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Thread: German for Starters

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lina Inverse
    Nope, that's not valid. In both cases, the 'ch' is clearly not pronounced as 'k' - as long as you don't come from the Nether-Rhine, that is :baka:
    Which shows, that even I can still learn something about German. First I thought, "Oh, she's from the Ruhrgebiet! That's the reason." But then I looked it up in the Duden & you're right.
    This also shows that everyday language in Germany is not the same as High German.


    Clearly, this isn't true for all dialects, only for a few, most notably Plautdietsch (Low German), Frisian and Bavarian.
    My argument related to you talking about Bavarian being unintelligible. Most dialects are unintelligible to those who only speak High German, except for the regions that constituted its birth area.
    German is not really a language, but a dialect continuum. No matter which dialect you speak, it is pretty much unintelligible to all others (depending on the distance, naturally). This continuum has no clear boundaries between dialects, eg. the place I come from is in a transition zone from Ripuarian to Low Saxon (although according to your link, we would actually be Low Saxon), the dialect has features of both.

    Furthermore, in linguistics there is actually no clear distinction between dialects & languages, even here the boundaries are blurry. You will find a lot of differing definitions. Distinctions are often more politically motivated than scientific.


    Hate to tell you, but your pronunciation scheme is off by a good measure
    I'll give a proper one below:
    Actually, Jeisan's scheme may not correspond 100% to Standard German pronunciation (neither does yours, BTW), but it's a good starting point for native English speakers. You seem quite motivated to teach German, but I think you want too much too quickly.


    BTW, Schlüpfer? Do they actually say this in the Ruhrgebiet? Seems a bit old-fashioned. I would call it Slip or Unterhose. :hat:

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    lina, i know they are abit off, its hard to learn a language without being able to hear it. the main purpose of the alphabet bit was to get people to say the letters at least somewhat simliar to how they're said, get a basic idea of how it sounds. or at least how it sounded to me, a native english speaker, when i was first learning anyway. as with most things start small and build your way up, language is certainly not something you can just jump right into.

    Bossel, danke schön.

    common verb conjugations

    HAVE - HABEN
    i have - ich habe
    you have - du hast
    he/she/it has - er/sie/es hat
    we have - wir haben
    they have - sie haben
    you (formal) - Sie haben
    you (plural) - Ihr habt

    BE - SEIN
    i am - ich bin
    you are - du bist
    he/she/it is - er/sie/es ist
    we are - wir sind
    they are - sie sind
    you (formal) - Sie sind
    you (plural) - Ihr seid
    Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bossel
    My argument related to you talking about Bavarian being unintelligible. Most dialects are unintelligible to those who only speak High German, except for the regions that constituted its birth area.
    German is not really a language, but a dialect continuum. No matter which dialect you speak, it is pretty much unintelligible to all others (depending on the distance, naturally). This continuum has no clear boundaries between dialects, eg. the place I come from is in a transition zone from Ripuarian to Low Saxon (although according to your link, we would actually be Low Saxon), the dialect has features of both.

    Furthermore, in linguistics there is actually no clear distinction between dialects & languages, even here the boundaries are blurry. You will find a lot of differing definitions. Distinctions are often more politically motivated than scientific.
    Well, I just wanted to express that the dialects are varying in different degrees from Standard High German, and while some are still intelligible to someone speaking High German, some others (especially Bavarian) are not.


    Quote Originally Posted by bossel
    BTW, Schlüpfer? Do they actually say this in the Ruhrgebiet? Seems a bit old-fashioned. I would call it Slip or Unterhose. :hat:
    I would rather call "Unterhose" extremely antiquitated. Only my grandparents would use such a very old-fashioned word anymore.
    "Schlüpfer" is the most common term for it and the most broadly used one. In a department store, you'll practically always find "Schlüpfer" as well. In a few cases, you might also find "Slips", but not very often, and then exclusively referring to woman's underwear.

    @jeisan
    Yes, it might sound different if you hear it the first time as a native American
    I recommend you to take a look at the Leo site, which also has pronunciation files (wav sounds) for the German words. Here is the result page for "Schlüpfer", click on the after the word to hear the pronunciation:
    Leo - Schlüpfer

    I already listed the conjugation of the auxiliary verbs (haben+sein) in my first post in this thread...

