adnaxp: Hair, skin, eye color for ancient samples (AADR-based)

Jovialis

Jovialis

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I noticed that most aadr samples are kind of haploid, if you convert the aadr samples to 23andme, you’ll see that the alleles in the majority of the samples are just: AA CC GG TT.

We’re diploid, a pair of combination of A C G T :
AA AC CT AG …….
 
Vitruvius said:
It'd be nice to compare pictures of living samples to the estimation to gauge accuracy.
Click to expand...
Adding to this,

The idea that nearly all Sardinians share an intermediate skin color is an alien idea to me. The Sardinians I have seen are all typically fair. I wouldn't classify most them as extremely pale, but definitely much more fair than "intermediate". I'm sure there are a few exceptions out there with truly intermediate skin tones but I don't believe they represent the average. Here is an example of the Sardinian actress Caterina Murino, who, while well above average in looks, has a pretty typically representative skin color for most Sardinians.

1722562618479.jpeg


As a comparison here is what I would consider an "intermediate" skin tone. This is probably more typical amongst middle eastern populations. The example here is an afghani woman.

1722562965757.jpeg


I've also yet to see a truly dark skinned Italian of any type, including in Southern Italy/Sicily. On occasion I meet some with intermediate complexions, but nothing that I would consider dark. This is a typical example of a man that I would consider truly or classically "dark skinned" from India.

1722562384908.jpeg


And this is what I would consider "Very dark skin" as a comparison. It's fairly uncommon outside of Subsaharan african populations. Aborignal australians also would probably fit in this category as an average.

1722562315099.jpeg



Furthermore while it's possible the northern Italian sample simply happened to have a lot of blondes, 40% is pretty excessive as an average. I would be surprised if all of these types were truly blondes without some of them simply having lighter brown hair. I've been of the opinion in the past that these phenotype estimates are really quite off - especially when it comes to skin color they tend to classify individuals as darker than they truly are.
 
Vitruvius said:
I also caught that and thought it was pretty strange. I imagine Greek Anatolia to look a good bit like Southern Italians/Greek islanders who have a very low (but not absent) frequency of blondness.
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Indeed this was a surprise to me as well. Most of the Ancient Greeks are also darker on average, like they are today. Another ironic discovery was that most of the Etruscans are also dark on average. Yet we see Roman and Greek Anatolia as noticeably lighter.
 
Jovialis said:
https://twitter.com/x/status/1818292324197126601
Click to expand...
On the Nrken19 site mentioned here, there is "Correcting the Record" about Ethnic Stereotypes among students at Paris University c 1200 A.D. according to Jacques de Vitry.
It is scathing on various national and regional groups.
In Italy around 1200 Lombards (North Italians) were seen as avaricious, vicious and cowardly;

Romans (Central Italians) were seditious, turbulent and slanderous;

Sicilians (South Italians) were tyrannical and cruel.

What is going on here?
 
Vallicanus said:
On the Nrken19 site mentioned here, there is "Correcting the Record" about Ethnic Stereotypes among students at Paris University c 1200 A.D. according to Jacques de Vitry.
It is scathing on various national and regional groups.
In Italy around 1200 Lombards (North Italians) were seen as avaricious, vicious and cowardly;

Romans (Central Italians) were seditious, turbulent and slanderous;

Sicilians (South Italians) were tyrannical and cruel.

What is going on here?
Click to expand...
French will be French :p

On a serious note I'm surprised how familiar (they think) they were with Italian regions. Probably a view from Italians of the French wouldn't have been more flattering but it's hard to imagine that Medieval Italians would have been able to provide different characters for different French regions.
 
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Jovialis said:
Indeed this was a surprise to me as well. Most of the Ancient Greeks are also darker on average, like they are today. Another ironic discovery was that most of the Etruscans are also dark on average. Yet we see Roman and Greek Anatolia as noticeably lighter.
Click to expand...
Is that the same Etruscan sample that had only one light eyed individual among a sizeable group while the neighbouring and genetically almost identical Picenes where overwhelmingly light-eyed? Or is that a new sample?

Ancient DNA phenotypical results are being very curious. Nonetheless interesting.
 
