Corded Ware Culture Signals Population Change in Europe

[Alan]

The samples from Corded Ware sites simply show that initially the R1a brought by the newcomers was mixed with some Neolithic farmer ancestry, and while R1a became quite dominant in parts of Eastern Europe, it didn't wipe out other haplotypes - Eastern Europe is still somewhat of a mixture, although G2 certainly seems to have dwindled a lot.

My guess is that Proto-Indo-Iranian is just an extension of Corded Ware DNA.

I wouldn't be so sure about that. It will be interesting to find out if the individual was actually J* If so, this is initially the prove that J* was part of the Indo European expansion into Europe because no where else was J* jet identified.

As I said in the past and it is getting more and more clear J* expanded most likely during Bronze and Iron Age.

 

[Alan]

Yamna people had 75%-80% mtdna like the European Neolithic mtdna, and 20-25% Hunter-gatherer mtdna

Yamna
BEN3 : H33c
KAL1 : N1a1a
KAL2 : H*
MAJ3 : U5a1
MAJ4 : U5b2
MAJ5 : X2h (?)
NIK1 : T1a
NIK7 : H (rCRS)
OLE1 : T2
OLE7 : J2b
OVI2 : K
OVI3 : U/K
PEJ1 : U5a1
PES7 : H1a1 or H5a1j
POD1 : W6
POD2 : T2
POP1 : T2a1b
POP3 : U2e
POP4 : U5a1
RIL3 : K1
SUG2 : I1a
SUG6 : H1, H3 or H6
SUG7 : H (rCRS)
SUG8 : H (rCRS)
TET2 : U4a1
VIN2 : T1a
VIN5 : T1a
VIN12 : T1


http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...e-(PIE)-had-mixed-light-and-dark-pigmentation

Interesting no HV* there but 10% HV* in Andronovo, Corded Ware and some Scandinavian culture which its name I don't remember. Another thing which Andronovo and Corded Ware share.

But it might also be just be a sample bias in the Yamnaya samples. Since N* and H* was found so logically their should be some HV* too (child of N* and mother of H*)

 

[Angela]

This is rank speculation, but I thought I would just put it out there. If ANE existed along a sort of front from the Baltic (with some Mesolithic leakage laterally west into places like Scandinavia) all the way down to at least Iran/Afghanistan, is it possible that the "Indo-European" signal in the northern part of that range (i.e. Corded Ware) was dominated by R1a, but in Iran and the Caucasus was also J2, or at least that J2 became an ANE bearing lineage?

I ask, because it seems that the ANE component is actually higher in the Caucasus and certain areas of the Near East than it is in Europe, and J2 has not yet been found in a Neolithic context in Europe. Then there's the fact that the Neolithic samples in Europe totally lack the ANE component. What if metal ages J2 also brought ANE to southern Europe? Is that possible? I've been saying for years that the Neolithic farmers who went to Europe from the Middle East, if indeed they were all that different from the inhabitants of, say, the Aegean of the Mesolithic, were different from the Middle Easterners of today, and not just because of some more recent SSA in the Levant and further south. I think the arrival of ANE bearing people may be the larger difference.

 

[Angela]

Interesting no HV* there but 10% HV* in Andronovo, Corded Ware and some Scandinavian culture which its name I don't remember. Another thing which Andronovo and Corded Ware share.

But it might also be just be a sample bias in the Yamnaya samples. Since N* and H* was found so logically their should be some HV* too (child of N* and mother of H*)

I think part of the problem with the analyses of the "H" mtDna lineages is that "H" is treated as a monolithic entity. It isn't, and the distribution in Europe varies depending on the subclade. What I think is pretty clear is that it has a star burst pattern centered on the Middle East. However, I find it totally plausible that it started to move in the late Mesolithic in various directions. So, it may have reached Europe with different migrations at different times.

I've also been saying for ages that mtDna is very much linked to health and fitness, and we already have preliminary results indicating that "H" may confer some selective advantages.

Ed. I hasten to add that I have no personal stake in the matter. I am U2e, and we seem to have lost out in the survival sweepstakes!

 

[LeBrok]

75%-80% of Yamna people had mtDNA haplogroups close to Balkanian Neolithic mtDNA haplogroups

It means that this is how they became farmers. They took EEF genetic admixture, and predisposition to farming lifestyle, from farmers' women overwhelmingly. I suppose paternal line was mostly hunter-gatherer R1a. Having both traits, predisposition to farming (digestion of starches and repetitive work) and hunters' predispositions to living in colder climate of higher latitudes, they became first successful farmers who spread in whole Central-East-North Europe and stayed there forever. First true hybrid, farmers of the north. In contrast to pure Neolithic EEF farmers from south who spread North during warm periods and retreated south during cold spells.

