants, or Roman soldiers. My post was about how I STILL feel the affects of slavery and the subsequent racism that followed, and how people act like I'm out of my mind for saying so. THATS what my post was about.

I don't need a history lesson, I just need you to understand, seriously. But I see I'm out of my league since you're not paying attention to the issue that I'm bringing to the table.

[jeisan]

i'll bite!!
but as im unsure about this keeni, i would like you to explain how the fact that your great great great grandparent(s) were slaves adversly affects your daily life in 21st century america.

also i think people are just getting tired of one group or another dragging up these undead issues, which just won't die. i mean the US has apologized and i believe paid reparations for its involvment in slavery. its like every decade someone has to bring the whole situation up again. imagine if you apologized, tried to make things right and move on only to have your face repeatly rubbed in your past mistake, you apologize again try to make amends only to have the same scenario played out over and over again. after awhile youre gonna get fed up, it gets annoying and old.
i think everyone needs to chill out, be happy to be alive and live for today.

[Rachel]

i think everyone needs to chill out, be happy to be alive and live for today.

Well said jeisan, well said.

[Keeni84]

but as im unsure about this keeni, i would like you to explain how the fact that your great great great grandparent(s) were slaves adversly affects your daily life in 21st century america.

Let me see...

When I think about my ancestry, it stops at America. Does that bother me? Yes. When I talk to my friends, they all say, I have ancestry in England, Ireland and Poland. They take trips to these places, they have the religion, language and history of their ancestors. Do I have that? No. It's kind of like being adopted. You don't know where you are, or where you are from. I love my life, and I love everything in it, but there is still that piece of me that is missing.

When I look in the mirror, I don't look like a typical African person. My grandmother was a black woman, born with blond hair and blue eyes, my mother, with red hair and brown eyes, and I with curly black hair and brown skin. It's strange, these three women, all from the same family, all different yet somehow "black". You don't know how much it irks me to think that my family is a product of rape and enslavement. I don't know, Jeisan, maybe you won't get it, and maybe you will.

During slavery, black men were sold away from families, and women were left to rear them. Slave women reared their daughters strong but didn't do the same with their sons because they knew that they would just be sold anyway, or killed if they got too bold. Now look at the state of black families today. That is STILL the same mentality that holds. It's strange...how people just think that psychological issues like this aren't generational, but they are.

When I lived in Europe, people knew about slavery and asked me about it.

Them:"SO do you know where in Africa you are from?"
Me: "No."
Them: "Cool"/"I think it is so interesting"

I wish there were more black people on this board to help me explain this, because I don't speak for all black people. However, I know there are many who feel the way that I do.

also i think people are just getting tired of one group or another dragging up these undead issues, which just won't die. i mean the US has apologized and i believe paid reparations for its involvment in slavery. its like every decade someone has to bring the whole situation up again. imagine if you apologized, tried to make things right and move on only to have your face repeatly rubbed in your past mistake, you apologize again try to make amends only to have the same scenario played out over and over again. after awhile youre gonna get fed up, it gets annoying and old.

The US has never paid reparations for slavery, and the US has never apologized for slavery. The UN will not consider slavery a violation of human rights, since at the time, it wasn't considered a violation, and most people scoff at the idea of reparations, monetary or not.

Don't I have a right to be upset? I'm sorry, but maybe you guys just wont get it, because I've tried to explain this to other non-black people and they didn't see the point. Should Jewish people whose great-grandparents and grandparents were in the Holocaust just stop caring? No, they shouldn't, and neither should I.

I don't know anyone on this board personally, but I just want to be frank and candid and explain to you guys how I feel about these issues, because it really irks me that everyone claims to be so liberal and open-minded, yet no one can sympathise with a bunch of people who just want what is right, or who have been wronged. I'm sitting here with my mouth open, just thinking about it.

It's unpleasant.

[jeisan]

Let me see...

When I think about my ancestry, it stops at America. Does that bother me? Yes. When I talk to my friends, they all say, I have ancestry in England, Ireland and Poland. They take trips to these places, they have the religion, language and history of their ancestors. Do I have that? No. It's kind of like being adopted. You don't know where you are, or where you are from. I love my life, and I love everything in it, but there is still that piece of me that is missing.

your ancestry doesnt stop in america, it stops in africa. just like mine stops in europe i dont know quite where but it does.

Don't I have a right to be upset? I'm sorry, but maybe you guys just wont get it, because I've tried to explain this to other non-black people and they didn't see the point. Should Jewish people whose great-grandparents and grandparents were in the Holocaust just stop caring? No, they shouldn't, and neither should I.

you have a right to be upset, i just don't know what good it will do. harboring that inside you all your life cant be good though. my grandmother, whos still alive, had to escape nazi germany during the war. but i dont resent the germans nor do i expect anything from them. in fact i actually speak some german. the germans of today know its wrong and had nothing to do with what happened during WWII, and as much as they may want to change what happened they cant, no one can. the same goes for slavery and any other similar issue. throwing money to people who are resentful and complaining about what has happened wont solve the problem, in fact i think such things make it worse, only understanding, mutual respect, and forgivness will hopefully solve these issues.

