Ancient Genomes suggest Basque are descended of Late Neolithic Iberians

Angela said:
The earliest date I've seen for Los Millares is about 3200 BC, so that's about a one hundred year difference from the date of this particular sample (latest date of 3362BC). However, the date from the paper is calibrated, I don't know about the general Los Millares date. I'll have to check.

The authors didn't publish a y dna clade for ATP3, probably because it's so low coverage, so all we have is that one call by Genetiker.

In terms of Neolithic people we seem to have found the blue eyed genes in Central Europe so far, yes? Interesting that they have the 24A5 but only a bit of the 42A5 in terms of pigmentation. Oetzi had both. What about Remedello? Do we know?

P.S. The authors do make it clear these are pre-Beaker.
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I see Genetiker link for that presumed R1b individual: he has many calls on multiple haplogroups! How is possible? I see Haplogroup Q, haplogroup E, haplogroup R... Perhaps Gemetiker hopped to hurry conclusions...

The authors give only two Y-DNA results.
 
I highly doubt M269/L23 will pop. Proponents of West Asian L23 theory say it was a Chalcolithic farming expansion from Anatolia to the Danube, not Cardial/LBK movements.I think LBK = G with some J2Cardial Ware = EV13, G, J2
 
Angela said:
Well, it will be more interesting if the early samples are R1b M269. :)

Years ago, when we were still dealing with just modern YDna, I suggested that perhaps R1b moved west ahead of the main "Yamnaya" type steppe migrations. I had speculated that maybe R1b was a male mediated elite group that had moved into the Balkans and/or the Aegean very early, and that then the collapse of the late Neolithic civilizations forced some of these people westward.

I saw it as mostly a sea borne migration, moving into southern Italy and then onwards, with a major staging area somewhere around the Rhone. I think I based it on papers that came out around that time that showed a lot of R1b diversity from around the Rhone into the Alps.

All of the subsequent papers on ancient dna led me to abandon that theory.

I'd like to know the Ydna and autosomal signature of those people from Los Millares and Zambujal, who suddenly out of nowhere, around 2000 BC show evidence of very eastern Med type fortified cities etc.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castro_of_Zambujal
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Los_Millares

http://www.academia.edu/2923221/Soc..._at_Valencina_de_la_Concepción_Seville_Spain_
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Copper in places like Cyprus, Corsica, Iberia - seems likely they might have at least some sea contact with each other.
 
Angela said:
The earliest date I've seen for Los Millares is about 3200 BC, so that's about a one hundred year difference from the date of this particular sample (latest date of 3362BC). However, the date from the paper is calibrated, I don't know about the general Los Millares date. I'll have to check.

The authors didn't publish a y dna clade for ATP3, probably because it's so low coverage, so all we have is that one call by Genetiker.

In terms of Neolithic people we seem to have found the blue eyed genes in Central Europe so far, yes? Interesting that they have the 24A5 but only a bit of the 42A5 in terms of pigmentation. Oetzi had both. What about Remedello? Do we know?

P.S. The authors do make it clear these are pre-Beaker.
Click to expand...

afaik the walls of Los Millares collapsed and were rebuild 3025 BC
dates for the 1st construction of Los Millares are unknown

probably explorers where at first attracted by alluvial copper which maby natives had allready found
after they would have been looking for copper ores

don't know whether in Atapuerca it was the same situation
 
I'd like to say that a Late Neolithic origin for the Basques is very much compatible with the linguistic evidence: Proto-Basque was decisively not the language of Mesolithic hunter-gatherers, and given that its an isolate language, the notion "Basques were recent (Bronze Age) immigrants" decisively doesn't hold up. If the Beaker culture started out as a native, western European phenomenon (that only later got 'hijacked' by Indo-Europeans in Central Europe), as I recall Maciamo asserted a while back, it would also explain why Basque has its own vocabulary for metallurgy. Just saying. :smile:
 
Fire Haired14 said:
Everyone is low in 42A5 till Corded Ware. I didn't know Oetzi had both. One Remedello had CG(~2900 BC) and one CC(~2000 BC). A rise in 42A5 looks like a Pan-European event that didn't affect West Asia much. It looks like Blue eyes were higher in the Eastern/Northern(Hungary-Sweden) half of the Neolithic world and could be why the same divide exists today.
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Maybe you were right to doubt...I went back to Keller et al 2012, and Otzi is derived for SLC24A5. I don't know where I got the idea he was derived for SLC 42A5. Did Genetiker run his genome for depigmentation snps?

