adnaxp: Hair, skin, eye color for ancient samples (AADR-based)

[MOESAN]

people say white people
it would be clearer if they used the term caucasian

there are millions of east-asian more whiter than caucasians

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réflectance de la peau (sujet à caution: petits échantillons)​

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HOMMES​

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FEMMES​

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moyenne​

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« Noirs » Afrique divers 4​

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14,00​

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Aborigènes Austral. Darwin​

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19,30​

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« Noirs » Afrique divers 3​

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20,00​

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« Noirs » Afrique divers 2​

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30,00​

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Papous Nlle Guinée​

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35,90​

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« Noirs » Afrique divers 1​

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40,00​

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Inde Sud (Dravidiens?)​

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46,70​

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Jirel​

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49,10​

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56,60​

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Népal​

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50,40​

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Iran​

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51,20​

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60,10​

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55,65​

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Pakistan vrac​

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52,30​

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Arabie Saoudite​

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52,50​

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Jordanie​

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53,00​

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Yemen​

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53,10​

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56,90​

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55,00​

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Sikhs​

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53,20​

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55,50​

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54,35​

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Inde vrac​

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53,30​

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Japon Sud​

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53,50​

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Cambodge​

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54,00​

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Philippines Manille​

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54,10​

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Punjab​

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54,50​

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53,60​

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54,05​

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Maroc​

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54,80​

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Kurds​

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54,90​

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60,00​

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57,45​

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Japon Nord​

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54,90​

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Vietnam​

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55,90​

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Tunisie​

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56,30​

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Algériens vrac​

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58,00​

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58,04​

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58,02​

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Algérie Berbères Aurès​

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58,00​

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Israel​

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58,20​

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Liban​

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58,20​

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Turquie​

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59,10​

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Chine Sud​

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59,10​

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Kurds (Irak + Syrie)​

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61,10​

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Européens (vrac)​

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61,50​

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63,10​

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62,30​

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Britanniques Londres​

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62,30​

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Belgique vrac​

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63,10​

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Belgique 1​

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64,50​

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63,60​

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64,05​

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Espagne Leon​

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64,66​

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Irlande Rossmore​

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64,75​

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Pays de Galles​

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65,00​

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Basques Vizcaye Espagne​

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65,20​

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65,80​

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65,50​

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Basques Guipuzcoa Espagne​

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65,50​

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66,40​

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65,95​

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Basques espagnols divers​

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65,70​

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Nord Grande-Bretagne​

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66,10​

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Allemagne Mainz Mayence​

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66,90​

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Belgique 2​

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67,30​

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65,90​

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66,60​

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Pays-Bas​

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67,40​

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[MOESAN]

people say white people
it would be clearer if they used the term caucasian

there are millions of east-asian more whiter than caucasians

here under a survey of Jablonski, I put only males (more numerous) - small samples -
African Blacks (4) 14,00 - Aborigenes Darwin 19,30 - Afr. Blacks (3) 20,00 - Afr. Blacks 30,00 - South India 46,70 - Nepal 50,40 - Iran 51,20 - Pakistan (diverse) 52,30 - Saudi 52,5 - Jordanians 53,00 - Yemenites 53,10 - Indian Sikhs 53,20 - Indians (diverse) 53,30 - Southern Japon 53,50 - Cambodge 54,00 - Manilla Philippines 54,10 - Indian Punjab (north) 54,50 - Marocco 54,8 - Kurds (diverse) 54,90 - Northlgern Japan 54,90 - Tunisia 56,30 - Algeria (diverse) 58,00 - Berbers Aures Algeria 58,00 - Israel 58,20 - Lebanon 58,20 - Turkey 59,10 - Southern China (59,10 - Kurds (Syrian + Iraq) 61,10 - Europeans (diverse) 61,50 - UK London 62,30 - Belgians (diverse) 63,10 - Belgians (1) 64,50 - Spain Leon 64,66 - Eire Rossmore 64,75 - Wales 65,00 - Sp. Basques Vizcaya 65,20 -
Sp.Basques Guipuzcoa 65,50 - Sp.Basques (diverse) 65,70 - Great Brittain North 66,10 - Germany Mainz 66,90 - Belgians (2) 67,30 - The Netherlands 67,40 -
&: as a whole, females ar darker skinned!