[Keeni84]

your ancestry doesnt stop in america, it stops in africa. just like mine stops in europe i dont know quite where but it does.

I think this is where you don't understand. Most white people in America know specifically where their ancestors came from. They can have a bond with these people. I do not. I can say, I am from Africa, or West Africa, or Central Africa, but I cannot say where. Our culture was stripped from us, our history and language. You can read in a book and see England, Irish, Chinese, Indian history, and appreciate the culture, or feel a bond because that is where you are from, but unfortunately, I cannot do that.

My grandfather is a Native American, so my history lies in America as well. But what do I know about Native Americans? They went through the same thing as black people---being slaves, having the culture wiped out...I cannot win.

you have a right to be upset, i just don't know what good it will do. harboring that inside you all your life cant be good though. my grandmother, whos still alive, had to escape nazi germany during the war. but i dont resent the germans nor do i expect anything from them. in fact i actually speak some german. the germans of today know its wrong and had nothing to do with what happened during WWII, and as much as they may want to change what happened they cant, no one can. the same goes for slavery and any other similar issue. throwing money to people who are resentful and complaining about what has happened wont solve the problem, in fact i think such things make it worse, only understanding, mutual respect, and forgivness will hopefully solve these issues.

Yes, that's all fine and dandy, but that is not what my post is about. People ACT like other people aren't affected by things that happen in the past. SLAVERY is my past, and I am affected by that everyday. Some people treat me like an inferior because of it, and some people feel sorry for me. I don't want either, I just want people to UNDERSTAND that something like slavery, or being the descendant of a slave doesn't just GO AWAY. The way black people are TODAY is a direct result of slavery. The way we were trained to be animals. Why do you think black people have so many issues? SLAVERY ended ONLY 130 years ago! Segregation ended barely 30 YEARS AGO!

This stuff is not ancient. My mother lived through segregation. Her mother lived through segregation and was the granddaughter of a slave. Can you imagine, being alive, and knowing that your mother's mom was a slave?

Geeze. I'm not asking for sympathy, or pity or anything, JUST UNDERSTANDING that YEAH stuff still affects people, and just because you don't see it doesn't mean it isn't there.

[bossel]

I am affected everyday by slavery, and the subsequent racism that followed slavery.

[...]thrown into America through racism and discrimination, without a heritage, culture or homeland? Yeah, and I thought you were enlightened people.

You are affected by slavery because you get rubbed it in all the time, I think. This is a kind of brainwashing going on, maybe. If people always tell you that you are a victim because your ancestors were, you sooner or later believe it & feel like that.

What is my last name?

I know my last name. So what? Got it from my step-father. I know my biological father's name, nothing else about his family. My ancestors got a lot of different names of which I know only a tiny fraction.
It's just a legal issue, for this shabby beaurocracy wants me to have a last name. Is it important? No way.

What is my country of origin?

From my mother's lineage I know of some French ancestry. Most ancestors are German. So what? Germany is a rather new country, around 133 years. Before that there were a lot of little fiefdoms, kingdoms & whatever. My hometown once even belonged to France for a short while. There was a Roman Empire of German Nation once. A lot of different tribes, Germanic, Celtic, whatever. Not to mention all those wars with foreign troops who left their trace in the local DNA.
Now what is my country of origin?

Where do my people come from? What was their original tongue?

Obviously from a lot of different places: Africa, Europe, America. Can't be much of one original tongue then, must be more like dozens. Languages change over time anyway.
What's the original tongue of those "white" US Americans? They don't have one either.

Why was I born with curly black hair and brown skin, my mother red hair and brown eyes, my grandmother blond hair and blue eyes, yet we are all considered "black"?

You're considered "black" because there seems to be a need to categorize social groups in simple ways (in my regard too simple). I personally would not consider you negroid though. You're a mongrel, as most "black" US Americans are to some degree(I don't have any statistics at hand now, but that's what I remember).

And if you are an ancestor of a slave---not Roman times, but slavery, within the last 150 years---you would know that it really is a BIG DEAL and you WOULD be affected by it.

Here we have the original problem again: time. Why 150 years? Why not 100 or 200, why not 2000?

sue because my ancestors were slaves of the Romans 2000 years ago? YES if you feel wronged by those actions and NO ONE had done a damn thing to make things right.

Nope! You can't hold people responsible for the deeds of their ancestors.


If you or your mother suffer under racism, this is not directly related to slavery, but to racist attitudes (which, then again, probably led to slavery). Since racism is illegal you could of course sue those who discriminate against you. Which leads me back to the original topic: suing Lloyds.

Lloyds is an insurance company & cannot be held responsible for what people did (or do) with ships insured by them. That would be only possible if Lloyds knew & condoned that insured ships were involved in illegal activities. At first slave shipping was a legal business, hence Lloyds couldn't be held responsible anyway. After 1807 slave trade became illegal in Britain (from 1827 even considered piracy, punishable by death) Lloyds would probably have committed a crime if they knew that an insured ship was meant to ship slaves.
If the lawyers can prove that this happened they might have a case. But I doubt that this could be brought before modern courts, for probably being time-barred.