I wouldn't necessarily say that everyone was low in SLC42A5 until Corded Ware. These are Genetiker's findings for 42A5:

I don't think these groups were low in it.
Motala 4/7 GG (derived), 2/7 CG Heterozygous, 1/7 CC ancestral
Karelia CG Heterozygous
Samara GG Derived

The early LBK had it, but at lower levels:
LBK EN 2/9 GG derived, 1/9 CG Heterozygous, 5/9 CC ancestral

I don't think these three groups are all that different:
Corded Ware 2/3 GG derived, 1/3 CG Heterozygous
Unetice 2/6 GG Derived, 3/6 GC Heterozygous, 1/6 CC derived
Bell Beaker 3/5 GG Derived, 1/5 CG Heterozygous, 1/5 CC ancestral

Do the studies agree on these snps?

The only MN results I saw on Genetiker were:
Baalberge: 2/2 CC Ancestral

Esperstedt:1/1 CG Heterozygous

Remedello (according to your data)
1/1 CG Heterozygous

Do you have any other results for MN samples?

I would say that European levels for 42A5 have risen everywhere, even in the far northeast, which would go to Mathiesen et al's point about selection within the last 5,000 years.
 
what about the H2 individual ?

it has also be found in Starcevo


[TD="width: 86"] Starčevo [/TD]
[TD="width: 86"] Hungary [/TD]
[TD="width: 86"] Alsónyék-Bátaszék [BAM25] [/TD]
[TD="width: 30"] M [/TD]
[TD="width: 86"] 5710-5550 BC [/TD]
[TD="width: 106"] H2 [/TD]
[TD="width: 86"] L281+ [/TD]
[TD="width: 121"] markers for F: (P142+, P145+, P138+, P316+, P14+, P159+) Reported as F* in Szécsényi-Nagy [/TD]
[TD="width: 86"] N1a1a1b, reported as N1a1 in
Szécsényi-Nagy [/TD]
[TD="width: 86"] Szécsényi-Nagy 2014;Haak 2015 [/TD]

where did they come from ?
are there still H2 individuals among modern European ?
afaik the H in modern Europe are gipsies, they arrived just 1500 year ago and are not H2
 
H2 is not Gypsy, Indian H is in H1

H2 is the ex F3-M282
ATP2 displayed the derived allele for nine Y chromosome markers (Table S5); with all of the
markers providing phylogenetic support for ATP2 belonging to haplogroup H2. These
markers included: L985, L1013 and L1053 (A1); M235, P159 and P187 (F); L279, L281 and
P96 (H2). Previously labeled haplogroup F3, H2 was recently redefined on the basis of an
overlap between the datasets of [64] and [65] [63]. It was found that the two haplogroups, HM69
and F3-M282, shared a root defined by the marker M3035. While only a few H2
individuals have ever been found, the haplogroup appears to have a west Eurasian
distribution; with a low level Middle Eastern presence in modern-day Iran, Turkey, Bahrain,
Kuwait and Qatar (Family Tree DNA, [66]), as well as minor occurrences in modern-day
England, France, Sardinia, Sweden and the Netherlands (Family Tree DNA, [64,65,67]). H2
also seems to occur at low frequencies in Neolithic samples [68].
Click to expand...
 
The paper says that El Portalon farmers assimilated relatively many hunter-gatherers:

http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2015/09/02/1509851112.full.pdf

the Chalcolithic El Portalón individuals additionally mixed with local southwestern hunter–gatherers. The proportion of hunter–gatherer-related admixture into early farmers also increased over the course of two millennia. The Chalcolithic El Portalón individuals showed greatest genetic affinity to modern-day Basques, who have long been considered linguistic and genetic isolates linked to the Mesolithic whereas all other European early farmers show greater genetic similarity to modern-day Sardinians
Click to expand...