 

[MOESAN]

here under a survey of Jablonski, I put only males (more numerous) - small samples -
African Blacks (4) 14,00 - Aborigenes Darwin 19,30 - Afr. Blacks (3) 20,00 - Afr. Blacks 30,00 - South India 46,70 - Nepal 50,40 - Iran 51,20 - Pakistan (diverse) 52,30 - Saudi 52,5 - Jordanians 53,00 - Yemenites 53,10 - Indian Sikhs 53,20 - Indians (diverse) 53,30 - Southern Japon 53,50 - Cambodge 54,00 - Manilla Philippines 54,10 - Indian Punjab (north) 54,50 - Marocco 54,8 - Kurds (diverse) 54,90 - Northlgern Japan 54,90 - Tunisia 56,30 - Algeria (diverse) 58,00 - Berbers Aures Algeria 58,00 - Israel 58,20 - Lebanon 58,20 - Turkey 59,10 - Southern China (59,10 - Kurds (Syrian + Iraq) 61,10 - Europeans (diverse) 61,50 - UK London 62,30 - Belgians (diverse) 63,10 - Belgians (1) 64,50 - Spain Leon 64,66 - Eire Rossmore 64,75 - Wales 65,00 - Sp. Basques Vizcaya 65,20 -
Sp.Basques Guipuzcoa 65,50 - Sp.Basques (diverse) 65,70 - Great Brittain North 66,10 - Germany Mainz 66,90 - Belgians (2) 67,30 - The Netherlands 67,40 -
&: as a whole, females ar darker skinned!

other survey with a different system:
Sweden, Norway, Iceland, Slovenia: 1,57
Netherlands: 1,49
Germany: 1,48
Czechia: 1,42
Albania, Italy, Bulgaria, Ukraine: 1,27
Spain: 1,19
Cyprus, Greece, Portugal: 1,12
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I don't know which one, but one uses reflectance, the other transparency - one is subject to effetcs of veins blood

 

[MOESAN]

I avow I was surprised by the Jablonski survey placing the Leon Spagnards and even more the Spain Basques among the lighest skinned people of Europe, lighter than some northwestern Europeans, even British or Irish - it's true that the samples are reputed for being little - That said, Spagnards as a whole are a bit darkest skinned, and in Spain there are differences in the regions averages; Basques in some ancient studies (nude eye made) had already the reputation of being not so dark skinned as a whole. Spite an allover rather homogenous autosomDNA average, Spagnards show some differences in pigmentary phoenotypes averages by regions, more than do Portugueses (except Minho in NW I think). I speak of kind of arithmetical averages; of course, in every region, even the more "typical", individuals show more or less differences, not all of them corresponding to the stereotype.

 

[HereToLearn]

AutosomDNA is contradicted by phenotype on several instances. I could make many examples even on large scale at populations level. Or maybe there's a degree of detail that we are still missing in our analyses, and that would allow to reconcile autosomal DNA and phenotype in a more consistent and straightforward manner?

 

[Anfänger]

Don‘t take this tool to literal. It was made by our old friend "Genetiker".

 

[MOESAN]

Don‘t take this tool to literal. It was made by our old friend "Genetiker".

There is not a true discrepancy between autosDNA and phoenotypes (here we speak of pigmentation, not of skulls or bodies forms) - It's just that pigmentation reacts to environment and diverse selections without needing a lot of genes so it can vary more quickly than the allover autosDNA making.
and if the principal and more effective SNP's are a few number, others can operate by accumulation producing sometimes close enough results with a different genetic support. We have surely somethings to learn yet.