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    hahahaha i missed that bit
    well as this is your native language youre bound to be more on the ball about teaching it than i am. hell i dont even remember all the "the" forms anymore

    interesting site lina, thanks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lina Inverse
    I would rather call "Unterhose" extremely antiquitated. Only my grandparents would use such a very old-fashioned word anymore.
    "Schlüpfer" is the most common term for it and the most broadly used one. In a department store, you'll practically always find "Schlüpfer" as well. In a few cases, you might also find "Slips", but not very often, and then exclusively referring to woman's underwear.
    Sorry, but this time you are wrong (or maybe not, who knows what's going on in the Ruhrpott). What I actually associate Schlüpfer with are those underpants my grandma would wear. Slip is definitely used for men's pants as well. Unterhose may be a bit old-fashioned but is still in use, though maybe more in my social class (me being a Prolo [a pleb]) .

    From Duden Universalwörterbuch:
    Schlüp|fer, der; -s, - (veraltend): 1. <oft auch im Pl. mit singularischer Bed.> Unterhose mit kurzen Beinen, bes. für Damen u. Kinder




    Quote Originally Posted by jeisan
    well as this is your native language youre bound to be more on the ball about teaching it than i am. hell i dont even remember all the "the" forms anymore
    Actually, being a native does not make you a good teacher. I would advise all who start to learn a new language to do the first steps with an experienced teacher who has the same mother tongue as you. Once you know the basics, it's best to go to a country where the language you learn is spoken.
    But always be careful in choosing a language school or teacher.

    If you learn just for fun or to refresh your knowledge, what we do here may be good enough, though.

    Two more links for learning German:
    http://www2.goethe.de/z/50/linaleo/start2.htm
    Beginners' course for self learners from the Goethe Institut

    http://www.dw-world.de/english/0,336...-0-0-S,00.html
    German courses from the Deutsche Welle, beginners/intermediate/business, with audio files. They also have online radio & TV.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bossel
    Sorry, but this time you are wrong (or maybe not, who knows what's going on in the Ruhrpott). What I actually associate Schlüpfer with are those underpants my grandma would wear. Slip is definitely used for men's pants as well. Unterhose may be a bit old-fashioned but is still in use, though maybe more in my social class (me being a Prolo [a pleb]) .

    From Duden Universalwörterbuch:
    Schlüp|fer, der; -s, - (veraltend): 1. <oft auch im Pl. mit singularischer Bed.> Unterhose mit kurzen Beinen, bes. für Damen u. Kinder
    I don't know what sort of weird "Duden" you claim to have there, but it clearly differs from mine which neither says that it would be outdated (which it clearly isn't), nor that it is especially for Ladies and children (which it isn't either). I checked back with the online version at xipolis.net, and it's not mentioned there either:

    Schlüp|fer, der; -s, -: 1. <oft auch im Pl. mit singularischer Bed.> Unterhose mit kurzen Beinen
    Quelle: Duden: Das große Wörterbuch der deutschen Sprache in 10 Bänden. 3., völlig neu bearbeitete und erweiterte Auflage. Mannheim, Leipzig, Wien, Zürich: Dudenverlag 1999.

    I don't want to insinuate anything, but it seems that a certain someone added these things so that he looks good

    Netlexion.de says that it's simply the German equivalent for the English "slip":
    http://www.net-lexikon.de/Slip.html

    Unter einem Slip, dt. Schlüpfer, versteht man eine Unterhose oder Badehose, die ohne Beinansatz geschnitten ist.

    Knapper geschnittene Slips bezeichnet man als Sportslips.

    Bis in die 70er Jahre des 20. Jahrhunderts trugen Männer meist weiße Doppelripp-Slips mit Eingriff. Diese wurden dann durch Feinripp-Slips mit Eingriff, die häufig auch farbig (meist hellblau oder beige) und/oder bedruckt waren sowie durch bunte Sportslips ohne Eingriff abgelöst.

    Ab den 80er Jahren kamen vermehrt Boxershorts auf den Markt, in den 90ern Retropants.

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    I still remember the first day of class in high school German in 1978.

    Was machst du heute? Ich ube geige.

    Wohin geht Peter? An den see.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lina Inverse
    I don't want to insinuate anything, but it seems that a certain someone added these things so that he looks good
    Well, you are insinuating something & I'm pretty pissed about it. You're the 1st one I gave a bad reputation point.