BTW, Keeni: Maybe you should read Jeisan's post again.

[Keeni84]

Bossel:

You are affected by slavery because you get rubbed it in all the time, I think. This is a kind of brainwashing going on, maybe. If people always tell you that you are a victim because your ancestors were, you sooner or later believe it & feel like that.

I don't think of myself as a victim. I am trying to display how I am affected by slavery in every day life. Being affected negatively by something does not make you a "victim".

I read your post and all you seem to be doing is to explain WHY the things that affect me exist. That is NOT the point. I appreciate you explaining these things, however they STILL affect me. That was the point of my post.

And if you are an ancestor of a slave---not Roman times, but slavery, within the last 150 years---you would know that it really is a BIG DEAL and you WOULD be affected by it.

I just wanted to make it relevant to what I was trying to bring to the table, but sure, someone who had ancestors as slaves of the Romans COULD be affected by it. I don't know. However I've never met a person like that. I've met more people affected by modern day slavery (within the last 200 years).

Nope! You can't hold people responsible for the deeds of their ancestors.

I'm not trying to hold anyone responsible. (emphasis on anyone). All I'm saying is if you feel personally wronged, you have the right to sue. It doesn't matter if it makes it to court, or if you win, or whatever. You have that right.

BTW, Keeni: Maybe you should read Jeisan's post again.

I did read his post again, but I didn't see the point. What am I missing?

[Mandylion]

I can understand your frustration Keeni84, if I may presume to say so. You have had a unique experience and I don�t assume I know what you have been through and what you will in the future. But being a minority in any culture brings with it challenges. If my wife and I ever have children, high up on our list of goals as parents is to instill a sense of pride in that child�s heritage and ancestry. Somehow not being able to achieve that goal is one of my major concerns for fatherhood. I can appreciate what loosing ones cultural heritage, or not knowing what it is to begin with, might be like.

She has a right to be pissed. As we can see by this thread, all of us place different stock in our ancestries and heritages. Just because some of us might not have a strong desire for our own past doesn�t mean we should begrudge someone else�s search for their own.

However, I do not agree with the Lloyds case. But perhaps for different reasons than some here. I don�t think it is stupid, but I fail to see what doing so will solve.

In short, can any amount of money really help define or bring back a cultural identity or sense of self? If the Lloyds issue is not about money, what is it about? Will an apology really empower descendants of slaves to worker even harder to address social wrongs? Will it really make everyone else see things in a different way?

I don't see what suing Lloyds is going to achieve in mending a sense of cultural identity. Other people don�t get it, for whatever reason, and then they criticize the action. Then suddenly it is an issue of us vs. them - again. This is the same dance that I think has held back advances in relations for generations (I�m speaking generally here � I know Keeni84 and many others are not out for monetary gain).

While I don�t agree with suing Lloyds, I can understand how losing, or never clearly having a sense of cultural identity would be frustrating. Of course it is natural to express such frustrations against the group that deprived you of that right. However, taking something away doesn�t always mean it is still there to give back. I think the black community, and minority communities everywhere, need to take charge in finding, reconstructing, or inventing a cultural identity if that is what the situation demands. That is something only you can do for yourselves. Misdirected anger and frustration � in this case suing Lloyds � only fosters hard feelings and division for all parties involved.

Not a Christian and I am selectivly quoting but...sometimes they get it right;)
DEU 24:16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

[Mandylion]

All I'm saying is if you feel personally wronged, you have the right to sue. It doesn't matter if it makes it to court, or if you win, or whatever. You have that right.

Having a right to sue also means using that right responsibly. If a group is going to use that right to bring attention to an issue that no one has the power to fix/set right, I think that group needs to be very careful that their actions don't backfire and leave everyone with a bad taste in their mouth. Doing so can actual set a movement back.

These types of court actions are political (an not in an election sense but the wider meaning of the word) as much as anything, so people should not get upset when the repercussions are equally political in nature.

[bossel]

Well, I can't take away your feelings & I can't really understand them. Simple fact. Yes, you seem affected, but I doubt that you're affected by slavery. Racism, yeah, but slavery is too far-fetched for the feelings you show. Making this connection is either pure show (no offence, I don't think this is true in your case) or imposed by some sort of brainwashing.

My explanations, what Maciamo said & Jeisan's experience should have shown you that there is nothing oh so exceptional to your situation. Yeah, your ancestors suffered. So did the ancestors of most people. You don't know certain things about your ancestry. Neither do most people in the world.

Regarding Jeisan, he can probably explain it best himself. But what I mean is: Don't you think that he feels the effects of what happened to his family? It's much closer (in time & degree of kinship) to him than slavery to you.
I could understand if Jeisan showed the strong feelings you seem to have. Just like you he is not directly affected, for he probably grew up in the present situation. But he knows from the 1st-hand experience of his grandmother.