 

[HereToLearn]

(here we speak of pigmentation, not of skulls or bodies forms)

Do you mean classification of human races based on cranial measures? I see that a lot on certain "dubious" forums, but is that considered a sound scientifical way to infer genetic ancestry? And even if those variations existed shouldn't they be readily attributed to the environment, just like pigmentation? For example, a certain shape of the ears or nose is more suitable for a certain climate, just like lighter / darker skin is supposed to be adapted to certain climates.

 

[Anfänger]

There is not a true discrepancy between autosDNA and phoenotypes (here we speak of pigmentation, not of skulls or bodies forms) - It's just that pigmentation reacts to environment and diverse selections without needing a lot of genes so it can vary more quickly than the allover autosDNA making.
and if the principal and more effective SNP's are a few number, others can operate by accumulation producing sometimes close enough results with a different genetic support. We have surely somethings to learn yet.

Absolutely, that’s also the same position I have on pigmentation and environment. I made several posts on this subject in the past, you may have read them. Pigmentation can change very fast without much difference/change in atDNA.

I just wanted to clarify that this tool isn’t made by the Harvard group but by amateur geneticist Genetiker.

 

[MOESAN]

just keeping going with pigmentation before maybe answer to other questions, I wonder why in the incomplete survey of Jablonski concerning wives he found them darker than males as a whole: in some countries it could be linked to ever lasting exogamy. But in others?
I read an old study (French I believe) with three different screams on reflectance through the ages for boys and girls (forehead and inside arms) : it found always the girls a bit fairer than the boys, what is the common opinion - interestingly t shows the skin colour evolves by age, becoming darker between about 6/8 yrs to 12/14 yrs (proxi) before becoming fairer again between the 12's and the 18's - a detail: arms and frontals follow generally the same evolution except among boys who see their frontal staying darker at 18's, so with a bigger differences between these two body parts than have girls. I think I read something like that too concernng Duthc people, adult males having neatly darker foreheads than females. Blood irrigation? more exposure to sun?

 

[MOESAN]

I answer me! With the paper under my eyes in place of my "souvenirs", it's better!
the survey was made in fact in Spain about more than 800 children, a bit more females than males -
shortly said: approximatively: A: 6 to 10 years - B: 10 to 14 - C: 14 to 18
- fairer the girls than the boys, for frontals as for inside hidden part of arms -
- arms lighter than frontals in every case -
- the differences by sex is littler for frontal than for arms -
- globally 6 years to 10 years the pigmentation darkens - it changes very little between 10's and 14's - the pigmentation lightens between 14's and 18's -
- when both sexes are averaged frontal and arms color darken slowly without great break, just some stabilization in the middle period, but arms lighten very strongly after 14 years -
- for girls, frontal darkens very little in period A, and lightens little in period C- for boys, frontal darlens almost all the time, beginning a bit lighter than for girls before becoming very darker than for them -
- fo girls and boys, arms begin the same, darkens almost the same way, and in C they lighten strongly, with girls begining htelightening a bit before, and going more evidently lighter -
&: so, less variations for the frontal, a more exposed part, with kind of stabilization - the changes for the arms are more evident, opposing more A to B, with this unexpected lightening between 14-15 and 18's - I think the measurings for arms are more informative -
this post is more serious than the preceding, sorry.

 

[MOESAN]

Do you mean classification of human races based on cranial measures? I see that a lot on certain "dubious" forums, but is that considered a sound scientifical way to infer genetic ancestry? And even if those variations existed shouldn't they be readily attributed to the environment, just like pigmentation? For example, a certain shape of the ears or nose is more suitable for a certain climate, just like lighter / darker skin is supposed to be adapted to certain climates.

This climatic adaptation for body features is valid as a general level, but other factors come to change partly the game - not always evident - ATW if we look at Paleo and Meso-lithic known human skeletons of pops sometimes living in close areas we see some groups with very distinct features, body, skull and face, without speaking of the fleshy parts - so some mutations + isolation giving way to rapid selection on small groups could have acted more quickly than climatic pressure, without eliminate some big schemes of this last one?
The purely natural selection goes not so fast as the accidental/unconsicent + more or less conscient motors of social selection which has an imput on the pure natural selection, I think.