Ancestry

[Tautalus]

@Duarte
Yes, the Big Y 700's prices are a bit high, which should discourage some from giving it a try.
But you and “El Cordobés” are not the only ones on earth with that subclade, sooner or later someone else will appear.

I find Y-Dna and mtDna haplogroups fascinating, they are not percentages like those for autosomal DNA that sometimes have wide variations between different tests or calculators. They allow us to draw a more direct line between ourselves and our ancestors, through the mutations they undergo.

Regarding my haplogroup, Maciamo refers the theory (I2a2a3 (Z161+)) that it was brought to the west of Iberia not by the Celts, but by the Suebi, during the Barbarian Invasions at the end of the Roman Empire. It is a theory based on several genetic studies and articles.

And it makes some sense, I think there is no record of this haplogroup in Iberia before the arrival of the Suebi and the Goths. The Suebi settled in the northwest of the peninsula, their capital was Braga and the area with the highest population concentration was the surrounding region in the north of Portugal.

Their cousins, the Lombards, had a high frequency of this haplogroup. Perhaps the studies that Amorim carried out on these ancient Lombards will one day be replicated in Portugal with the Suebi.

Anyway, whoever brought this haplogroup to Iberia, Suebi or not, was one more thread in the complex tapestry that is the ancestry of the Portuguese, further enriching their genetic heritage.

 

[Tautalus]

What have I learned from all these DNA tests and calculators?

I have a germanic paternal lineage, a yamnaya maternal lineage, I have admixtures from the west, from the south, from the north, from the east of the continent, I have a bit of North African.
Going back a little further in time my greatest single admixture is from the farmers (EEF), the second from the hunter-gatherers (WHG).

What a mix. Did what I learned about my ancestry change my perception of myself in any way?
No, I feel the way I felt before, a Portuguese, a European, a man from the West, from the Atlantic shores.

Ultimately, these feelings were intensified, because those tests made me see how intimately connected I am to this country, this continent and its history. These tests confirm my identity.

At school we have learned about all the peoples that contributed to the formation of our nations, in the Portuguese case they were the prehistoric peoples (from the Paleolithic, the Neolithic…), the Lusitanians, the Suebi and all the others who passed through this country and settled here, these tests revealed that the history taught is real, we are a mixture of all these peoples.

A cumulative mix of many and diverse elements that contributed to the ethnic formation of the nation.
And that is beautiful and inspiring.

 

[Jovialis]

What have I learned from all these DNA tests and calculators?

I have a germanic paternal lineage, a yamnaya maternal lineage, I have admixtures from the west, from the south, from the north, from the east of the continent, I have a bit of North African.
Going back a little further in time my greatest single admixture is from the farmers (EEF), the second from the hunter-gatherers (WHG).

What a mix. Did what I learned about my ancestry change my perception of myself in any way?
No, I feel the way I felt before, a Portuguese, a European, a man from the West, from the Atlantic shores.

Ultimately, these feelings were intensified, because those tests made me see how intimately connected I am to this country, this continent and its history. These tests confirm my identity.

At school we have learned about all the peoples that contributed to the formation of our nations, in the Portuguese case they were the prehistoric peoples (from the Paleolithic, the Neolithic…), the Lusitanians, the Suebi and all the others who passed through this country and settled here, these tests revealed that the history taught is real, we are a mixture of all these peoples.

A cumulative mix of many and diverse elements that contributed to the ethnic formation of the nation.
And that is beautiful and inspiring.

Indeed, that sounds spot of for an Iberian. Our maternal-lineage is almost the same actually, it indeed comes from Yamnaya. H6a1b2 and H6a1b7

I think my paternal-lineage may have come from Yamnaya too by way of the Balkans across the Adriatic.

 

[Tautalus]

@Jovialis
I had already noticed that our maternal lineage is almost the same. I looked for more information on the Net about this haplogroup, but there is not much.

One of the most complete is on Eupedia about mtDNA H (as you should know) :
“H6 was absent from Europe before the Bronze Age and has such a wide distribution across the continent nowadays that it would likely have been spread both by R1a and R1b branches of the Indo-Europeans. Indeed, H6 was found in ancient remains from most Indo-European Bronze Age cultures, including Yamna (H6a1b), Corded Ware (H6a1a), Unetice (H6a1b, H6a1b3), Poltavka (H6a2), Okunevo (H6a1b), Srubnaya (H6a1a) and Andronovo (H6). Actually H6 was the only H samples identified so far in the Andronovo culture in Central Asia.”

