Black Lake origin of R1a, R1b and proto-indo-european continuum language ?

[halfalp]

Hi, i'm new on Eupedia and i'm not very billingual, so sorry for potential faults.

I have an idea who break my mind, indo-european question, of course. I look Eupedia articles and Maciamo genetics of population maps by a few time, and it's a great work, but like a lot of people here, i guess, i think those maps who represent modern genetic view is not concerned by antics view of. Some people argue that, R1a is pontic-steppe native and R1b some of kind mesopotamian population of their debut ( neolithic ? ) migrations. For a modern person its sounds like R1a is mongoloid and R1b some kind of proto-semitic. But is it possible that black sea in 6000 - 3500 bc, aprox... was a lake and not a sea, and that the region was not seperated like dardanelle detroit, but a population continuum of balkans, pontic-steppe and near east and then R1a was just in north, and R1b in south of this lake, Indo-european languages and Semitic languages were certainly clothes and the two language are synthetic of what i know, maybe mutual influence at that continuum time. I have learn on the black sea wikipedia article that, there is a theory about the fact that the black sea was an lake and with the warming of climat, become a sea, and the ethno-cultural, linguistico continuum of that ( black sea ) region create certain " cult " or " idea " like biblical deluge and other stuf. Give me your thoughts about that, if my thread is understandable. I know that is a poorely thread with a lot of projection. Sorry for my english too, but i have so much questions in my head and maybe the former are not the best.

 

[dodona]

have you heard of the Khvalynian Sea?

The Caspian Depression was itself a sign of another important aspectof the Pontic-Caspian environment: its instabiliry. The Black and CaspianSeas were not placid and unchanging. Between about 14,000 and 12,000BCE the warming climate that ended the last Ice Age melted the northernglaciers and the permafrost, releasing their combined meltwater in atorrential surge that flowed south into the Caspian basin. The late Ice-AgeCaspian ballooned into a vast interior sea designated the Khvalynian Sea. For two thousand years the northern shoreline stood near Saratov on themiddle Volga and Orenburg on the Ural River, restricting east-west movementsouth of the Ural Mountains. The Khvalynian Sea separated the already noticeably different late-glacial forager cultures that prospered eastand west of the Ural Mountains’ Around 11,000-9,000 BCE the waterfinally rose high enough to overflow catastrophically through a southwestern outlet, the Manych Depression north of the North Caucasus Mountains,and a violent flood poured into the Black Sea, which was then well below the world ocean level. The Black Sea basin filled up until it overflowed,also through a southwestern outlet, the narrow Bosporus valley,and finally poured into the Aegean. By 8000 BCE the Black Sea, now about the size of California and seven thousand feet deep, was in equilibriumwith the Aegean and the world ocean. The Caspian had fallen backinto its own basin and remained isolated thereafter. The Black Sea becamethe Pontus Euxeinos of the Greeks, from which we derive the term Ponticfor the Black Sea region in general. The North Caspian Depression, oncethe bottom of the northern end of the Khvalynian Sea, was left an enormousflat plain of salty clays, incongruous beds of sea shells, and sands,dotted with brackish lakes and covered with dry steppes that graded intored sand deserts (the Ryn Peski) just north of the Caspian Sea. Herds ofsaiga antelopes, onagers, and horses were hunted across these salineplains by small bands of post-glacial Mesolithic and Neolithic hunters. But, by the time the sea receded, they had become very different culturallyand probably linguistically on the eastern and western sides of the UralCaspianfrontier. When domesticated cattle were accepted by societieswest of the Urals, they were rejected by those east of the Urals, who remained foragers for thousands of years.

The horse the wheel and language, David Antony, pp 136/7

 

[halfalp]

Hi Dodona, thanks for the return.

I've heard about the book of Anthony, a reference in the indo-european theories. I also heard about the kuma manych depression but it's very difficult to synthetise all the informations that you've write, because my deficience in english, but indo-european and in general anthropo-ethnology seems to be like pontic-caspian environment, evolutionary. I'm tried to understand and make correlations with R1a, R1b, indo-europeans language ( is it a native archaic language ? or an pigdin of many influence ? ) and their homelands in the neolithic. Mesolithic is an hunter-gatherer-like and nomadic way of life, so difficult to extrapolate.

 

[LeBrok]

Welcome to Eupedia halfalp.

 

[MOESAN]

The question of the link between Y R1a R1b and I-Ean languages is one, the question of the older origins of R1a R1b in another one I think. I see not the places of demographic development of the 2 Haplos rather in Central Asia and East Eurasia. the curious links of PIE with some Caucasus and Uralic languages doesn't plaid for an only South Caucasus origin for achieved PIE, but who know?