HereToLearn said:
French will be French :p

On a serious note I'm surprised how familiar (they think) they were with Italian regions. Probably a view from Italians of the French wouldn't have been more flattering but it's hard to imagine that Medieval Italians would have been able to provide different characters for different French regions.
Click to expand...
Some cowards!
The Lombard League of cities got the better of 2 German Emperors, namely Frederick "Barbarossa" and Frederick "Stupor Mundi".
 
Vitruvius said:
Adding to this,

The idea that nearly all Sardinians share an intermediate skin color is an alien idea to me. The Sardinians I have seen are all typically fair. I wouldn't classify most them as extremely pale, but definitely much more fair than "intermediate". I'm sure there are a few exceptions out there with truly intermediate skin tones but I don't believe they represent the average. Here is an example of the Sardinian actress Caterina Murino, who, while well above average in looks, has a pretty typically representative skin color for most Sardinians.

View attachment 16436

As a comparison here is what I would consider an "intermediate" skin tone. This is probably more typical amongst middle eastern populations. The example here is an afghani woman.

View attachment 16437

I've also yet to see a truly dark skinned Italian of any type, including in Southern Italy/Sicily. On occasion I meet some with intermediate complexions, but nothing that I would consider dark. This is a typical example of a man that I would consider truly or classically "dark skinned" from India.

View attachment 16435

And this is what I would consider "Very dark skin" as a comparison. It's fairly uncommon outside of Subsaharan african populations. Aborignal australians also would probably fit in this category as an average.

View attachment 16434


Furthermore while it's possible the northern Italian sample simply happened to have a lot of blondes, 40% is pretty excessive as an average. I would be surprised if all of these types were truly blondes without some of them simply having lighter brown hair. I've been of the opinion in the past that these phenotype estimates are really quite off - especially when it comes to skin color they tend to classify individuals as darker than they truly are.
Click to expand...
Of course almost all of true Sardinians are comprised in the "white" (fair skinned people) side.
BTW even in Near-East, a big part of the people are in the same group (the darkest "white" hue, evidently!) and some Lebaneses and Syrians are even lighter (so not the darkest hues) - I 've to repeat this. don't forget ALL THIS CONCERNS THE SKIN PARTS NOT SUBMITTED TO SUN LIGHT.
These "dark white" skins doesn't correspond, I think, to the 'intermediate' label. Moreover I suppose the phoenotypes markers studied todate are the principal ones but they do'nt make y force the whole story: other less penetrant ones escaped to the inventory, which could give a lighter skin guess... see later?
 
MOESAN said:
Of course almost all of true Sardinians are comprised in the "white" (fair skinned people) side.
BTW even in Near-East, a big part of the people are in the same group (the darkest "white" hue, evidently!) and some Lebaneses and Syrians are even lighter (so not the darkest hues) - I 've to repeat this. don't forget ALL THIS CONCERNS THE SKIN PARTS NOT SUBMITTED TO SUN LIGHT.
These "dark white" skins doesn't correspond, I think, to the 'intermediate' label. Moreover I suppose the phoenotypes markers studied todate are the principal ones but they do'nt make y force the whole story: other less penetrant ones escaped to the inventory, which could give a lighter skin guess... see later?
Click to expand...
It's honestly uncommon to see Italians of any type (Sardinian or not) dark skinned and when you do it's pretty much exclusively due to a lot of sun exposure. For those who haven't tanned the darkest I ever see is "intermediate" and they are still very much in the minority. Of course that doesn't make them any more or less Italian than anyone else, but in general I don't think there's any European ethnic group that comes anywhere close to averaging a skin color which is less than fair. As far as skin color goes, in Europe there is little variation to be had across nationalities.

And yes I agree. There's definitely a significant amount of people even in the middle east who still have a fair skin color - especially in places like Turkey.
 
Vitruvius said:
It's honestly uncommon to see Italians of any type (Sardinian or not) dark skinned and when you do it's pretty much exclusively due to a lot of sun exposure. For those who haven't tanned the darkest I ever see is "intermediate" and they are still very much in the minority. Of course that doesn't make them any more or less Italian than anyone else, but in general I don't think there's any European ethnic group that comes anywhere close to averaging a skin color which is less than fair. As far as skin color goes, in Europe there is little variation to be had across nationalities.

And yes I agree. There's definitely a significant amount of people even in the middle east who still have a fair skin color - especially in places like Turkey.
Click to expand...
people say white people
it would be clearer if they used the term caucasian

there are millions of east-asian more whiter than caucasians
 
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