It is also mentioned on Eupedia on the page about the Yamna Culture, where is mentioned Haak's study that found H6a1b in the remains of the Yamnaya, our two branches are descendants of that one.


AmtDB as some samples of H6a1b, the oldest is from the Yamnaya culture, is the sample from Haak.


23&Me gives only this basic information about H6.



There also a study that says that our mt haplogroup have protective effects against Alzheimer’s disease

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23028804/

 

[Tautalus]

Yet another calculator.


If confirmation was needed that I am essentially an Ibero-Med.

 

[Duarte]

I am a typical Latin American with an Iberian bias. According this calculator I could have some Italic or Greek ancestry due to the the presence of Paleo-Balcan ethnicity and to have a bit higher level of Central-Med ethnicity. But, in my specific case, this can not be related to recent Italian immigration to Brazil. If this have some degree of accuracy, it’s ancestral.

 

[Kirgonix Pereira]

After reading countless articles, also on this forum, for years about genetic ancestry, I decided to do the tests to find out my autosomal DNA, Y-DNA and mtDNA. Knowing my country's history and what had already been written about its genetics, I knew more or less what to expect.

And the results from the autosomal DNA were not a complete surprise.
The most surprising were the results from the mtDNA and mainly from the Y-DNA.
I have a Y-DNA that approximately only 2% or 3% of the Portuguese have.

I did the tests in different companies.
These are the results obtained from Living DNA.

View attachment 13804

It is impressive how Living DNA assigns percentages for Great Britain not in national terms but for each region, which also makes them more confusing.

These are the results obtained from FamilyTreeDna.

View attachment 13805

The areas are roughly the same, Iberia, Central Europe, Great Britain, North Africa. The percentages vary.
Genetic ancestry is not an exact science, i guess. The reference groups each company uses are different and changing all the time.

The central Mediterranean area is more difficult to interpret.
One test says I have 21.5% ancestry from South Italy, the other that I have 12% from Sardinia and 3% from Malta.
So, I don't fully understand, I think these two areas correspond to somewhat different genetics.

The trace percentages from Baltic and Southern Caucasus are also strange.


And according to FamilyTreeDna these are my WHG, EEF and ANE results (if Metal Age Invader corresponds to ANE).
I've read on this forum that these results are not very reliable, but I think they shouldn't be too far from reality.

View attachment 13806

I also did tests at 23&me, but as they only analyze a period of 200 or 300 years, it was useless to discover my ancient ancestry.

So far, it's been a fascinating journey and the next step is to do the Big-Y700 to discover a deeper branch that I might belong to.

Very Nice results.
My acient origins are very similar with yours.

 

[Tautalus]

After 10 weeks of waiting, I finally received the Big Y 700 results.

And they were a surprise. Instead of belonging to branch S2364 of CTS6433, which is the most extensive, I belong to SK1258. The specific sub-branch I belong to, I-FTB15368, emerged during the Iron Age.

They say that FTB15368 used to be equivalent to FTB15859, however, the results determined that it was an older SNP and needed to be moved upstream to its own branch. Since that change was only recently made, that SNP is not listed as its own haplogroup in the FTDNA Discover reports yet. The updates to Discover will take about 1-2 weeks.

FTDNA Globetrekker does not have sufficient data on this branch (I-FTB15368), but places the parent branch (I-FT384439) in Netherlands, in the Iron Age. SNP Tracker places my branch in Northeastern France, in the Loraine region, also in the Iron Age.

Curiously in FTDNA there is a Frenchman who belongs to the parent branch (I-FT384439).
How is this branch found in Portugal thousands of years later without any additional mutations?
How did it arrive there, during the Migration period, when the Roman Empire fell, with the Suevi? During the Middle Ages, during the Reconquista? With crusaders from Northern Europe?
The territory of Loraine is next to the Duchy of Burgundy, where the founder of the first dynasty of the kingdom of Portugal came from, in the 11th century. They will have come with settlers. Did my ancestor come with these settlers?
It’s intriguing. I was left with more questions than I had before.

