Comparing modern Greek/Balkan populations to Classical/Hellenistic sample from Macedonia.

matadworf

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Here's a comparison of various Balkan/Greek groups to Classical/Hellenistic sample from Macedonia. The results are interesting and gives a sense of how modern mainland Greek's genetic profile has shifted Northeast from the Hellenestic period on;


Target: Macedonia_Classical_Hellenistic
Distance: 2.3894% / 0.02389358
63.6Turkey_Barcin_LN.SG
32.8Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya
3.6Iran_GanjDareh_N

Target: Greek_Macedonia
Distance: 2.4811% / 0.02481089
57.6Turkey_Barcin_LN.SG
37.4Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya
4.6Iran_GanjDareh_N
0.4Jordan_PPNB

Target: Macedonian
Distance: 3.6181% / 0.03618104
53.0Turkey_Barcin_LN.SG
47.0Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya
Target: Greek Messinia/Arcadia
Distance: 2.9964% / 0.02996425
62.4Turkey_Barcin_LN.SG
33.6Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya
4.0Iran_GanjDareh_N
Target: Albanian
Distance: 2.4353% / 0.02435285
60.2Turkey_Barcin_LN.SG
38.2Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya
1.6Iran_GanjDareh_N
Target: Greek_Thessaly
Distance: 1.7073% / 0.01707313
59.2Turkey_Barcin_LN.SG
36.2Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya
4.6Iran_GanjDareh_N
 
Here's a comparison of various Balkan/Greek groups to Classical/Hellenistic sample from Macedonia. The results are interesting and gives a sense of how modern mainland Greek's genetic profile has shifted Northeast from the Hellenestic period on;


Target: Macedonia_Classical_Hellenistic
Distance: 2.3894% / 0.02389358
63.6Turkey_Barcin_LN.SG
32.8Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya
3.6Iran_GanjDareh_N

Target: Greek_Macedonia
Distance: 2.4811% / 0.02481089
57.6Turkey_Barcin_LN.SG
37.4Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya
4.6Iran_GanjDareh_N
0.4Jordan_PPNB

Target: Macedonian
Distance: 3.6181% / 0.03618104
53.0Turkey_Barcin_LN.SG
47.0Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya
Target: Greek Messinia/Arcadia
Distance: 2.9964% / 0.02996425
62.4Turkey_Barcin_LN.SG
33.6Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya
4.0Iran_GanjDareh_N
Target: Albanian
Distance: 2.4353% / 0.02435285
60.2Turkey_Barcin_LN.SG
38.2Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya
1.6Iran_GanjDareh_N
Target: Greek_Thessaly
Distance: 1.7073% / 0.01707313
59.2Turkey_Barcin_LN.SG
36.2Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya
4.6Iran_GanjDareh_N
The best example to Roman Greek ancestry,is an average i have created by roman samples of the antiquity.
Greece_Imperial(1-400AD),0.11258145,0.15482218,-0.028592545,-0.064688091,0.0031613636,-0.025835455,0.00098272727,-0.0061257273,-0.0069352727,0.025330727,0.00341,0.004714,-0.009217,0.0013763636,-0.014028636,-0.0057494545,0.0070881818,0.000034636364,0.0050165455,-0.0046612727,-0.0041516364,0.0032261818,-0.0021960909,0.0027715455,0.0012301818
Its mainly Greek,with heavy west asian influences and some rest european
 
Although comparing hellenistic samples to modern populations is not ideal,since there is not much continuity,due to slavic emigration.
 
Here's a comparison of various Balkan/Greek groups to Classical/Hellenistic sample from Macedonia. The results are interesting and gives a sense of how modern mainland Greek's genetic profile has shifted Northeast from the Hellenestic period on;


Target: Macedonia_Classical_Hellenistic
Distance: 2.3894% / 0.02389358
63.6Turkey_Barcin_LN.SG
32.8Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya
3.6Iran_GanjDareh_N

Target: Greek_Macedonia
Distance: 2.4811% / 0.02481089
57.6Turkey_Barcin_LN.SG
37.4Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya
4.6Iran_GanjDareh_N
0.4Jordan_PPNB

Target: Macedonian
Distance: 3.6181% / 0.03618104
53.0Turkey_Barcin_LN.SG
47.0Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya
Target: Greek Messinia/Arcadia
Distance: 2.9964% / 0.02996425
62.4Turkey_Barcin_LN.SG
33.6Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya
4.0Iran_GanjDareh_N
Target: Albanian
Distance: 2.4353% / 0.02435285
60.2Turkey_Barcin_LN.SG
38.2Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya
1.6Iran_GanjDareh_N
Target: Greek_Thessaly
Distance: 1.7073% / 0.01707313
59.2Turkey_Barcin_LN.SG
36.2Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya
4.6Iran_GanjDareh_N
See, very good fit with no Slavic admix, history be damned!😎
 