    My quote is from the Duden Universalwörterbuch, part of PC-Bibliothek 2, Copyright 1993-2000 Bibliographisches Institut & F.A. Brockhaus AG.

    The quote is without any addition, but I left out the following:
    "2. bequem geschnittener, sportlicher Herrenmantel mit großen, tiefen Armlöchern;

    (c) Dudenverlag"

    As you see, this is not related to the slip-part, & the copyright appears automatically when copying text from the PC-Bibliothek to the clipboard.

    bes. (besonders = especially/particularly) doesn't mean usage in exclusively one way, only that usage is mainly like that.

    Maybe in other dictionaries the text of the entry for Schlüpfer varies, but the one I quoted is exactly according to my experience with the word. As I said, maybe the Ruhrpott has a different view of the world.


    Please refrain in future from "not insinuating" that I'm a liar or cheater!

    Quote Originally Posted by Golgo_13
    I still remember the first day of class in high school German in 1978.

    Was machst du heute? Ich ube geige.

    Wohin geht Peter? An den see.
    3 little mistakes:
    Ich übe Geige.
    An den See.

    Nouns are always written with an initial capital letter.

    If you are not able to write Umlaute because of your hard- or software, you can simply write them as follows:

    ä - ae
    ö - oe
    ü - ue

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    Quote Originally Posted by bossel
    Well, you are insinuating something & I'm pretty pissed about it. You're the 1st one I gave a bad reputation point.

    My quote is from the Duden Universalwörterbuch, part of PC-Bibliothek 2, Copyright 1993-2000 Bibliographisches Institut & F.A. Brockhaus AG.

    The quote is without any addition, but I left out the following:
    "2. bequem geschnittener, sportlicher Herrenmantel mit großen, tiefen Armlöchern;

    (c) Dudenverlag"

    As you see, this is not related to the slip-part, & the copyright appears automatically when copying text from the PC-Bibliothek to the clipboard.

    bes. (besonders = especially/particularly) doesn't mean usage in exclusively one way, only that usage is mainly like that.

    Maybe in other dictionaries the text of the entry for Schlüpfer varies, but the one I quoted is exactly according to my experience with the word. As I said, maybe the Ruhrpott has a different view of the world.

    Please refrain in future from "not insinuating" that I'm a liar or cheater!
    Well, if you really didn't add anything about it, you should have a clear consience and absolutely no reason to throw a fit about it... if you can do that, so can I
    Apparently the electronic "Unversalwörterbuch" differs somewhat from the more precise "Duden in 10 Bänden" edition, probably due to different people working on it coming from different regions of Germany, having different opinions about how certain words are used... who knows.
    What you named under 2. is also in my Duden version, but since it didn't partain to the intended meaning, I left it out.
    I've never heard anyone referring to a "Schlüper" as some sort of mantle...

    @Golgo 13
    The cpitalization scheme differs somewhat from English. While in English, only few things are capitalized (beginning of a sentence, names, nationality references, "I"), in German, there are also nouns always capitalized. However, in turn, neither "I" ("ich" in German) nor nationality references are capitalized.

    the German athlete -> der deutsche Athlet
    the Italian noodles -> die italienischen Nudeln
    the Japanese house -> das japanische Haus

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    Can you guys argue in German so the rest of us don't have to understand?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Golgo_13
    Can you guys argue in German so the rest of us don't have to understand?
    Well, I think there is nothing to add to this "Schlüpfer" debate, so let's get back to business.

    So you learned German in High school? For how many years?

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    I took Spanish for 3 years in Junior high and 2 years in high school, then had a year of German in high school. I recently contacted my former German teacher, Herr Schwagermann, by e-mail, and after over 20 years he still remembered me.

    I got to a point where I could read Franz Kafka's "Die Verwandlung" (spell?) in German, but now I've forgotten almost all that I learned. I still remember much of my Spanish because I'm exposed to it quite a bit here in Los Angeles.

    It's funny how when some of my Jewish friends speak in Yiddish I recognize some German words in them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Golgo_13
    I took Spanish for 3 years in Junior high and 2 years in high school, then had a year of German in high school. I recently contacted my former German teacher, Herr Schwagermann, by e-mail, and after over 20 years he still remembered me.