Blocktree

Haplotree

​

 

[Duarte]

Congratulations on the result. The haplogroup immediately upstream of yours has an area of uncertainty of origin concentrated in Central-Western Europe. Maybe when more testers do the Big Y, someone may appear to keep you company in your subclade or in a subclade further downstream.

 

[Kirgonix Pereira]

Based on my research and based on the fact that Portugal is very deserted in certain areas during the first reigns of the Portuguese Kings, if you have ancestors (on your father's side, paternal grandfather...) close to the city of Guarda, in Beira, Trás-os-Montes, Gouveia, Covilhã, Viseu, Bragança, São Vicente da Beira or Belmonte, I believe that your branch of y-dna comes from immigrants from Flanders and Burgundy during the Settlement carried out by Sancho I.

 

[Kirgonix Pereira]

Following this line of thought you will most likely be a descendant of the Franks from "Flanders zone" who defeated the Burgundians in Burgundy (both Germanic tribes). The Franks in turn mixed with the Gallo-Roman population at the time (stronger in R1b) and left a very strong mark on France.
There are two branches of Francs (R1B) the most common and your branch.


In addition to Germany and France, we can see this haplogroup in England, Ireland and Scotland, which makes sense.

Both the migrations of the Angles and the Saxons (they were close by), so there must have been some with the I-Z165 branch.

 

[Kirgonix Pereira]

These are the results obtained from Living DNA.

View attachment 13804

It is impressive how Living DNA assigns percentages for Great Britain not in national terms but for each region, which also makes them more confusing.

Anglo-Saxon Migrations to Great Britain (Anglos and Saxons origin is near Franks zone) and like your y-dna Flanders zone

 

[Tautalus]

Thanks Duarte, I'm almost in the same situation as you in your branch, but you at least have the company of “El Cordobés” .

Kirgonix, your theory is quite interesting. You had already made a post about Sancho I and the role he played in the colonization of the kingdom, but at the time I didn't associate him with my haplogroup. And in fact, as you discovered, one of the lands that the Wikipedia article mentions (São Vicente da Beira) is very close to the region where my paternal family comes from. It is a very real possibility that this haplogroup could have come to Portugal through these settlers.

 

[Luso]

my ancient results:

my y-dna map:

 

[Kirgonix Pereira]

my ancient results:

my y-dna map:

You are from South Portugal, i'm i correct?
I've been researching (I don't know if your y-dna was a predictor or if you bought a y-dna test from ftdna) however if we both belong to this branch and based on the density I suspect it could be related to the Túrdulos.

It is merely my theory, however, based on density, and taking into account that the Lusitanians and Galicia area are the areas where this haplogroup is smaller, I believe that we are part of the Celtic tribes of Iberia, more specifically the turdules.

I leave below two maps from which I based this conclusion.

 

[Luso]

You are from South Portugal, i'm i correct?
I've been researching (I don't know if your y-dna was a predictor or if you bought a y-dna test from ftdna) however if we both belong to this branch and based on the density I suspect it could be related to the Túrdulos.

It is merely my theory, however, based on density, and taking into account that the Lusitanians and Galicia area are the areas where this haplogroup is smaller, I believe that we are part of the Celtic tribes of Iberia, more specifically the turdules.

I leave below two maps from which I based this conclusion.

I am indeed from southern Portugal. Thing about southern Portuguese from what i've heard, especially us in the coastal areas. We aren't really super native to the land due to the history of repopulation from center and north Portugal, which probably is why we are quite homogeneous as a country today.

In terms of the theory it seems plausible. I do believe this y-dna can very possibly have been found amongst the Lusitanians and other tribes around there. We did have a sample in roman times from the conimbriga site, we also have other samples from ancient Palencia, Leon, Burgos dating to roman times and further back. So this haplogroup was most def. a celtic tribal marker for individuals around these area. As more Portuguese and iberians in general test we'll see the distribution better.

 

[Luso]

and here is the confirmation:

 

[Kirgonix Pereira]

and here is the confirmation:

I am awaiting the FTDNA results.
We're probably Celtiberian brothers then

Anyway, I'll wait for my results to see if clade finder got the prediction right.

 

[Tautalus]

My Y-DNA haplogroup migration path according to FTDNA Globetrekker.

 

[Kirgonix Pereira]

My Y-DNA haplogroup migration path according to FTDNA Globetrekker.

What is your theory for the story of your y-dna?