Asian in a European American?

[MsJ]

I wonder if some kind soul would like to look at this with me and help me figure out the common thread here in context?

What I know:
The paper trail of 5/8 of my great grandparents with all coming from Germany (mainly Alsace region), and the British Isles (mostly Scotland), with some Dutch and a Swiss line. I do not, apart from the Swiss, know of any ancestry south of Alsace.

What I don't know:
Father of 1/8 great grand parent and full parentage of 2/8. They both may have been adopted and were from an area with a large influx of migrant workers during the time of their births.

All great grandparents lived in/around Appalachia US from the early 1900's onward.

I understand that the majority of my DNA matches my paper trail. What I am interested in, of course, is the unknown.

I started with 23andme.

Even in speculative mode, there is nothing that I find out of the ordinary apart from a trace of Finnish and Southern European. As an American I figured SSA would be there in some amount, so that isn't very surprising either.

So I uploaded to a few other sites.
FTDNA:

The European is 79% West and Central Europe and 18% British Isles with the SSA and a hit for S. Asia.

My Heritage:

It also picked up the SSA and gave me a huge amount of W. Asian assignment.

And finally, a sample from GEDMatch Eurogenes K15:


The Oracle shows best match as

[TD="align: center"]

+	@
+	@
+	@
+	@
+	@

[TD="align: center"] # [/TD]
[TD="width: 15"] [/TD]
[TD="colspan: 3"] Primary Population (source) [/TD]
[TD="colspan: 3"] Secondary Population (source) [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] Distance [/TD]

[TD="width: 20, align: center"]1[/TD]
[TD="width: 15"] [/TD]
[TD="width: 30, align: right"]95.2%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]Southwest_English[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: right"]4.8%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]Burusho[/TD]

[TD="width: 50, align: right"]2.45[/TD]

[TD="width: 20, align: center"]2[/TD]
[TD="width: 15"] [/TD]
[TD="width: 30, align: right"]96%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]Southwest_English[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: right"]4%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]Kshatriya[/TD]

[TD="width: 50, align: right"]2.49[/TD]

[TD="width: 20, align: center"]3[/TD]
[TD="width: 15"] [/TD]
[TD="width: 30, align: right"]95.7%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]Southwest_English[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: right"]4.3%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]Brahmin_UP[/TD]

[TD="width: 50, align: right"]2.49[/TD]

[TD="width: 20, align: center"]4[/TD]
[TD="width: 15"] [/TD]
[TD="width: 30, align: right"]95.2%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]Southwest_English[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: right"]4.8%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]Punjabi_Jat[/TD]

[TD="width: 50, align: right"]2.5[/TD]

[TD="width: 20, align: center"]5[/TD]
[TD="width: 15"] [/TD]
[TD="width: 30, align: right"]95.6%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]Southwest_English[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: right"]4.4%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]Sindhi[/TD]

[TD="width: 50, align: right"]2.51[/TD]

[/TD]
[TD="width: 15"][/TD]
[TD="width: 30, align: right"][/TD]
[TD="width: 200"][/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: right"][/TD]
[TD="width: 200"][/TD]

[TD="width: 50, align: right"][/TD]

Most of the GedMatch calculator Oracles mix a large amount of Northern Europe with between 3 and 10 percent med, middle eastern or Caucus area thrown in.

So, I'm trying to figure out if this might be a possible Romanichal connection? I have a small paper trail that this could be possible.

Or is this something ancient that is just sticking around?

Any input is greatly appreciated!

 

[Angela]

First of all, West Asian shouldn't be compared to East Asian, Central Asian or South Asian. Those are very different things.

The East Asian is so small that it could very well be within the margin of error. If not, it's probably something ancient that came with Indo-Europeans.

The West Asian showing up could very well be just because in this company's algorithm you're just a bit more southeastern shifted than the average person in your area. Again, probably not within genealogical time, although it's possible.

I personally don't take any of the Eurogenes calculators based on modern populations very seriously. In your case, since no other calculator has picked this up, I wouldn't pay too much attention to it if it were me, but even if you do, it could be that this just means you're more "Gedrosia" shifted perhaps than the average. That also might have come along with Indo-Europeans.

Of course, unless you can break through that genealogical wall you may never be absolutely sure, but as I said, if something like 23andme didn't find it, I wouldn't give it too much credence. When there's actual, modern, South Asian, they find it.

I hope you realize that this is all speculation. Sometimes it's like reading tea leaves.

 

[MsJ]

First of all, West Asian shouldn't be compared to East Asian, Central Asian or South Asian. Those are very different things.

The East Asian is so small that it could very well be within the margin of error. If not, it's probably something ancient that came with Indo-Europeans.

The West Asian showing up could very well be just because in this company's algorithm you're just a bit more southeastern shifted than the average person in your area. Again, probably not within genealogical time, although it's possible.