    I got to a point where I could read Franz Kafka's "Die Verwandlung" (spell?) in German, but now I've forgotten almost all that I learned. I still remember much of my Spanish because I'm exposed to it quite a bit here in Los Angeles.

    It's funny how when some of my Jewish friends speak in Yiddish I recognize some German words in them.
    Yes, it's "Die Verwandlung".
    Are there living that much Spaniards in LA?

    Concerning Yiddish, no wonder - it's also a Germanic language and very close to German, actually much closer than any other Germanic language (English, Dutch, Norse languages).
    It would still be even much closer to German if it wouldn't have been for the Third Reich. Most speakers of the Yiddish dialect that was closest to German have been killed, and among the others a trend started to de-Germanize their language somewhat, although that didn't go very far.
    Here's a link if you want to know more: Eydes Jiddisch

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lina Inverse
    Are there living that much Spaniards in LA?
    Not Spaniards from Spain per se but millions of Spanish-speaking immigrants from Mexico, Guatemala, El Salvador, etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Golgo_13
    Not Spaniards from Spain per se but millions of Spanish-speaking immigrants from Mexico, Guatemala, El Salvador, etc.
    Really? What I heard about it is that most of them come to New Mexico (hence the name), and a good amount of them also come to Texas, but Californa? That's news to me. Ok, it's not that far... but wouldn't they rather go to San Diego?

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    They DO go to San Diego, and every other city in the state of California, including many of the agriculturally important cities. Americans don't go out into the vegetable fields in the hot sun and pick the crop, illegal aliens from Latin America do.

    But since LA is the biggest city in California, naturally most end up here.

    BTW, New Mexico wasn't named that because many Mexicans go to that state.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Golgo_13
    They DO go to San Diego, and every other city in the state of California, including many of the agriculturally important cities. Americans don't go out into the vegetable fields in the hot sun and pick the crop, illegal aliens from Latin America do.

    But since LA is the biggest city in California, naturally most end up here.

    BTW, New Mexico wasn't named that because many Mexicans go to that state.
    Aliens!? Well, I guess most Martians and such can't be picky about their work, can they?
    Well, at least initially (a long time ago) many settlers from Mexico came there adn called their home New Mexico.Just like a long time ago, when British settlers from the town of York came to America, they named their new town New York.
    As we're just talking about New York (or "Big Apple" - no idea why it's called that), I've heard that West Coast and East Coast (and of them, especially LA and NY) can't stand each other. Now as I have the opportunity to hear it right out of the mouth of the horse, so to say, I thought I'd ask you about how you think about NY? Don't you like them, or are these your best buddies?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lina Inverse
    Just like a long time ago, when British settlers from the town of York came to America, they named their new town New York.
    As we're just talking about New York (or "Big Apple" - no idea why it's called that), I've heard that West Coast and East Coast (and of them, especially LA and NY) can't stand each other. Now as I have the opportunity to hear it right out of the mouth of the horse, so to say, I thought I'd ask you about how you think about NY? Don't you like them, or are these your best buddies?
    Before it was named New York, it was a Dutch colony and was called New Amsterdam. I went to Stuyvesant High School, which was named after the first Dutch governor of New York.

    There are many apple farms/orchards in upstate New York, and since NYC is the biggest city in the state of New York, the city is called the "Big Apple."

    I'll always consider myslef a native New Yorker. I can still recite all the station names along the Flushing #7 train line. I like LA because of the weather and the larger Japanese-American population, but I like the people of NYC better. More culturally diverse than in LA. I find people in LA very self-centered, selfish and arrogant (you can tell just by the way everybody drives here). Afterall, this is the city of Hollywood, and everybody thinks he's a star. If NYC had lower cost of living and better weather, I still might be living there.

