america - the new roman empire?

[babar-san]

i was thinking to myself today, after a long discussion about the psychology behind mainstream media, its efffects on the public, human behavioral interaction, social conditioning, and the general state of the lack of a cultural identity due to mass-integration with numerous races, and a political and capitolistic standpoint economically, has america become the new roman empire? enforcing its will upon the world? subjecting it in suble ways through the quagmire of political and international policy? look at our culture. the country was founded on prodestant beliefs, whitch integrated itself into a vast majority of american homes. but in the last few decades, id say its safe to say that america has been on a steady decline in moral values, especially displayed through the media. sex is everywhere, violence is everywhere, crime is everywhere, and in some ways, glorified. even homosexuality and bi-sexuality are commonplace, as they were in anchient rome. i do not think that there is anything wrong with homosexuality or bi-sexuality, rather, the idea that they are wrong came from the roman catholic church, whoes ideals still cling to modern civilization. my question is, until we colonize space, the groundhogs will continue to battle it out over chunks of earth, squabbling to gain power. the roman empire lasted for nearly a mellenia. the united states as a functioning, modern civilization has only been around for about 300 yrs. recently, a democrat from the north east kingdom (maybe vermont or new hampshire), was bashed in a senate meeting for implying that america will not always be "the" world superpower. this made me think of rome. so, have we become the new roman empire? are we slipping into debauchery, and if so, if america were to fall eventually as everything does in history, i pose one question, who would you rather control the world?

 

[mad pierrot]

This has been a subject of much debate

for some time. Jerome Corsi, an "expert" on terrorism has alot to say about this. You can read his article HERE. (America vs Ancient Rome.)

Personally, I think he's full of sh*t.

Anyways, it's a great subject to ramble about and I hope to hear what other members think about this. Here's my take:

so, have we become the new roman empire?

No.

are we slipping into debauchery

Yes. (See Brooker's recent thread.)

who would you rather control the world?

This imples America controls the world, which it doesn't, although it undeniably has tremendous influence.

When I'm back later (on a break at work right now) I'll write why I answered the way I did. In the meantime, I'd love it if anyone would read the article by Corsi and comment on it.

 

[Wang]

America the new Roman Empire? The European Union is more like the new Roman Empire if you ask me.

 

[mad pierrot]

More articles....

This one is from the BBC.

Rival Rome's?

And one from the globalist.

Imperial America?

There are more than a few good books on this subject floating around, too. Does anyone have any recommendations?

 

[Frank D. White]

What Worries Me.....

is the average citizen has very little interest in controlling what our government & polititians do. Everyday we read about corrupt polititians and private business CEO's; I never hear anyone complain about it?It seems no one speaks out against the wrongs commited unless it affects them on a personal level or takes money out of their pocket.If the good & honest people sit back and let evil go on unfettered, where are we headed for?I think world opinion of the US is a good indicator of our decline. It doesn't help that all the news portrays is the bad things and we rarely hear of anything good that happens.

Frank

:clueless:

 

[senseiman]

One good book I just read on the subject was "Hegemony or Survival" by Noam Chomsky. He points out that the new national security strategy announced by the Bush administration in 2002 is pretty much a blueprint for cementing permanent American control over the rest of the world.

Of course America is an empire. The only reason nobody ever officially refers to America's dominions as an empire is because the founding father's of the US constitution fought a war against British imperialism and made that the cause d'etre of the newly formed country, so there is a lot of political baggage that comes with the proper terminology. But look at the facts, the US has military bases in over 60 countries around the world. They can use their economic power alone to topple regimes they dislike and when that fails they can just invade.

This isn't at all related to declining morals or sex in the media. Its been going on for decades and has only accelerated recently because of the unfortunate coincidence that a group of neo conservative thugs were sitting in the white house on 9/11.

 

[mad pierrot]

Ok, here I go!

First, I agree with Senseiman.

Of course America is an empire.