Although comparing hellenistic samples to modern populations is not ideal,since there is not much continuity,due to slavic emigration.
Why is that we assume that all modern mainland Greeks or Balkan people with 1/3 Steppe have Slavic admixture. Ok I realize the Stamtayanolopoulos paper mentioned that there was minor IDB sharing with Slavic populations but what if there is continuity in all of modern Greece with Northern Greek populations from the Bronze and Classical period. The Peloponnese had periods of sparse population during the Byzantine era and yes there was Slavic migration from the Southern Balkans but it's been argued that even those folks were essentially mixed paleo-balkan folks with pre-Slavic Steppe admixture. Everyone assumes that just because modern Greeks have higher Steppe than the Myceneans or Classical Central/Southern Greeks (still don't have representative samples from this period) they have Slavic admixture. The other curious question is why do Northern and Southern Greeks cluster (so similar genetically)? Just look at the results.
 
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Why is that we assume that all modern mainland Greeks or Balkan people with 1/3 Steppe have Slavic admixture. Ok I realize the Stamtayanolopoulos paper mentioned that there was minor IDB sharing with Slavic populations but what if there is continuity in all of modern Greece with Northern Greek populations from the Bronze and Classical period. The Peloponnese had periods of sparse population during the Byzantine era and yes there was Slavic migration from the Southern Balkans but it's been argued that even those folks were essentially mixed paleo-balkan folks with pre-Slavic Steppe admixture. Everyone assumes that just because modern Greeks have higher Steppe than the Myceneans or Classical Central/Southern Greeks (still don't have representative samples from this period) they have Slavic admixture. The other curious question is why do Northern and Southern Greeks cluster (so similar genetically)? Just look at the results.
The other thing that needs to be taken into account is that the Sclavinae settlements were dispersed during Justinian II's reign and resettled in Cappadocia. Follow up efforts by Empress Irene to reconquer Western Peloponnese were fruitful but it was during Nicephorus reign that the last remnant of Slavs were erased from mainland Greece and replaced with Greeks from Southern Italy.
 
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Why is that we assume that all modern mainland Greeks or Balkan people with 1/3 Steppe have Slavic admixture. Ok I realize the Stamtayanolopoulos paper mentioned that there was minor IDB sharing with Slavic populations but what if there is continuity in all of modern Greece with Northern Greek populations from the Bronze and Classical period. The Peloponnese had periods of sparse population during the Byzantine era and yes there was Slavic migration from the Southern Balkans but it's been argued that even those folks were essentially mixed paleo-balkan folks with pre-Slavic Steppe admixture. Everyone assumes that just because modern Greeks have higher Steppe than the Myceneans or Classical Central/Southern Greeks (still don't have representative samples from this period) they have Slavic admixture. The other curious question is why do Northern and Southern Greeks cluster (so similar genetically)? Just look at the results.
We assume that,because of historical and genetical evidence.I dont think that there is such continuity from Classic Greece to Modern Greece.The west asian migration in hellenistic/roman times,slavic migration,and Arvanite migration have reduced ancient Greek Ancestry.We have representatives from mycenaeans,we dont have from north Greece.The only thing i could do is to run a BA-IA calculator in Kalash people,where it shows a very small balkanic ancestry(0-1%).It shows that Macedonians were probably 60-70% Ancient Greek(from Dorian populated areas,as Argolis and Phocis), 15-20% Illyrian and 15-20% Thracian.Although we want of course more data to have a clearer picture.Northern and Southern Greeks are similar,since they have experienced the same migrations throughout history,but southern Greeks have more Roman Greek Ancestry
 
We assume that,because of historical and genetical evidence.I dont think that there is such continuity from Classic Greece to Modern Greece.The west asian migration in hellenistic/roman times,slavic migration,and Arvanite migration have reduced ancient Greek Ancestry.We have representatives from mycenaeans,we dont have from north Greece.The only thing i could do is to run a BA-IA calculator in Kalash people,where it shows a very small balkanic ancestry(0-1%).It shows that Macedonians were probably 60-70% Ancient Greek(from Dorian populated areas,as Argolis and Phocis), 15-20% Illyrian and 15-20% Thracian.Although we want of course more data to have a clearer picture.Northern and Southern Greeks are similar,since they have experienced the same migrations throughout history,but southern Greeks have more Roman Greek Ancestry
Can you provide us a source for Ancient Macedonians' admix?
 