 

[RobertColumbia]

...Indo-european languages and Semitic languages were certainly clothes and the two language are synthetic of what i know, maybe mutual influence at that continuum time. I have learn on the black sea wikipedia article that, there is a theory about the fact that the black sea was an lake and with the warming of climat, become a sea, and the ethno-cultural, linguistico continuum of that ( black sea ) region create certain " cult " or " idea " like biblical deluge and other stuf....

Indo-European languages and Semitic languages both have grammatical gender, something that is otherwise very rare. It could be the case that this is due to early borrowing and/or a common origin.

I certainly think that there is a likelihood that the Biblical Deluge, like most legends, is based on real historical events. This is not to say that the version we have now can be shown to be 100% correct in every detail, only that the story is not likely to be 100% fictional.

Sumerian writers (cf. the Epic of Gilgamesh and the Sumerian King List) also wrote about a catastrophic flood and also claim (similarly to the Bible) that people lived for longer lifespans before the flood. It's hard to believe that there isn't a common origin to this story.

 

[halfalp]

It is pretty sur that R1a and R1b are Proto-Siberian population originaly, but the R1a and R1b in the chalco-neolithic seems to be a melting pot of a lot of influence, some cultures seems very hunter-gatherer chamanist like others pur pastoralist, others farming. I'am have for example, conviction that, R1b west european indo-europeans migrations is correlate with Anatolian / Etruscian people, for reason of some link with the two cultural horizon. Same of Sumer, what we know about Sumer, modern term for an neolithic cultural horizon, but not very ethno-genetic proof of whatever, city-state are by nature independant and so, an political decentralisation in a same cultural horizon, R1b, Anatolian peoples, Sumer, Centum languages with the proto-indo-european language native from Anatolia-North iran, Mesopotamia, maybe the indo-european question is very simple, an R1b pre-proto-indo-european who migrate in africa for first and anatolia, later maybe become vasconic peoples and south caucasus ( wich become pontic steppe indo europeans ). R1a maybe is eastern hunter gatherer with proto siberian mesolithic origin who was influenced culturaly by neolithic farmer in balkans pre-european people like Cucteni and i personal dont think that Corded ware is an occidental cultures of Yamna but more an Yamnaic influence of Sredny Stog peoples. Like i learn on Eupedia some people says that indo-europeans migrations are only correlate with R1a1a and R1bM269 but maybe theyr was two migrations, one R1b proto-indo-europeans and J - R1b anatolians from where comes vasconic peoples Rhaetians, and later Etruscians who influenced first italo-celtic cultures ( theyr is common point with irish celtique culture and etruscians ) and of course the celtique Q / P mutations. So my thread like the others are pretty extrapolations, but i think here, everybody can know where i wanted to go. Please give me you returns about my thoughts, and dont hesitate to judge if you think that my ideas is lack of content. I know that what i exposed is not new, but i want to learn more about history of populations and firstly indo-europeans cultural horizons.

 

[Alan]

Hi, i'm new on Eupedia and i'm not very billingual, so sorry for potential faults.

I have an idea who break my mind, indo-european question, of course. I look Eupedia articles and Maciamo genetics of population maps by a few time, and it's a great work, but like a lot of people here, i guess, i think those maps who represent modern genetic view is not concerned by antics view of. Some people argue that, R1a is pontic-steppe native and R1b some of kind mesopotamian population of their debut ( neolithic ? ) migrations. For a modern person its sounds like R1a is mongoloid and R1b some kind of proto-semitic. But is it possible that black sea in 6000 - 3500 bc, aprox... was a lake and not a sea, and that the region was not seperated like dardanelle detroit, but a population continuum of balkans, pontic-steppe and near east and then R1a was just in north, and R1b in south of this lake, Indo-european languages and Semitic languages were certainly clothes and the two language are synthetic of what i know, maybe mutual influence at that continuum time. I have learn on the black sea wikipedia article that, there is a theory about the fact that the black sea was an lake and with the warming of climat, become a sea, and the ethno-cultural, linguistico continuum of that ( black sea ) region create certain " cult " or " idea " like biblical deluge and other stuf. Give me your thoughts about that, if my thread is understandable. I know that is a poorely thread with a lot of projection. Sorry for my english too, but i have so much questions in my head and maybe the former are not the best.

Sorry but I stopped reading here. I have never came across a sane person considering R1a as "Mongoloid" and R1b as proto Semitic.

