E-m123*

[Harutyan Jort]

hi valerius,
i look at a new paper :
it is a pre-print there are 1097 samples from
all across iran
the paper checked for 17 y-str markers

i checked some of the haplotypes looking for E branches ( in nevgen predictor)
and i saw an e-m123>pf4428 case in tabriz azari

https://imgur.com/qOXJEdR

sample name in the supplemental : TBZ 273
the number of samples from tabriz region of azari origin were 41
so total 1/41 is 2.4% e-m123*

p.s
whit athey predictor predict it though as j1 so i am not sure ( i usually count more on nevgen so i think it is a real e-m123* )

source paper:

https://www.researchsquare.com/article/rs-2560710/v1

interesting! I observed from an older journal

Ancient Migratory Events in the Middle East: New Clues from the Y-Chromosome Variation of Modern Iranians

Knowledge of high resolution Y-chromosome haplogroup diversification within Iran provides important geographic context regarding the spread and compartmentalization of male lineages in the Middle East and southwestern Asia. At present, the Iranian population ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

It turns out that 3-4%of Iranian males are E-M123 however E-M123*(xm34) is still rare only 1 observed in Khuzestan arab and another 1 case in mazandaran
now you have 1 in azari which did not showed up in previous journal, that makes me think if we have higher # on samples we might have new clues on Iranian E-M123*

 

[kingdavid]

interesting! I observed from an older journal

Ancient Migratory Events in the Middle East: New Clues from the Y-Chromosome Variation of Modern Iranians

Knowledge of high resolution Y-chromosome haplogroup diversification within Iran provides important geographic context regarding the spread and compartmentalization of male lineages in the Middle East and southwestern Asia. At present, the Iranian population ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

It turns out that 3-4%of Iranian males are E-M123 however E-M123*(xm34) is still rare only 1 observed in Khuzestan arab and another 1 case in mazandaran
now you have 1 in azari which did not showed up in previous journal, that makes me think if we have higher # on samples we might have new clues on Iranian E-M123*

Yes
Those 2 cases of e-m123* are confirmed
By snp by the researchers in the paper you posted
As oposed to the azari from tabriz is based on a prediction of 17 markers so we can't be sure about him
I do wonder why they didn't use snp testing
Instead of y-str prediction
It's a paper from 2023

 

[kingdavid]

e-m123>pf4428 1.22% 1/81 in hungarians from baranja ( north east croatia)

known snp e-m123( 23 y-str markers predicted by nevgen predictor)
DV056- e-m123( likely e-m123>pf4428)

source :

Phylogenetic study of the Hungarian-speaking Baranja (Croatia) and Zobor region (Slovakia) populations

In this study, we delved into the uniparental genetic lineage of Hungarian-speaking minorities residing in rural villages of Baranja and the Zobor region, located in contemporary Croatia and Slovakia, respectively. Our focus was on identifying ancestral patterns by examining genetic markers di...

www.researchsquare.com

p.s
in nevgen it looks like e-m123>pf4428
with values of: 13,19 in dys385a,b
it doesn't look like e-m123>m34
side note :
unsurprisingly almost all of the e1b1b1 cases in this paper from baranja croatia and zobor slovakia are e-m78>v13

 

[Valerius]

Interesting to see 1st sample from Hungary @kingjohn - there is also one in Eastern Austria.