The same process of assimilation took place for example in northern parts of Europe:

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthr...Iberian-farmer&p=107781&viewfull=1#post107781

(...) Genome-wide comparisons show that a Funnel Beaker female from Sweden and contemporary farmers from Germany, despite being most closely related to early European farmers, had somewhat more hunter gatherer ancestry. The same is true of their probable source population in Hungary [LBK in Transdanubia], and indeed farmers in Spain between 4000 and 3000 BC. It seems that as farmers extended their territory, they absorbed some of the foragers who were being pushed to the fringes and ultimately to the extinction of their way of life. (...)
Click to expand...
 
If memory serves, there's some of this H2 (formerly F3) in Sardinia. I think it's in the Francalacci paper.
 
Angela said:
If memory serves, there's some of this H2 (formerly F3) in Sardinia. I think it's in the Francalacci paper.
Click to expand...

there is also one in the hungarian samples
 
bicicleur said:
what about the H2 individual ?

it has also be found in Starcevo

Starčevo

[TD="width: 86"] Hungary [/TD]
[TD="width: 86"] Alsónyék-Bátaszék [BAM25] [/TD]
[TD="width: 30"] M [/TD]
[TD="width: 86"] 5710-5550 BC [/TD]
[TD="width: 106"] H2 [/TD]
[TD="width: 86"] L281+ [/TD]
[TD="width: 121"] markers for F: (P142+, P145+, P138+, P316+, P14+, P159+) Reported as F* in Szécsényi-Nagy [/TD]
[TD="width: 86"] N1a1a1b, reported as N1a1 in
Szécsényi-Nagy [/TD]
[TD="width: 86"] Szécsényi-Nagy 2014;Haak 2015 [/TD]

where did they come from ?
are there still H2 individuals among modern European ?
afaik the H in modern Europe are gipsies, they arrived just 1500 year ago and are not H2
Click to expand...

for a very rare ydna marker, these H2 have been popping up everywhere in ancient europe
 
Angela said:
Maybe you were right to doubt...I went back to Keller et al 2012, and Otzi is derived for SLC24A5. I don't know where I got the idea he was derived for SLC 42A5. Did Genetiker run his genome for depigmentation snps?

I wouldn't necessarily say that everyone was low in SLC42A5 until Corded Ware. These are Genetiker's findings for 42A5:

I don't think these groups were low in it.
Motala 4/7 GG (derived), 2/7 CG Heterozygous, 1/7 CC ancestral
Karelia CG Heterozygous
Samara GG Derived

The early LBK had it, but at lower levels:
LBK EN 2/9 GG derived, 1/9 CG Heterozygous, 5/9 CC ancestral

I don't think these three groups are all that different:
Corded Ware 2/3 GG derived, 1/3 CG Heterozygous
Unetice 2/6 GG Derived, 3/6 GC Heterozygous, 1/6 CC derived
Bell Beaker 3/5 GG Derived, 1/5 CG Heterozygous, 1/5 CC ancestral

Do the studies agree on these snps?

The only MN results I saw on Genetiker were:
Baalberge: 2/2 CC Ancestral

Esperstedt:1/1 CG Heterozygous

Remedello (according to your data)
1/1 CG Heterozygous

Do you have any other results for MN samples?

I would say that European levels for 42A5 have risen everywhere, even in the far northeast, which would go to Mathiesen et al's point about selection within the last 5,000 years.
Click to expand...

Genetiker did all of the Haak samples for hair and eye colour on his site
 
Angela said:
Maybe you were right to doubt...I went back to Keller et al 2012, and Otzi is derived for SLC24A5. I don't know where I got the idea he was derived for SLC 42A5. Did Genetiker run his genome for depigmentation snps?
Click to expand...

No but I'll ask him to get calls for Otzi.

Angela said:
I wouldn't necessarily say that everyone was low in SLC42A5 until Corded Ware.
Click to expand...

You're right. We don't have a whole lot a data and Ancient DNA has thrown out surprises before.


Angela said:
Do the studies agree on these snps?
Click to expand...

