E-V13 Frequencies and New Data

R

Riverman

Regular Member
Messages
2,709
Reaction score
1,424
Points
113
This is the ChatGPT estimate by relative and total numbers frequency of E-V13 by European country:

Here is an estimated ranking of E-V13 male population by country, from highest to lowest:
  1. Albania – 35-45%
  2. Kosovo – 35-40%
  3. Greece – 25-35%
  4. Montenegro – 25-35%
  5. North Macedonia – 25-30%
  6. Serbia – 20-25%
  7. Bulgaria – 18-25%
  8. Bosnia & Herzegovina – 12-18%
  9. Romania – 10-15%
  10. Croatia – 8-15%
  11. Hungary – 8-12%
  12. Slovenia – 8-12%
  13. Italy – 7-12%
  14. Moldova – 6-10%
  15. Austria – 5-10%
  16. Germany – 3-8%
  17. Czech Republic – 3-7%
  18. Slovakia – 3-7%
  19. Poland – 2-6%
  20. France – 3-5%
  21. Spain – 2-5%
  22. Portugal – 2-4%
  23. Belgium – 2-4%
  24. Netherlands – 2-3%
  25. UK (England, Scotland, Wales) – 1-3%
  26. Ireland – 1-3%
  27. Ukraine – 4-8%
  28. Belarus – 2-4%
  29. Russia (European part) – 1-3%
  30. Lithuania – 1-3%
  31. Latvia – 1-3%
  32. Estonia – 1-2%
  33. Sweden – 1-2%
  34. Denmark – 1-2%
  35. Norway – 1-2%
  36. Finland – <1%
Click to expand...

In total numbers:

Here is an estimated absolute number of E-V13 males in each European country, calculated based on approximate frequencies and male population sizes:
Estimated E-V13 Male Population by Country (Highest to Lowest)
Country
Estimated E-V13 Males
Germany
2,000,000 - 5,000,000
France
1,100,000 - 1,900,000
UK (England, Scotland, Wales)
700,000 - 2,000,000
Italy
1,500,000 - 2,600,000
Spain
750,000 - 1,800,000
Poland
500,000 - 1,500,000
Ukraine
700,000 - 1,400,000
Romania
750,000 - 1,200,000
Albania
550,000 - 700,000
Russia (European part)
500,000 - 1,000,000
Serbia
600,000 - 750,000
Bulgaria
500,000 - 700,000
Greece
600,000 - 900,000
Netherlands
200,000 - 350,000
Belgium
150,000 - 300,000
Portugal
150,000 - 250,000
Hungary
300,000 - 500,000
Austria
250,000 - 500,000
Czech Republic
200,000 - 450,000
Slovakia
100,000 - 250,000
Croatia
150,000 - 300,000
Bosnia & Herzegovina
250,000 - 400,000
Montenegro
150,000 - 250,000
North Macedonia
200,000 - 300,000
Moldova
200,000 - 350,000
Sweden
100,000 - 250,000
Denmark
50,000 - 150,000
Norway
50,000 - 100,000
Switzerland
75,000 - 200,000
Ireland
50,000 - 150,000
Belarus
100,000 - 250,000
Lithuania
50,000 - 150,000
Latvia
50,000 - 100,000
Estonia
25,000 - 75,000
Finland
10,000 - 50,000
Key Takeaways
  • Germany has the highest absolute number of E-V13 males due to its large population, despite its lower percentage.
  • France, UK, and Italy also have over a million E-V13 males.
  • Albania, Kosovo, and Greece have the highest percentages, but their total numbers are lower due to smaller population sizes.
  • Scandinavia and the Baltic states have the lowest absolute numbers.
Would you like a visualization or more details?
Click to expand...

Visualisation:

Total-Population-by-Country-Chat-GPT.jpg
 
epirus1000 said:
Why did you remove Kosova from the graph?
Click to expand...
That was ChatGPT. You can see there are some inconsistencies beside that, like some countries appearing in one column but not the other in the additional post I made on Genarchivist. No idea why it was done.
 