 

[kingdavid]

Interesting to see 1st sample from Hungary @kingjohn - there is also one in Eastern Austria.

yes
lets hope for more papers were e-m123* cases will show up
i can assure you i am always looking for them

by the way :
a new ftdna kit from syria only 12 markers but confirmed for e-pf4428
[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TD]BP51277[/TD]
[TD]xxxxx[/TD]
[TD]xxxxx[/TD]
[TD]Syrian Arab Republic[/TD]
[TD]E-PF4428[/TD]
[TD]13[/TD]
[TD]25[/TD]
[TD]15[/TD]
[TD]10[/TD]
[TD]13-13[/TD]
[TD]11[/TD]
[TD]12[/TD]
[TD]12[/TD]
[TD]13[/TD]
[TD]11[/TD]
[TD]30[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

I didn't post his surname and city out of privacy reasons of this kit
you can add him to your e-m123* blog

 

[kingdavid]

IN115811

xxxxx

Palestinian Territory

E-PF4428

13

24

15

10

13-14

11

12

12

14

11

31

14

9-9

10

11

28

14

20

35

15-15-16-16

10

11

20-23

15

14

16

20

35-37

14

10

 

[kingdavid]

37 markers but look at nevgen predictor as e-m123>pf4428

IN132228

xxxxx

Saudi Arabia

E-M35

13

25

14

11

13-18

11

12

12

13

11

31

17

9-9

11

11

28

14

19

33

14-15-16-16

10

11

19-23

13

14

18

20

33-34

13

10

 

[Valerius]

37 markers but look at nevgen predictor as e-m123>pf4428
[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TD]IN132228[/TD]
[TD]xxxxx[/TD]
[TD]Saudi Arabia[/TD]
[TD]E-M35[/TD]
[TD]13[/TD]
[TD]25[/TD]
[TD]14[/TD]
[TD]11[/TD]
[TD]13-18[/TD]
[TD]11[/TD]
[TD]12[/TD]
[TD]12[/TD]
[TD]13[/TD]
[TD]11[/TD]
[TD]31[/TD]
[TD]17[/TD]
[TD]9-9[/TD]
[TD]11[/TD]
[TD]11[/TD]
[TD]28[/TD]
[TD]14[/TD]
[TD]19[/TD]
[TD]33[/TD]
[TD]14-15-16-16[/TD]
[TD]10[/TD]
[TD]11[/TD]
[TD]19-23[/TD]
[TD]13[/TD]
[TD]14[/TD]
[TD]18[/TD]
[TD]20[/TD]
[TD]33-34[/TD]
[TD]13[/TD]
[TD]10[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Saudi Arabia was strangely the only place lacking E-pf4428 in the ME region - seems now that changes if this prediction is correct.

 

[kingdavid]

Saudi Arabia was strangely the only place lacking E-pf4428 in the ME region - seems now that changes if this prediction is correct.

at this project :

FamilyTreeDNA - Genetic Testing for Ancestry, Family History & Genealogy

With our premier suite of DNA tests and the world’s most comprehensive matching database...your DNA has met its match!

www.familytreedna.com

there is a kit
country writtern is jordan ( yet when i look at the map i see that kit from saudi arabia medina region )
confusing
it is 67 markers :
but the ending of the final 4 markers out of the 67 tested of 10,12,10,11 or 11,12,10,11 usually suggesting the e-m123 direction

[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TD]174342[/TD]
[TD]xxxxx[/TD]
[TD]Jordan[/TD]
[TD]E-M35[/TD]
[TD]14[/TD]
[TD]26[/TD]
[TD]13[/TD]
[TD]10[/TD]
[TD]14-18[/TD]
[TD]11[/TD]
[TD]12[/TD]
[TD]13[/TD]
[TD]14[/TD]
[TD]12[/TD]
[TD]31[/TD]
[TD]16[/TD]
[TD]9-9[/TD]
[TD]11[/TD]
[TD]11[/TD]
[TD]27[/TD]
[TD]15[/TD]
[TD]21[/TD]
[TD]35[/TD]
[TD]14-14-16-17[/TD]
[TD]10[/TD]
[TD]11[/TD]
[TD]19-22[/TD]
[TD]16[/TD]
[TD]13[/TD]
[TD]18[/TD]
[TD]19[/TD]
[TD]31-37[/TD]
[TD]14[/TD]
[TD]10[/TD]
[TD]10[/TD]
[TD]8[/TD]
[TD]15-15[/TD]
[TD]7[/TD]
[TD]10[/TD]
[TD]10[/TD]
[TD]8[/TD]
[TD]11[/TD]
[TD]9[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[TD]23-24[/TD]
[TD]19[/TD]
[TD]10[/TD]
[TD]12[/TD]
[TD]12[/TD]
[TD]14[/TD]
[TD]7[/TD]
[TD]11[/TD]
[TD]28[/TD]
[TD]18[/TD]
[TD]11[/TD]
[TD]13[/TD]
[TD]11[/TD]
[TD]15[/TD]
[TD]10[/TD]
[TD]12[/TD]
[TD]10[/TD]
[TD]11[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