I don't doubt that one bit, but I'm extremely wary of comparisons of the United States and Ancient Rome. In my opinion, articles like the one Jerome Corsi wrote are nothing more than thinly veiled propaganda, pro imperialist. Firstly, the United State's ascendancy has nothing in common with the nexus of Rome's Empire, primarily based on argiculture. Secondly, the Jerome article is full of lots of little white lies mixed in with snippets of truth. At the end of reading the article, one comes out with the impression that America's actions and policies are only natural.

Some points of contention:
(feel free to comment on these)

Our goal is and must be to establish independent regimes in these countries and leave.

Indepent regimes? I think he means puppet administrations.

Forget that we didn't find weapons of mass destruction. Saddam Hussein had given the world every reason to believe WMDs were there,

Forget that the chief argument for the war was baseless? I don't think so.


His last paragraph is just loaded, so I'm going to take it apart piece by piece.

The United States of America remains, as Abraham Lincoln expressed, mankind's last, best experiment with freedom in a nation where all men are considered equal,

Mankinds last hope, eh? Right. Is he trying to say America is more Democratic than any other nation in the world and therefore the best?

We have massive power, yet Americans understand restraint and respect for others.

Ha ha. No comment.

Further more, Jerome uses fear to drive his justifications for the United State's conduct.

Imagine any major U.S. city without electricity for a prolonged period of time and you will quickly see a crisis beginning to emerge after as short a period of time as 48 hours. No American city is ready for the consequences of a suitcase nuclear bomb exploded within their metropolis.

How will we avoid the downfall that ancient Rome suffered? .......

The ancient Romans conquered in order to colonize. ......
The United States has always fought foreign wars with a different purpose in mind – to defend the national interests of the United States. Americans do not intend to establish colonies. This is why the goals of holding elections in Afghanistan and Iraq is so important. Our goal is and must be to establish independent regimes in these countries and leave.

I really dislike the way he tries to use this comparison with the Roman Empire to give any sense of validity to US foreign policy.

On the other hand, I do think he's telling the truth when he says this,

American foreign policy can be reduced to two simple principles:

1. The American people do not want to be blown up, and

2. Anything that prevents the American people from being blown up is OK.

Ok! Ramble over. I'm sure I've left a few holes in my spiel big enough to throw rabbits through, so feel free to pick it apart as you see fit. I need to get something to eat and get some sleep, but you can bet I'll be back later.

 

[Brooker]

Yes, America is the new Roman Empire. There's an album by a band I like called, "We are the Romans". But the thing America needs to learn from history is that every empire eventually falls.

 

[babar-san]

hmmmm... ive pondered this question for a long time ... but the article that mad pierrot linked to was a facinating view of a biased opinion from albeit a medeocre propagandist.
i think it is far more complex than he would like us believe.
our 2 cultures have evolved in completely different circumstances, as pointed out by senseiman. my take on the matter at hand, by comparison, is that of the republican congressmen, who hold so much power. the bureaucracy never ends. its escalating to a point where there will be less and less middle class americans, and more rich and poor. think about all of the agricultural towns of the mid-west that have gone belly up because corporate facilitation has taken control of the market, putting mom and pop out of business. this type of political bureaucracy mirrors the roman political structure in many ways. they understood the role of the peasant, and the role of the warrior, and that of the political figure.
our youth idolize vanity as the romans did with their patron dieties, faithless, cold, and conquering. i see it everyday i interact with ppl who are completely media driven and the "stereotype" plastic, vein, arogant, attitude that follows.
funny how america borrows more money from china, than any other country in the world. i would be really interested to get the chinese opinion on this as well....
this power the united states has cant last forever, but may last 7 more centuries....only time will tell.

 

[mad pierrot]

The biggest thing the American Empire has in common with the ancient Roman Empire is....

they were both empires.

:smash:

But I'd love to see the "vomitorium" make a comeback....

Heh heh. (Also a myth.)