WHat I 'd be glad to see is the %'s.
 
I asked the same about the balkan countries this is what is got
1000035337.jpg
 
So we can say this Y-DNA is linked to Daco-Thracians ?
 
TheOne said:
So we can say this Y-DNA is linked to Daco-Thracians ?
Click to expand...

That's for sure. However, absolutely certain are for now South Thracians. North Thracians/Dacians are extremely likely to have been E-V13 and likely been dominated by other main branches (especially E-Z5018, E-Z5017), but since we haven't any Dacians proper sampled, this remains a (solid) hypothesis.
Even more speculative are the deeper origins, for which we have a couple of models, the most likely one being form my point of view the spread of E-V13 with the cremating Carpatho-Danubian cultures in the Bronze Age. But again, since we lack samples from those, it remains a hypothesis.

Probably the first proper Dacian samples will be the Carpatho-Balkan Iron Age locals which got sampled in the Ciumbrud/Transylvanian Scythian group. They being described in the abstract of the upcoming paper as being "Balkan-like", but at the same time different from South Balkan migrants (therefore not identical to say Greeks) and quite different from migrants from Northern and Eastern Europe, as well as the Scythian newcomers, which were also present in the Ciumbrud group cemetary.

This will be a mixed bunch, but they clearly describe a local Iron Age population which likely descends directly from Gáva-Holigrady or Basarabi settlers, both from Thracian Hallstatt groups/North Thracian-Dacian people. Since all the Dacian proper cultures strictly cremated their dead, with the exception of some biritual and inhumation using Basarabi groups - from which we got not samples. Therefore these Transylvanian Scythian era samples might be the first actual Dacians samples. We can just hope they have a lot of males in this multi-cultural mix.
They were completely surrounded by proper North Thracian groups like Sanislau group of Vekerzug, Kustanovice, Basarabi remains and Ferigile.

Unfortunately there is no date for the publication, but if they have sampled local male lineages in this Scythian and La Tene era cemeteries, then I'm pretty confident they will include the first proven North Thracian/Dacian E-V13 samples from the pre-Roman era.
 
Riverman said:
That's for sure. However, absolutely certain are for now South Thracians. North Thracians/Dacians are extremely likely to have been E-V13 and likely been dominated by other main branches (especially E-Z5018, E-Z5017), but since we haven't any Dacians proper sampled, this remains a (solid) hypothesis.
Even more speculative are the deeper origins, for which we have a couple of models, the most likely one being form my point of view the spread of E-V13 with the cremating Carpatho-Danubian cultures in the Bronze Age. But again, since we lack samples from those, it remains a hypothesis.

Probably the first proper Dacian samples will be the Carpatho-Balkan Iron Age locals which got sampled in the Ciumbrud/Transylvanian Scythian group. They being described in the abstract of the upcoming paper as being "Balkan-like", but at the same time different from South Balkan migrants (therefore not identical to say Greeks) and quite different from migrants from Northern and Eastern Europe, as well as the Scythian newcomers, which were also present in the Ciumbrud group cemetary.

This will be a mixed bunch, but they clearly describe a local Iron Age population which likely descends directly from Gáva-Holigrady or Basarabi settlers, both from Thracian Hallstatt groups/North Thracian-Dacian people. Since all the Dacian proper cultures strictly cremated their dead, with the exception of some biritual and inhumation using Basarabi groups - from which we got not samples. Therefore these Transylvanian Scythian era samples might be the first actual Dacians samples. We can just hope they have a lot of males in this multi-cultural mix.
They were completely surrounded by proper North Thracian groups like Sanislau group of Vekerzug, Kustanovice, Basarabi remains and Ferigile.