 

[halfalp]

But somehow it's totaly logical, R1a is formerly siberian, and surely came in europe ( eastern europe ) with mongoloids haplogroups like y-dna C6 or Mtdna X ( wich is also in native america or the theory that X came in america in a mesolithic arctic migration... ), C4, Z1. Plus, the Near East, what i consider as proto-semitic, came with R1b and maybe G,J with a large mtdna near eastern ( J,T, ). Steppic indo-europeans are surely a melting pot of differents dna and R1a and R1b, formerly in the pontic steppe stay with themselves, i don't think that R1a and R1b had relationships, it's more that recently, final Yamna that peoples mix each others. I'm tring to put forward the total and pragmatic proto-indo-european culture they were certainly not ethnic but more based on a social caracterisation. It's why the idea of clientelisme, a strong men take on his wing poor people to defend them and the people promess loyalty to the chiefthain ( Cliens / Pater-Patronus relationship ) or more ancient some kind of ( People / Despote, Dems patis, house master, chief of the clan, ruler... ).

 

[Alan]

But somehow it's totaly logical, R1a is formerly siberian, and surely came in europe ( eastern europe ) with mongoloids haplogroups like y-dna C6 or Mtdna X

NO it's certanly not. I would need to start all over again to explain you why.

C is one of the oldest Haplogroups brother to D and close cousin to E and F.

C predates any modern racial group.

R1a is not formely Siberian I don't know how you even come to this idea. R1a is not even diverse in Sibera. You are extremely misinformed in this case.
R* was found in Siberia but in a person who was genetically absolutely not mongoloid. The race which nowadays dominates a region doesn't tell much about the the race which once dominated it thousand of years earlier.

X is not a mongoloid mtDNA either. And the only prominent R1b subclade among Semites is R1b v88. They "lack" virtually 80% of other R1b clades. Not only that Semites are part of the Afro_Asiatic language family and among this language family E1b is the sharing point.

So don't get me wrong I am not trying to be harsh but no your statement absolutely doesn't make sense.

 

[halfalp]

Says that C haplogroup is cousin of D and E and F in my mesolithic-neolithic idea is like says all humans are cousins, so in a case it is, but if it would be the point, this site would have no reason to exist. Plus C y-dna haplogroups is only about East eurasia nativly, the rarest C in west like spain mesolithic blue eyes men, are certainly come with R1 by Siberia from the eurasian steppe highway. However, R1 or R1a is clearly not really different only if you consider that humans are melting largely before neolithic than haplogroups meens nothing for argue about an origin... X mtdna haplogroup is Native in eurasia and exist in native america, so central north asia - siberia. Can be the point of the migration, and X is the only eurasiatic y-dna in native america without explanation correlate, with R1 y-dna american native, without explanation aside from an central asian migration to an elder R1 and X until america. And i dont say that R1b is " semitic " but he evolved in near east, closely by proto-semitic speekers if we given credits to the R1b near eastern origin and the linguistic common things. Or proto-indo-european language is originated from the proto-semitic speaker in the balkan-danubian neolithic, like cucuteni and influence R1a with her native language to create proto-indo-european. And i repeat that all i'm writing are extrapolation based on real fact, i tried to synthetise the ideas. Plus, like i said in my first post, i think cultures are moving like life and no static, people who think world become from mesopotamia or egypt or china are all wrong, every human cultures are mutualy influenced by the origin of homo sapiens culture, we can for exemple postulate that R1b brings in ancient egyptia the " kurgan " idea and in this culture already well developed become great stones and magnificent pyramides, this correlation can have sens if we take in mind that egyptian pharao like ramses where R1b, that R1b-V88 imigrates in african before indo-european history and that the tumulis culture wich already exists in Mal'ta concerned also north america, with they're tumulis culture et mesoamerica with native american pyramids, and not a theory like egyptians et americans meets in antiquity... Proto-siberian adapted their underground house to their sepulture, than R1a hunter-gatherer used yet in mesolithic-neolithic ukraine.

 

[Alpakut]

R1a is not formely Siberian I don't know how you even come to this idea. R1a is not even diverse in Sibera. You are extremely misinformed in this case.

I have to interrupt you here.

Anatole A. Klyosov, Igor L. RozhanskiiAdvances in Anthropology Vol.2 No.1, February 2012 - Haplogroup R1a as the Proto Indo-Europeans and the Legendary Aryans as Witnessed by the DNA of Their Current Descendants

“Analysis of R1a1 haplotypes and their branches on the trees in Figures 5-7 shows that their ancient common ancestors lived in south Siberia and Altay (belonging to both south Siberia and Central Asia). Their ancient descendants carried the R1a1 hap-logroup while migrating from North and North-Western China, across Tibet and Hindustan, and then along the Iranian Plateau, from Asia Minor and finally into Europe. Some remnants of ancient R1a1 were left in Cambodia, Nepal, Oman, Israel, Iraq, Egypt, Crete, the Caucasus, Russia, Estonia (the respective haplotypes are recovered from data published in Underhill et al., 2009, Zhong et al., 2010, Shou et al., 2010)."