Can you provide us a source for Ancient Macedonians' admix?
My only source is the BA-IA breakdown of Kalash people,which show a small percentage of european ancestry which probably corresponds to ancient macedonians,i said probably,it can of course be false
 
The best example to Roman Greek ancestry,is an average i have created by roman samples of the antiquity.
Greece_Imperial(1-400AD),0.11258145,0.15482218,-0.028592545,-0.064688091,0.0031613636,-0.025835455,0.00098272727,-0.0061257273,-0.0069352727,0.025330727,0.00341,0.004714,-0.009217,0.0013763636,-0.014028636,-0.0057494545,0.0070881818,0.000034636364,0.0050165455,-0.0046612727,-0.0041516364,0.0032261818,-0.0021960909,0.0027715455,0.0012301818
Its mainly Greek,with heavy west asian influences and some rest european
Not sure if this on topic
Can you provide us a source for Ancient Macedonians' admix?
G25 Data Base
Here are the coordinates for one of the samples;
Macedonia_Classical_Hellenistic,0.1217907,0.1536833,0.012068,-0.0299313,0.021337,-0.01255,-0.0057967,-0.0073843,0.0034087,0.019621,0.0048717,0.0094917,-0.0122397,0.0064683,-0.0070123,-0.014938,-0.0049547,0.0002533,0.0067457,-0.003168,-0.0084433,0.0013603,-0.000945,0.000201,-0.001836
 
Can you provide us a source for Ancient Macedonians' admix?
Sample coordinates:
Macedonia_Classical_Hellenistic,0.1217907,0.1536833,0.012068,-0.0299313,0.021337,-0.01255,-0.0057967,-0.0073843,0.0034087,0.019621,0.0048717,0.0094917,-0.0122397,0.0064683,-0.0070123,-0.014938,-0.0049547,0.0002533,0.0067457,-0.003168,-0.0084433,0.0013603,-0.000945,0.000201,-0.001836
 
We assume that,because of historical and genetical evidence.I dont think that there is such continuity from Classic Greece to Modern Greece.The west asian migration in hellenistic/roman times,slavic migration,and Arvanite migration have reduced ancient Greek Ancestry.We have representatives from mycenaeans,we dont have from north Greece.The only thing i could do is to run a BA-IA calculator in Kalash people,where it shows a very small balkanic ancestry(0-1%).It shows that Macedonians were probably 60-70% Ancient Greek(from Dorian populated areas,as Argolis and Phocis), 15-20% Illyrian and 15-20% Thracian.Although we want of course more data to have a clearer picture.Northern and Southern Greeks are similar,since they have experienced the same migrations throughout history,but southern Greeks have more Roman Greek Ancestry
I still don't really see evidence of West Asian migration/admixture in mainland Greece during Roman times. Can you cite specific migrations; when and where? If you try to model mainland Greeks with this Roman Imperial Anatolian admixture you have to use disparate non historical populations to tighten the fit. It seems that the historical evidence suggests that the WA admixture from Anatolia (during the imperial era) ended up in Southern Italy/Siciliy.
 
Not sure if this on topic

G25 Data Base
Here are the coordinates for one of the samples;
Macedonia_Classical_Hellenistic,0.1217907,0.1536833,0.012068,-0.0299313,0.021337,-0.01255,-0.0057967,-0.0073843,0.0034087,0.019621,0.0048717,0.0094917,-0.0122397,0.0064683,-0.0070123,-0.014938,-0.0049547,0.0002533,0.0067457,-0.003168,-0.0084433,0.0013603,-0.000945,0.000201,-0.001836
I just send it since we talk about hellenistic balkaners and the modern ones
 
I still don't really see evidence of West Asian migration/admixture in mainland Greece during Roman times. Can you cite specific migrations; when and where? If you try to model mainland Greeks with this Roman Imperial Anatolian admixture you have to use disparate non historical populations to tighten the fit. It seems that the historical evidence suggests that the WA admixture from Anatolia (during the imperial era) ended up in Southern Italy/Siciliy.
I can send you a piece of information from the study:

A Genetic History of the Balkans from Roman Frontier to Slavic Migrations​

study.png
 
I can send you a piece of information from the study:

A Genetic History of the Balkans from Roman Frontier to Slavic Migrations​

View attachment 16288
Yes but this this is referring to the West Asian input from Anatolia during the Bronze Age. I've never disagreed with this. That's why you see the Iran Neolithic and/or Levantine input (came with later Anatolian migrations who's autosmal makeup was different than original farmers) in Southern Ballkan folks but again the percentage is pretty low.
 