 

[Aberdeen]

100% impossible! Why? Because the ancestral R1a* to the European types of R1a and the Asian types of R1a has been found around the Zagros Mountains and NOT in the steppes. And what is your 'proof' of the R1a split in the Steppes? Facts don't lie. But you can still believe in fairytales with you wishful thinking...

And the ancestor of R1a* was found in Siberia 24,000 years ago. So, using your logic, Indo-Iranians must be Siberian. Or maybe it would make more sense to admit that where ancestral R was 24,000 years ago doesn't tell us where R1a* must have been 15,000 years ago and that where R1a* was 15,000 years ago doesn't tell us where RZ283 or RZ93 must have been 5000 years ago. People migrate, and sometime they back-migrate.

 

[Sile]

And the ancestor of R1a* was found in Siberia 24,000 years ago. So, using your logic, Indo-Iranians must be Siberian. Or maybe it would make more sense to admit that where ancestral R was 24,000 years ago doesn't tell us where R1a* must have been 15,000 years ago and that where R1a* was 15,000 years ago doesn't tell us where RZ283 or RZ93 must have been 5000 years ago. People migrate, and sometime they back-migrate.

It was not R1a*............it was R* ...........it was neither R1 or R2 branch and now this R* is noted as extinct.

Basal R-M207 origins is in south-east asia ( sundaland) ...read the karafet paper of June 2014

 

[Alan]

Sile and Aberdeen it is not extinct it is still found in South_Central Asia among Kalash. P* is believed to have originated in Southeast Asia but I doubt that R* originatedn there.

 

[Alan]

And the ancestor of R1a* was found in Siberia 24,000 years ago. So, using your logic, Indo-Iranians must be Siberian. Or maybe it would make more sense to admit that where ancestral R was 24,000 years ago doesn't tell us where R1a* must have been 15,000 years ago and that where R1a* was 15,000 years ago doesn't tell us where RZ283 or RZ93 must have been 5000 years ago. People migrate, and sometime they back-migrate.

Just because it was fuound in Siberia doesn't mean it originated there It simply meeans it has reached Siberia already 24000 years ago. Another Indication for that is that this individuals autosomal DNA is more akine to West Eurasians. so he must have migrated there from further West.

Also we don't have any South_Central or West Asian dna from the same timeline yet. Who tells us that we will not find any 24000 year old R* in South_Central Asia too?

Genetic analysis of Y-chromosome DNA (Y-DNA) by Firasat et al. (2007) on Kalash individuals found high and diverse frequencies of these Y-DNA Haplogroups: L3a (22.7%), H1* (20.5%), R1a (18.2%), G (18.2%), J2 (9.1%), R* (6.8%), R1* (2.3%), and L* (2.3%).

 

[Sile]

Sile and Aberdeen it is not extinct it is still found in South_Central Asia among Kalash. P* is believed to have originated in Southeast Asia but I doubt that R* originatedn there.

I am saying that the Karafet paper plus Big-Y and Yfull people have all placed the origins of R-M207 in java, borneo and sumatra

the new dating for R is not older than 29000 and not younger than 22500

 

[Alan]

I am saying that the Karafet paper plus Big-Y and Yfull people have all placed the origins of R-M207 in java, borneo and sumatra

the new dating for R is not older than 29000 and not younger than 22500

But regarding R* they have absolutely no proof or indication for that. They simply did that based on their own assumption (similar to the paleolithic R1b story ) because we now know P* probably originated somewhere between Southeast and South Asia. It must have been some euphoric decision. I bet in a few years new studies will point to South_Central Asian origin of it.

There is absolutely nothing which could indiciate a Southeast Asian origin of R*. But allot of reasons to assume a South_Central Asian origin for it.

I personally believe this. P* originated in Southeast Asiia/South Asia. moves into South_Central Asia becomes R* moves into various directions and becomes either in West Asia or Central Asia R1* and mutates into R1b and R1a* either in West Asia , Central Asia or the Pontic Steppes.

 

[Sile]

But regarding R* they have absolutely no proof or indication for that. They simply did that based on their own assumption because we now know P* probably originated somewhere between Southeast and South Asia.

There is absolutely nothing which could indiciate an Southeast Asian origin of R*. But allot of reasons to assume a South_Central Asian origin for it.

I personally believe this. P* originated in Southeast Asiia/South Asia. moves into South_Central Asia becomes R* moves into various directions and becomes either in West Asia or Central Asia R1* and mutates into R1b and R1a* either in West Asia , Central Asia or the Pontic Steppes.