I personally don't take any of the Eurogenes calculators based on modern populations very seriously. In your case, since no other calculator has picked this up, I wouldn't pay too much attention to it if it were me, but even if you do, it could be that this just means you're more "Gedrosia" shifted perhaps than the average. That also might have come along with Indo-Europeans.

Of course, unless you can break through that genealogical wall you may never be absolutely sure, but as I said, if something like 23andme didn't find it, I wouldn't give it too much credence. When there's actual, modern, South Asian, they find it.

I hope you realize that this is all speculation. Sometimes it's like reading tea leaves.

I do realize that it's speculation. That's the part I both love and hate.

I also think that maybe it's tied to the SSA. I have African American cousins that match me on the area of the chromosome that is showing SSA so I'm pretty sure it's real. The Asian elements may have been mixed together, but the SSA is on Father's side the possible Romani is Mother's. I'm including the Gene Plaza, We Genes and DNA land here as well. Because, why not add more nonsense?
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More "Gedrosia" shifted is...? I tried to find an answer but I didn't see anything other than folks arguing about whether or not they were.

 

[Angela]

I do realize that it's speculation. That's the part I both love and hate.

I also think that maybe it's tied to the SSA. I have African American cousins that match me on the area of the chromosome that is showing SSA so I'm pretty sure it's real. The Asian elements may have been mixed together, but the SSA is on Father's side the possible Romani is Mother's. I'm including the Gene Plaza, We Genes and DNA land here as well. Because, why not add more nonsense?
View attachment 9389
View attachment 9390View attachment 9391View attachment 9391

More "Gedrosia" shifted is...? I tried to find an answer but I didn't see anything other than folks arguing about whether or not they were.

The small amount of SSA is probably real. You're not the only white American from the south to be surprised by small amounts this way.

You can read the 23andme paper on the phenomenon here:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4289685/

If you go to under 2% the percentages go higher.


South Asian (Sindh) ancestry is an entirely different thing. African-Americans have no such ancestry.

As none of the other tests show any South Asian, I think it's just an artifact of that particular Eurogenes run, and I wouldn't pay much attention to it.

 

[LeBrok]

The small amount of SSA is probably real. You're not the only white American from the south to be surprised by small amounts this way.

You can read the 23andme paper on the phenomenon here:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4289685/

If you go to under 2% the percentages go higher.


South Asian (Sindh) ancestry is an entirely different thing. African-Americans have no such ancestry.

As none of the other tests show any South Asian, I think it's just an artifact of that particular Eurogenes run, and I wouldn't pay much attention to it.

Interesting, Louisiana might be the most genetically-ethnically mixed US state, unlike Mississippi, next door, which stays so pure British.

 

[Angela]

Interesting, Louisiana might be the most genetically-ethnically mixed US state, unlike Mississippi, next door, which stays so pure British.

It's an excellent study, with lots of other very interesting information, although Redmayne seems to object to it.

I think Louisiana may be a slightly different case because in addition to the fact that slaves were such a large percentage of the population, it was ruled by the Spanish and the French for a long time, and they had a slightly different attitude toward admixture with their slaves and toward the children produced with their African slaves. There was a large mixed race population in Louisiana. You can see there was admixture with the remaining Amerindians as well. The children of those relationships were freed, educated, sometimes in Europe, or given a trade.

The system of placage and the "quadroon balls" that facilitated long term relationships with free mixed race women, which was a part of the system, is unique in America. The increasingly "white looking" children, one-quarter, one-eighth, one-sixteenth, and less African, and educated or with a trade, would have had an easier time "passing" into white society.

I don't know enough about South Carolina's history to understand why they might have slightly higher numbers.

The numbers are probably a bit higher than that 5% in some places. As I said, they didn't include in that map the percentage of the population which has 1-2% African.

Oh, another thing. Mississippi isn't pure British. That's not true of anywhere in the south. That particular graphic only shows "self-reported" European Americans with more than 2% African. Very large percentages of the population in all the southern states, and elsewhere, are African-American, who are sometimes twenty percent European. There was much more gene flow the other way.

It's actually more informative, I think, to visualize it on a county by county basis. Out of the south, it's concentrated in urban areas where African-Americans migrated to work in factories, etc.

 

[MsJ]

This is one of my favorite topics! I am not sure if anyone here has seen Hamilton (the musical) but the writer and principal actor, Lin-Manuel Miranda, has an interesting story that goes along with race, Louisiana and admixture. His ancestor mentioned here is the brother of one of my ancestors, Susannah Townes. I actually thought this was my SSA link, but it's not. The Townes family were white slave owners. http://www.megansmolenyak.com/lin-manuel-mirandas-revolutionary-ancestors/

My father swore we were "pure white" (what does that even mean?) and when I narrowed down the SSA link through the family tree, it was my father's grandmother. Her husband was a grand wizard in the KKK. Now isn't that some stuff?

But even though I haven't narrowed down the exact ancestor who was AA, I understand in general how it happened to be there. The Asian (Southern, Central and Western) interests me more because I'm not aware of any ancestors since before colonial times that would have those origins.