“The result of this study lend a support to the theory that:
*haplogroup R1a arose in Central Asia, apparently in South Siberia or the neighboring regions, such as Northern and/or North- western China, around 20,000 years before present."

R* was found in Siberia but in a person who was genetically absolutely not mongoloid. The race which nowadays dominates a region doesn't tell much about the the race which once dominated it thousand of years earlier.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mal'ta-Buret'_culture#Archaelogical_evidence

Mongoloid features had been originally acknowledged in the skeletal remains of a child found at the site of Malta. Alexeev (1998, 323) in his later publication was more cautious, stating that this area was“inhabited by a population of Mongoloid appearance".^[1]

X is not a mongoloid mtDNA either.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_history_of_indigenous_peoples_of_the_Americas#Haplogroup_Q

"The principal-component analysis suggests a close genetic relatedness between some North American Amerindians (the Chipewyan and the Cheyenne) and certain populations of central/southern Siberia (particularly the Kets, Yakuts, Selkups, and Altays), at the resolution of major Y-chromosome haplogroups.^[43] This pattern agrees with the distribution of mtDNA haplogroup X, which is found in North America, is absent from eastern Siberia, but is present in the Altais of southern central Siberia. Similarly, the Asian populations closest to Native Americans are characterized by a predominance of lineage P-M45* and low frequencies of C-RPS4Y."^[43]

 

[MOESAN]

I have to interrupt you here.

Anatole A. Klyosov, Igor L. RozhanskiiAdvances in Anthropology Vol.2 No.1, February 2012 - Haplogroup R1a as the Proto Indo-Europeans and the Legendary Aryans as Witnessed by the DNA of Their Current Descendants

“Analysis of R1a1 haplotypes and their branches on the trees in Figures 5-7 shows that their ancient common ancestors lived in south Siberia and Altay (belonging to both south Siberia and Central Asia). Their ancient descendants carried the R1a1 hap-logroup while migrating from North and North-Western China, across Tibet and Hindustan, and then along the Iranian Plateau, from Asia Minor and finally into Europe. Some remnants of ancient R1a1 were left in Cambodia, Nepal, Oman, Israel, Iraq, Egypt, Crete, the Caucasus, Russia, Estonia (the respective haplotypes are recovered from data published in Underhill et al., 2009, Zhong et al., 2010, Shou et al., 2010)."

“The result of this study lend a support to the theory that:
*haplogroup R1a arose in Central Asia, apparently in South Siberia or the neighboring regions, such as Northern and/or North- western China, around 20,000 years before present."



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mal'ta-Buret'_culture#Archaelogical_evidence

Mongoloid features had been originally acknowledged in the skeletal remains of a child found at the site of Malta. Alexeev (1998, 323) in his later publication was more cautious, stating that this area was“inhabited by a population of Mongoloid appearance".^[1]


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_history_of_indigenous_peoples_of_the_Americas#Haplogroup_Q

"The principal-component analysis suggests a close genetic relatedness between some North American Amerindians (the Chipewyan and the Cheyenne) and certain populations of central/southern Siberia (particularly the Kets, Yakuts, Selkups, and Altays), at the resolution of major Y-chromosome haplogroups.^[43] This pattern agrees with the distribution of mtDNA haplogroup X, which is found in North America, is absent from eastern Siberia, but is present in the Altais of southern central Siberia. Similarly, the Asian populations closest to Native Americans are characterized by a predominance of lineage P-M45* and low frequencies of C-RPS4Y."^[43]

among today Uralic speaking population ithere is a phoenotypical component which show, according to specialists, features between well confirmed 'mongoloids' and well confirmed (achieved) 'europoids', the conclusion being theis intermediary position does not seem the result of recent crossings between well achieved 'mongoloids' or 'europoids' perhaps the evolution of phoenotypes separating clearly 'europoids' from 'mongoloids' took a lot of time and were not accomplished among old ancestors of Uralic '(and other) populations; this could explain the peculiar not well defined "mongololdlike" influences in the eurasiatic crossings among Finns and Ugrians today

 

[RobertColumbia]

...the only prominent R1b subclade among Semites is R1b v88. They "lack" virtually 80% of other R1b clades. Not only that Semites are part of the Afro_Asiatic language family and among this language family E1b is the sharing point....

Good point. There are other R1b clades (e.g. R1b-L21, R1b-U106, etc.) found among Semitic peoples, especially European Jews, but these are largely from Celtic, Roman, and Germanic admixture, which is nearly inevitable if your people live in close contact with them. There are other likely admixture clades of other haplogroups, like the infamous Q1b that may be from the Khazar converts to Judaism.

 

[halfalp]

Consider Jews in the XXI century like an semitic people is clearly a sort of political and ideological idea...