 

[kingdavid]

i know it is an old sample from back in the day
still cool someone at twitter posted :
the male y haplogroup among the tasmola culture 800-400 bc
DA-19
E-M123>FT20896>FT179548

Source on this culture:

Tasmola culture - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[kingdavid]

valerius if you are interested here are the real g25 values of the late antiquity 2069 e-m123>pf4428 individual from south tyrol
(posted by someone in genarchivist forum)

Italy:2069,0.124067,0.158423,0.026021,-0.016473,0.03416,-0.008646,0.000235,-0.001154,0.005113,0.031162,-0.00682,0.009292,-0.016501,-0.00578,-0.010179,0.005967,0.022035,0.005954,-0.004777,0.000125,-0.001872,0.006677,0.000986,0.002651,-0.00455


source paper:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2589004223022927#appsec2

modern populations closest :

Distance to:	Italy:2069
0.02991804	French_Corsica
0.03097194	Italian_Veneto
0.03300533	Italian_Piedmont
0.03402883	Italian_Bergamo
0.03453743	Italian_Lombardy
0.03456325	Italian_Tuscany
0.03503599	Italian_Emilia
0.03515925	Swiss_Italian
0.03561455	Italian_Trentino_Alto_Adige
0.03821198	Albanian
0.03938535	Italian_Umbria
0.04115767	Spanish_Baleares
0.04150980	Italian_Northeast
0.04177992	Spanish_Mallorca
0.04257753	Italian_Lazio
0.04268587	Italian_Marche
0.04271526	Italian_Aosta_Valley
0.04293388	Greek_Thessaly
0.04354723	Spanish_Menorca
0.04411892	Italian_Liguria
0.04447539	Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.04453258	French_Provence
0.04515084	Italian_Friuli_Venezia_Giulia_Sappada
0.04562023	Spanish_Eivissa
0.04573996	Greek_Achaea

 

[Khopesh_Wielder]

Hello,

I was confirmed by FTDNA as E-M123* which is negative for M34 or any other branches. It's a rare haplogroup found in North-Western Iberia, The Middle East and even one case in my country Bulgaria, everywhere in just 1% or less. I want to ask about its presence in Europe - is it possible that E-M123* came to the Balkans with the Neolithic farmers from the Middle East? Or its presence there its due to late migrations like Roman colonists? Is it possible to be determined? My male ancestors are Vlachs who are said to be a mixture of Thracians and Roman colonists - so E-M123* could either be from Romans or Thracians. That's why I'm kinda confused with correlating my haplogroup with historical events. Any ideas? I know that with no branchings I can't compare myself with other E-M123 people so that's why I'm asking if someone knows something more than I do.

Also the distribution map of M123 from Geno 2.0 is different than the one in Eupedia -

https://imgur.com/F1EYKue

It looks logical, according to the map, that M123 entered the Balkans from Anatolia and the highlighted area is more or less in the boundaries of Ancient Thrace.

It is 100% a Semitic lineage not Ancient European. The oldest remains are in Jordan and Israel. You might have Crypto-Jewish paternal heritage of you are Central European and belong to it.

 

[Valerius]

It is 100% a Semitic lineage not Ancient European. The oldest remains are in Jordan and Israel. You might have Crypto-Jewish paternal heritage of you are Central European and belong to it.