Unfortunately there is no date for the publication, but if they have sampled local male lineages in this Scythian and La Tene era cemeteries, then I'm pretty confident they will include the first proven North Thracian/Dacian E-V13 samples from the pre-Roman era.
Click to expand...
I do agree with you on Thracian beeing E-V13 and hoppfully the Dacians are to, BUT how come in east balkans that there are not more of it if we look % wise, yes there were other peolpe comming and going, but how could it reduce to somewhere between 15-25%
 
MandM said:
I do agree with you on Thracian beeing E-V13 and hoppfully the Dacians are to, BUT how come in east balkans that there are not more of it if we look % wise, yes there were other peolpe comming and going, but how could it reduce to somewhere between 15-25%
Click to expand...

Well, you had Germanic areas in Eastern Germany-Poland which went from 100 percent Germanic to almost 0 percent in the Slavic era. Therefore going from say 95 to 20 % is not that bad after all. However, the true replacement rate might be higher, because a lot of the E-V13 branches in Bulgaria today are more recent Dacian newcomers in my opinion, whereas the South Thracian branches became way more rare while being absolutely dominant in the EIA.

It is pretty much the same, even more extreme, with Illyrian J-L283 in the West Balkan zone, since they were hit even harder already by the Romans, and then by the various events.

Basically you could say that E-V13 got hit hard, but largely got re-distributed over many areas in which it was absent or much less frequent before, while in some areas it got nearly extinct just like J-L283. E.g., a lot of the Bulgarian E-V13 is not a deep rooted presence per se, but Bulgarian Vlach founder events.

The survival rate of the pre-Roman Paleobalkan people is generally pretty bad, but E-V13 was able to balance things out because some E-V13 branches joined the Slavs early, while others expanded with Vlachs and Albanians in particular. The full scale East Balkan presence and diversity got much reduced and if these other factors (early Slavic branches, Vlachs and Albanians) wouldn't have been present, E-V13 would be reduced as much as J-L283 in the West Balkans, which it is not.
 
I mean you can see Dardania was close to Dacia / Thracia here


476600757_122198016344158926_6792379223642471360_n.jpg



There is a theory that Dardania was ''Thracianized'' at a later date.
 
ChatGPT is not reliable for that. Rrenjet has the most Albanian samples tested to date, compared to any other minor study, with a major spread between most regions of Albania. Only, Kosove, and North Macedonia being less tested (due to more resistance from the people in the case of North Macedonia). That will hopefully change with time.

Make no mistake, it's significant, but not the percentages claimed.

E-V13 in Albanians:

1,793 tested Albanians to date (all regions) - 28.2%
1,198 tested Gheg Albanians - 30.5%
563 tested Tosk Albanians - 23.3%
1,293 tested in Albania - 27.6%
291 tested in Kosove - 33.7%
136 tested in Macedonia - 19.1%

Statistikat – Rrënjët

rrenjet.com rrenjet.com
 
We have discussed this before Rrenjet is not reliable. We don't know how they sampled, what is the sampling strategy. E-v13 among Albanians in Kosovo and Macedonia is much higher from other studies.

Rrenjet is run by people who have shared anti E-V13 views around. None of admins is E-V13 and they don't accept any E-V13 Alboh near the project inner circle.
 
The admins and reps of rrenjet downplay E-V13 heritage among Albanians, they're stance is no longer hidden and now they are quite open about it. They went to great lengths to install an admin in gen archivist whose only purpose is to police anyone who wants to discuss E-V13 heritage in Albanian or even say nice things about E-V13 heritage.

In rrenjet database E-V13 is consistently smaller for every Albanian region than those of random studies. In fact Sandzak Bosnians have higher E-V13 ratios than any of those statistics from rrenjet. Sus data from sus people.
 
Hawk said:
We have discussed this before Rrenjet is not reliable. We don't know how they sampled, what is the sampling strategy. E-v13 among Albanians in Kosovo and Macedonia is much higher from other studies.