From the same study

1-s2.0-S0092867423011352-fx1_lrg.jpg
 
The best example to Roman Greek ancestry,is an average i have created by roman samples of the antiquity.
Greece_Imperial(1-400AD),0.11258145,0.15482218,-0.028592545,-0.064688091,0.0031613636,-0.025835455,0.00098272727,-0.0061257273,-0.0069352727,0.025330727,0.00341,0.004714,-0.009217,0.0013763636,-0.014028636,-0.0057494545,0.0070881818,0.000034636364,0.0050165455,-0.0046612727,-0.0041516364,0.0032261818,-0.0021960909,0.0027715455,0.0012301818
Its mainly Greek,with heavy west asian influences and some rest european
I'm not sure of the relevance of this sample to a discussion of comparing this Macedonian sample to modern South Balkaners. Remember this is merely a comparison to suggest other reasons for autosmal proximity to ancient Macedonians other than 7th c. Slavic admixture. I'm under the impression that there has always been a North to South/South to North migration pattern in Greece due to a long history of sheepherding, pastoralism, farming, etc.
 
The Eastern African related migration makes no sense at all.Who were these migrants and why would they move to mainland rural areas of the Balkans. A migration to a cosmopolitan center like Athens, Salonika or Constantinople I could see but in the middle of rural areas that was totally unfamiliar, mountainous and/or uninhabitable. There is no genetic evidence that this group made any impact if they did exist.
 
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The Eastern African related migration makes no sense at all.Who were these migrants and why would they move to mainland rural areas? A migration to a cosmopolitan center like Athens, Salonika or Constantinople I could see but in the middle of Central Greece? There is no genetic evidence that this group made any impact if they did exist.
Thats how the study justifies it:
Our newly reported data also revealed sporadic long-distance mobility. Three men who likely lived in the 2nd or 3rd centuries CE fell outside European and Near Eastern variability (Figure S1), close to present-day and ancient Africans (Figure S2A). Proximal qpAdm modeling confirmed these observations (Figure 2A; Data S2, Table 6) with 33% and 100% North African ancestry for individuals I26775 (Iader) and I32304 (Viminacium Pećine), respectively, while I15499 (Viminacium Pirivoj) could be modeled using only ancient East African populations, supporting an East African ancestral origin and agreeing with his uniparental markers mtDNA L2a1j and Y-chromosome E1b-V32, both common in East Africa today28,31. The individual of East African ancestry was buried with an oil lamp depicting Jupiter-related eagle iconography (Figure 2C; Data S1, section 1), not a common finding in Viminacium graves32. Isotopic analysis of tooth roots showed that he was also an outlier with respect to dietary habits during childhood (Figure 2B), with elevated δ15N and δ13C values indicating the likely consumption of marine protein sources33, unlike individuals from Pirivoj and other necropolises whose values (Figure 2B) were similar to the Roman-Period population from Sirmium34 and consistent with a largely C3-based diet with a significant portion of animal protein consumption33. Thus, he likely spent his early years elsewhere, possibly in East Africa, the land of his ancestors; while we will never know his whole life story, whether as soldier, slave, merchant, or migrant, it encompassed a long journey that ended with his death in adolescence on the northern frontiers of the Roman Empire.

I think also that these samples were probably some mercenaries,and an african migration wave didnt really happen
 
Thats how the study justifies it:
Our newly reported data also revealed sporadic long-distance mobility. Three men who likely lived in the 2nd or 3rd centuries CE fell outside European and Near Eastern variability (Figure S1), close to present-day and ancient Africans (Figure S2A). Proximal qpAdm modeling confirmed these observations (Figure 2A; Data S2, Table 6) with 33% and 100% North African ancestry for individuals I26775 (Iader) and I32304 (Viminacium Pećine), respectively, while I15499 (Viminacium Pirivoj) could be modeled using only ancient East African populations, supporting an East African ancestral origin and agreeing with his uniparental markers mtDNA L2a1j and Y-chromosome E1b-V32, both common in East Africa today28,31. The individual of East African ancestry was buried with an oil lamp depicting Jupiter-related eagle iconography (Figure 2C; Data S1, section 1), not a common finding in Viminacium graves32. Isotopic analysis of tooth roots showed that he was also an outlier with respect to dietary habits during childhood (Figure 2B), with elevated δ15N and δ13C values indicating the likely consumption of marine protein sources33, unlike individuals from Pirivoj and other necropolises whose values (Figure 2B) were similar to the Roman-Period population from Sirmium34 and consistent with a largely C3-based diet with a significant portion of animal protein consumption33. Thus, he likely spent his early years elsewhere, possibly in East Africa, the land of his ancestors; while we will never know his whole life story, whether as soldier, slave, merchant, or migrant, it encompassed a long journey that ended with his death in adolescence on the northern frontiers of the Roman Empire.

I think also that these samples were probably some mercenaries,and an african migration wave didnt really happen
Ok I can see the mercenary connection. But these samples are pretty random and isolated.
 

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