I posted this 8 years ago so now I know this haplogroup formed in the Middle East; although the story of its migration to Europe is still complicated. Yfull is giving the TMRCA of 1500 to 1300 BC as time of migration which predates pretty much every historical tribe including Phoenicians.

 

[Pax Augusta]

It is 100% a Semitic lineage not Ancient European. The oldest remains are in Jordan and Israel. You might have Crypto-Jewish paternal heritage of you are Central European and belong to it.

It's not that simple and Semitic is first and foremost a linguistic term, not a genetic term. E-M123* could even predate the Semitic languages.

 

[Khopesh_Wielder]

I posted this 8 years ago so now I know this haplogroup formed in the Middle East; although the story of its migration to Europe is still complicated. Yfull is giving the TMRCA of 1500 to 1300 BC as time of migration which predates pretty much every historical tribe including Phoenicians.

I mean what else could the origin? Neolithic? No E-M123 found. Bronze Age? Still not found. Also TMRCA only helps if there is an ancient sample who's age is close to your branch, in fact it would help if you tell me it so I can see on yfull.

 

[Khopesh_Wielder]

It's not that simple and Semitic is first and foremost a linguistic term, not a genetic term. E-M123* could even predate the Semitic languages

Proto-Semitic is agreed by most scholars to have formed in the PPNB culture, where E-M123 was found. The reason why people say Semitic is not a genetic term is in fact that most Semitic speakers today belong to the CHG lineage J which is not Semitic in origin but saying this out loud has caused chaos among Arab DNA projects in FTDNA but the truth must come forward.

 

[kingdavid]

Proto-Semitic is agreed by most scholars to have formed in the PPNB culture, where E-M123 was found. The reason why people say Semitic is not a genetic term is in fact that most Semitic speakers today belong to the CHG lineage J which is not Semitic in origin but saying this out loud has caused chaos among Arab DNA projects in FTDNA but the truth must come forward.

there are cases of e-m123 ancient remains that were found in late bronze age north pakistan among populations
who didn't spoke semitic language infact they are closer to valerius under e-m123>ft20896
specifically they fall under E-FT179548 ( this branch look like it originated in south central asia or at least in modern day iran rather than the levant or north arabia )
also there is a case in the BMAC culture I2085 individual who is e-m123>m34 (his y calls are for sure under at least e-m123)
this culture also didn't spoke semitic language ( but i could be wrong here)

p.s
but i do agree that the most ancient e-m123 cases where found in the levant
ayn- ghazal-jordan -e-m34
baj'a-south jordan -e-m84

 

[Pax Augusta]

Proto-Semitic is agreed by most scholars to have formed in the PPNB culture, where E-M123 was found. The reason why people say Semitic is not a genetic term is in fact that most Semitic speakers today belong to the CHG lineage J which is not Semitic in origin but saying this out loud has caused chaos among Arab DNA projects in FTDNA but the truth must come forward.

Could you point me to the names of these authoritative scholars who support this?

 

[Valerius]

I mean what else could the origin? Neolithic? No E-M123 found. Bronze Age? Still not found. Also TMRCA only helps if there is an ancient sample who's age is close to your branch, in fact it would help if you tell me it so I can see on yfull.

I do not know for sure based on the current data. My own theoretical interpretation is that e-m123* was mediated to Europe in the Imperial Roman period either directly from the Middle East or from ancient Anatolia - and this happened as part of the so-called “east-med shift” where Hellenized East-Med populations migrated to the various Roman provinces. But this cannot be proven by Tmrca’s or ancient dna, and is just a working theory. I was led to this idea when i recently discovered that the Roman-Anatolian contribution in Europe is still tangible in modern populations; so haplogroups are expected to match part of that aDna admixture.

 

[Khopesh_Wielder]

Could you point me to the names of these authoritative scholars who support this?

Sorry for the late reply but this my source.