Rrenjet is run by people who have shared anti E-V13 views around. None of admins is E-V13 and they don't accept any E-V13 Alboh near the project inner circle.
Click to expand...
Your claims are based on unverified assumptions rather than data. If you’re going to challenge Rrenjet’s findings, you need to present concrete alternative studies with transparent methodologies, not vague generalizations.

What studies are you referring to? What regions were sampled? What was the sample size? Without that information, your argument holds no weight.

Rrenjet’s dataset includes 291 samples from Kosovo alone (and growing), along with a growing collection from Macedonia. If you know of a study with a larger, more regionally balanced dataset, feel free to share. Otherwise, dismissing a project simply because its findings don’t align with your expectations and because they don't have a E-V13 admin is intellectually dishonest.

Regarding Macedonia, I sponsored a good portion of the samples (wish I could do more), ensuring some diversity/spread—particularly in the northwest, where most participants were more willing to test. The lack of representation in the southwest and other areas, including the ongoing challenge of finding participants in Shkup highlight the real issue: skepticism and reluctance among Albanians to engage in genetic testing, not any supposed bias within Rrenjet.

Finally, your suggestion of an anti-E-V13 agenda is not only baseless but also logically incoherent. Sample collection is driven by user donations and sponsorship requests, meaning individuals decide where their contributions go. Some don't specify (which allows for even spread). Myself however, I target specific regions of interest (Northern/Central Albania, Southern Kosove, and Northwest Macedonia). In fact, Rrenjet has been so transparent, that I have received a complete breakdown of all the kits, and donations and where they are allocated.

If E-V13 were being intentionally suppressed, it would require active interference in donation allocations, which is an absurd claim with no evidence to support it. If they were so anti E-V13, it wouldn't even be documented as the most dominant Y-DNA in the project. E-V13 remains the dominant haplogroup among Albanians - just not to the inflated degree that your personal biases might prefer. If reality doesn’t conform to your expectations, that’s a you problem, not a Rrenjet problem.
 
At FTDNA, E-V13 (vs. A-PR2921) is at 37.35 % (31/83) in Kosovo, plus one E-L618 on top. So no big leap, but still 3 % higher in this smaller sample.
 
PaleoRevenge said:
The admins and reps of rrenjet downplay E-V13 heritage among Albanians, they're stance is no longer hidden and now they are quite open about it. They went to great lengths to install an admin in gen archivist whose only purpose is to police anyone who wants to discuss E-V13 heritage in Albanian or even say nice things about E-V13 heritage.

In rrenjet database E-V13 is consistently smaller for every Albanian region than those of random studies. In fact Sandzak Bosnians have higher E-V13 ratios than any of those statistics from rrenjet. Sus data from sus people.
Click to expand...
Your claims are demonstrably false and entirely disconnected from actual data. The Rrenjet project provides the largest and most detailed Albanian Y-DNA dataset to date, covering nearly 2,000 samples with precise regional breakdowns that no other study even comes close to matching. Yet you claim some vague, undefined "random studies" contradict its findings. Where are these studies? What is their sample size? What is their methodology? What is their regional breakdown? You have nothing. Meanwhile, here is the reality:

Among 1,793 ethnic Albanian samples, E-V13 is 28.2%, making it the single most dominant haplogroup in the dataset. Among Gheg Albanians (1,198 samples), E-V13 is 30.5%, while among Tosk Albanians (563 samples), it is 23.3%. In nearly every major Albanian region sampled, E-V13 remains the most frequent haplogroup.

A regional breakdown further destroys your false narrative:

In Kosovo (291 samples), E-V13 is 33.7%, again the dominant haplogroup, and well above the overall average. The breakdown by city shows: Gjakovë (33.3%), Pejë (39.3%), Prizren (16.1%), Ferizaj (41.7%), Gjilan (28%), Prishtinë (40.3%), and Mitrovicë (45.9%). If you claim Rrenjet is "suppressing" E-V13, then why does it remain the single most dominant haplogroup in Kosovo, with some of the highest concentrations anywhere?