I emailed the lead author Iain Mathieson of the paper "Eight thousand years of natural selection in Europe"and asked him if Geneticker's results are correct. And he said all the results look correct. Genome bloggers converted much of the data of ancient DNA from Haak and Allentoft into 23andme format, and I looked at the calls. I think only a few times they dis agreed with Geneticker.

Angela said:
Do you have any other results for MN samples?
Click to expand...

No
 
Since portalon matches ancient etruscans and I now think etruscans did not come from Anatolia from the lydians ( lydians fought phyrians in 500BC in central anatolia and no mention of association by greek writers of lydians with Etruscans from this written war was noted) , can there be a possibility that some of these ancient portalon basques migrated to Italy?
 
Sile said:
for a very rare ydna marker, these H2 have been popping up everywhere in ancient europe
Click to expand...

I suspect their origin is paleolithic India and they survived LGM in SW Asia.
Then they came along with farmers/herders to Europe.
Are there still H2 in India?
 
arvistro said:
Crazy! No ANE Basque R1b 3500 BC...
Now, that is a rumour.
Click to expand...


Thats not crazy, thats just what I tried to explain the people in the comment section of Eurogenes. R1b is a far too old Haplogroup. By Neolithic , R1b must have spred around West, Central Asia and the Steppes already with completely different autosomal DNA. Some R1b (such as V88) reached the Levant with EEF ancestry and no sign of ANE other R1b such as found among the Samara EHG had completely different autosomal DNA and R1b (M343, l23) might have been widesred among teal eastern farmers.
 
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Alan

But according to Genetiker who found this R1b ( it was absent from the study ) the ATP3 has a Caucasian admixture.
BTW the paper also lacks an admixture run for ATP3. Maybe it was considered too low coverage.

I agree with You that R1b is old. So they could have different admixtures in various places. But the Z2103 and L51 are not old.
This ATP3 is has no call for L23 and L51.

ATP3, Pre-Beaker Copper Age, 3516–3362 BC

  • 32.47% Southern-European-Caucasoid
  • 31.97% Northern-Middle-Eastern-Caucasoid
  • 14.04% Northern-European-Caucasoid
  • 6.34% European-hunter-gatherer-Caucasoid
  • 5.75% Bushman-and-Pygmy
  • 3.82% Veddoid-Caucasoid-hybrid
  • 3.55% Southern-Middle-Eastern-Caucasoid
  • 2.05% Western-Negroid
  • 0.01% Taiwanese-aborigine-Mongoloid
  • 0.00% Australoid
  • 0.00% Eastern-Negroid
  • 0.00% Eskimo
  • 0.00% Itelmen-and-Koryak
  • 0.00% Northern-Amerindian
  • 0.00% Northern-Mongoloid
  • 0.00% Southern-Amerindian
  • 0.00% Southern-Mongoloid
Click to expand...
 
Arame said:
Alan

But according to Genetiker who found this R1b ( it was absent from the study ) the ATP3 has a Caucasian admixture.
BTW the paper also lacks an admixture run for ATP3. Maybe it was considered too low coverage.

I agree with You that R1b is old. So they could have different admixtures in various places. But the Z2103 and L51 are not old.
This ATP3 is has no call for L23 and L51.
Click to expand...

Yes ATP3 is m269 which is ancestral to l23. So yes no doubt it has heavy Caucaso_Gedrosian admixture. But I was talking about the 5000 year old Neolithic Iberian sample which is most likely R1b V88 and he was typically EEF.

So as I said R1b was widespred on the whole globe and I believe it ultimately started off somewhere between the Iranian Plateau and SouthCentral Asia as something Kalash like. mixing with farmer DNA and becoming Teal component. Some of it moved North to Eastern H&G and became EHG (Aren't there signs of Gedrosia admixture in EHG too?). Anothzer major wave moved deeper into Western Asia where a branch of it (V88) moved into levant and assimilated into the EEF culture. Other branches (m343, m269 and downstream clades) stayed among their Teal(Eastern Farmer) cousins in Kurdistan/Armenia/Azerbaijan/Iran and moved into the Caucasus/Maykop Culture (L23) From there they mixed with the Eastern Hunter and Gatherers and became Yamna. Since Yamna R1b is very different from EHG R1b and there are thousands of years in between them.
 
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