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    So you actually come from New York? Very interesting... it isn't mentioned in your location (LA is clear, but the X in LAX? No idea about the other two...)
    Well, since Hollywood's there, I can easily imagine people being that way.
    Let's make an actual check of the temperatures (using Weather.com)
    Ok, here it is: US Weather Forecast May 20
    Los Angeles: 66°F (19°C)
    New York: 70°F (21°C)
    Well... seems like LA drew the shorter straw there
    Sunny Germany: 75°F (24°C) today - guess you should better come over here

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lina Inverse
    to 2. Well, you can use several levels of formality... I tried to balance it somewhat...
    most formal: "Guten Tag, ich bin..." - "Sehr erfreut, ihre Bekanntschaft zu machen." literally: "Good day, I am..." - "(I am) very pleased to make your acquantance."
    formal: "Guten Tag..." - "Angenehm."
    somewhat formal: "Hallo..." - "Angenehm."
    informal: "Hallo..." - "Hallo."
    Also for "How are you?", you have a formal and an informal version:
    formal: "Wie geht es Ihnen?"
    informal: "Wie geht es dir?"

    to 5. well, not quite... instead of "nicht", you'd rather use another word. Look at the vocabulary.
    Mann, ich wusste nicht, dass ich bei einer "erste Stunde" etwas noch lernen kann ( ich habe "Angenehm" nie in einer Dialog gehört... )
    (äh.. und wie du /euch siehst /sieht ich habe noch Problemen mit Artikeln und Adjektivdeklinazion :) )

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angel of Dark Winds
    Mann, ich wusste nicht, dass ich bei einer "ersten Stunde" etwas noch lernen kann ( ich habe "Angenehm" nie in einem Dialog gehört... )
    (äh.. und wie du/Sie siehst/sehen, habe ich noch Probleme- mit Artikeln und Adjektivdeklination :) )
    Ich habe mal deine Fehler korrigiert
    Soweit schon wirklich ganz gut

    "Angenehm" ist eine relativ formale Anrede, die im umgangssprachlichen Umgang in der Regel nicht verwendet wird.

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    I find it quite strange coming from Australia where there is pretty much only one language/dialect, Australian English, to hear about how much dialects can differ with distance in Germany.
    I went to Germany once and we were travelling to Bayern from Baden-Württemberg and there were some Bavarians on the train with us. I asked one of the guys I was with to tell us what they were saying but he couldn't understand a word!
    And then I tried to talk Hochdeutsch to a couple Bavarians in Bayern but they couldn't understand me either. I thought it was because of my bad pronunciation then, but maybe it was because they only recognise their own München dialect well?
    Travelling the same distance in Australia, for example from Victoria to South Australia, there is no difference whatsoever in language/dialect apart from a slight difference in accent which is most of the time unnoticeable.
    Anyway, my German's alot better now than it was then, so if i went back to Germany I reckon I'd be able to communicate better than i could then.

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    Quote Originally Posted by steryos
    I find it quite strange coming from Australia where there is pretty much only one language/dialect, Australian English, to hear about how much dialects can differ with distance in Germany.
    I went to Germany once and we were travelling to Bayern from Baden-WEttemberg and there were some Bavarians on the train with us. I asked one of the guys I was with to tell us what they were saying but he couldn't understand a word!
    And then I tried to talk Hochdeutsch to a couple Bavarians in Bayern but they couldn't understand me either. I thought it was because of my bad pronunciation then, but maybe it was because they only recognise their own MEchen dialect well?
    Travelling the same distance in Australia, for example from Victoria to South Australia, there is no difference whatsoever in language/dialect apart from a slight difference in accent which is most of the time unnoticeable.
    Anyway, my German's alot better now than it was then, so if i went back to Germany I reckon I'd be able to communicate better than i could then.
    The issue is probably that the Bavarian dialect is very different from Standard German, so much that I'd say it's a language of its own, as it's actually pretty much incomprehensible to any German. I guess the opposite would be right as well, a Bavarian will have difficulties understanding normal German if he only speaks Bavarian.
    So, it's certainly not your fault that you weren't understood. If you went back to Germany (and not Bavaria), then you probably wouldn't have problems in being understood.

  24. #49
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    Guten Tag, Ich habe Deutch nicht gesprecht(sp?) fur mehr als 6 Jahren. Ich habe verscheidene Tale gelehrt in die Zeit. Ein von die Talen ist Nederlandisch und die hast All mein worter geesst(Essen=eat, right?)

    please tell me what's wrong with that sentence. My Dutch has obliterated my German.(I wonder why Deutsch isn't called Dutch in English)

  25. #50
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    Gott in Himmel! I'm back at school. I'm 13 again trying to get my tongue around German. Actually I wanted to do German at school, but had to do French. Now let's try again.
    For some reason my brother always uses the german for why

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