There is no indication that R* is anywhere until we find it in siberia, but karafet and these others have found basal R-M207 in the areas I noted above @7% and also 8000years before the creation of the next R subclade

 

[Alan]

And adding to that the Mal'ta individual was something like 70% West Eurasian autosomally and only some 10-15% Southeast Asian like. How could such an individual originated in Southeast Asia?

 

[Sile]

And adding to that the Mal'ta individual was something like 70% West Eurasian autosomally and only some 10-15% Southeast Asian like. How could such an individual originated in Southeast Asia?

the individual's marker is stated as not R1 nor R2 branches..........could be a rogue marker ............at one stage he could have been any of 5 different haplogroups.

read the karafet paper, it is accepted and the new groupings are accepted by all, they are IIRC
k1 = T and L
K2a = N and O
K2b = P331
K2b2 = P - P295 .................from this came
R-M207 ,
8000 years later came R-M420 and R-M173,
3000 years later R-M417

 

[Alan]

There is no indication that R* is anywhere until we find it in siberia, but karafet and these others have found basal R-M207 in the areas I noted above @7% and also 8000years before the creation of the next R subclade

OK so they found 7% R* in Southeast Asia. And who is going to prove that this is not simply an indiciation of an early or even late migration from South_Central Asia to there? this basal R* was also found in Kalash @7% and other Central Asians too. But additional to that the Kalash are also autosomaly allot closer to the Mal'ta individual. This is a strong indiciation that Mal'ta came from somewhere in South_Central Asia and not Southeast Asia.

 

[Alan]

the individual's marker is stated as not R1 nor R2 branches..........could be a rogue marker ............at one stage he could have been any of 5 different haplogroups

But aren't we talking about R* here? I also never claimed the individual was R1 or R2.

 

[Sile]

OK so they found 7% R* in Southeast Asia. And who is going to prove that this is not simply an indiciation of an early or even late migration from South_Central Asia to there? this basal R* was also found in Kalash @7% and other Central Asians too. But additional to that the Kalash are also autosomaly allot closer to the Mal'ta individual. This is a strong indiciation that Mal'ta came from somewhere in South_Central Asia and not Southeast Asia.

no, they found 7% of R-M207

 

[Sile]

But aren't we talking about R* here? I also never claimed the individual was R1 or R2.

ok, still R* has no association with R1 or R2 , so there is no point in trying to say that this R* siberian is this amount of western markers or that amount of markers. R* stands alone

 

[Alan]

ok, still R* has no association with R1 or R2 , so there is no point in trying to say that this R* siberian is this amount of western markers or that amount of markers. R* stands alone

I think we are talking past each other. That R* have no association with R1 or R2 has not much to do with Mal'ta with haplogroup R* having autosomally up to 70% West Eurasian DNA and so is unlikely to have arrived from somewhere in Southeast Asia.

Thats the point.

 

[MOESAN]

I agree with Angela (hello!) concerning mt-H: a lot of mt-H is not of "neolithical" origin: "neolithical" is confusing, Corded W people were "neolithical" too but distinct from the earlier farmers of Europe passed through Anatolia - Finns have a lot of mt-H and are not too "neolithical", not more than the Atlantic forefront people -

concerning farming and nomadisme, mor than a scientist thinks that some of the Cucuteni-Tripolye cultures people turned into a half-nomadic breeding way of life for climatic reasons (the cattle among Pontic people would have been from Balkans or Carpathinas regions)

physically, even if not of a pure stock, the Corded people send into Europe types very distinct from the neolithical Danubians, were a modern 'nordic' type is strongly represented, and something evocating the 'indo-irano-afghan' type -
genetically, someones say their mt-DNA evocates the Baltic people, but this statute could have changed with time, with crossings with local females in central-noerthern Germany

concerning language I think Corded spoke already an I-Ean maybe on the way to satemization, a trait common (seemingly) to descendants of steppic tribes (turkic influences??? or some Ugric ones??? - not sure but?) - they took part in the germanic cristallization like others but THEY WERE NOT THE PROTO GERMANIC (maybe here we have the explanation of apparently strong links between germanic and slavic languages, to take with caution neverhteless) - by the way theirphysical means apparented them, partially, to supposed Iranic people of Antiquity (not today Iranians) - to tell they were an iranic speaking people is for the fun, but maybe they were not strangers to the proto-Iranics

that said, Corded shew culturally affinities with the Battle-Axes people of South-Baltic and the 'boat-shaped Axes' ('haches naviformes') of Scandinavia were a proto-satem language could have been spoken before germanic: first I-E introgression into SW Finnland?