In Albania (1,293 samples total), E-V13 is 27.6%, still the most frequent haplogroup in the country. The city-by-city breakdown confirms its dominance in most regions:

  • Berat (29.8%)
  • Dibër (21.8%)
  • Durrës (38.1%)
  • Elbasan (25.3%)
  • Fier (15.1%)
  • Gjirokastër (26.5%)
  • Korçë (20.7%)
  • Kukës (31.8%)
  • Lezhë (38.5%)
  • Shkodër (33.3%)
  • Tiranë (34.8%)
  • Vlorë (20.6%)
This directly contradicts your false claim that Rrenjet shows "lower E-V13 for every region." In most areas, E-V13 is either the single most common haplogroup or among the highest.

The only region where E-V13 is not dominant is Macedonia (136 samples, 19.1%), and that is because the Albanian population there has been far less willing to test. I personally funded many of those samples, and I can tell you firsthand that finding test participants in Macedonia has been extremely difficult, especially in the southwest and in Shkup. But even in Macedonia, Polog is 27.3% E-V13, while other regions suffer from small sample sizes that make generalizations unreliable.

Your bizarre attempt to compare Sandžak Bosniaks to Albanians is a transparent deflection. The fact that a small Slavic population with a founder effect has a high E-V13 percentage means absolutely nothing when compared to a dataset of nearly 2,000 Albanians spread throughout all Albanian occupied regions. You are grasping at straws because you have no valid argument. Most of those Sandžak Bosniaks are of Albanian origin anyways, and likely migrated there from specific areas in North-West Albania/Montenegro. It's like saying I1 reaches high levels in Puke, and the other areas are "manipulated" to make them appear lower than reality.

Finally, your claim that Rrenjet "suppresses" E-V13 is laughable in light of the actual data which largely reports it's dominance across the board. It's also clearly demonstrating your own bias/agenda for the heavy handed obsession with ensuring E-V13 must be dominant in every region on a macro and micro level. If Rrenjet were truly manipulating results, why is E-V13 still the most common haplogroup overall? Why does it dominate Kosovo? Why is it leading in most major Albanian cities? The reality is simple: E-V13 is dominant, just not to the exaggerated degree you wish it was.

Unless you can provide a study with more samples, more transparency, and better regionalization than Rrenjet’s dataset, your argument is meaningless. Facts do not change to accommodate your personal bias. The numbers speak for themselves—and they expose you as factually wrong, statistically illiterate, and completely out of your depth.
 
Last edited:
Riverman said:
At FTDNA, E-V13 (vs. A-PR2921) is at 37.35 % (31/83) in Kosovo, plus one E-L618 on top. So no big leap, but still 3 % higher in this smaller sample.
Click to expand...
Yes, because smaller generalized sample sizes are always more reliable than larger more detailed ones, right? lol
 
Last edited:
Riverman said:
At FTDNA, E-V13 (vs. A-PR2921) is at 37.35 % (31/83) in Kosovo, plus one E-L618 on top. So no big leap, but still 3 % higher in this smaller sample.
Click to expand...
Kosovo is one of the most undertested areas, there are millions of Kosovars , many have migrated to the west since 80s, Turkey or have been ethnically cleansed through wars and invasions, plagues, diseases etc. There are many Kosovars that have never tested.
 
TheOne said:
Kosovo is one of the most undertested areas, there are millions of Kosovars , many have migrated to the west since 80s, Turkey or have been ethnically cleansed through wars and invasions, plagues, diseases etc. There are many Kosovars that have never tested.
Click to expand...

Samples on Kosove are growing. And many are currently testing WGS. Rrenjet is also launching a sub project within, which aims to test those of Albanian descent in, Turkey, the Levant and other areas they went to.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top