E1b1b1 and J2 in Balkans and Italy

Fire Haired14

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Y-DNA haplogroup
R1b DF27*
mtDNA haplogroup
U5b2a2b1
I'm going to use this thread to post information I find on E1b1b1-M35 and J2-M410 in Italy/Balkans in the future.

I'm thinking of making a Y DNA blog like I did for mtDNA, so I've been looking at Y DNA studies. The results for Italy and Balkans are interesting because both share high frequencies of E1b1b1-M35 and J2-M410 which are the primary lineages of West Asia.

Italy and Balkans are unlike any-other region in Europe because of E1b and J2. In all other regions in Europe post-Neolithic founder effect-lineages dominate: R1b-L151 in West Europe, I1/R1a-Z284/R1b-U106 in Scandinavia, R1a-Z282 and I2a1b2 in East Europe, N1c1 in Far East Europe.

What's the relation between Italy/Balkan and West Asian J/E1b? Data I've looked at so far prove most Italy/Balkan E1b belong to the same lineage as most other European E1b but not West Asian. This means most Italy/Balkan split a very long time ago from West Asian E1b. My guess is the split occurred in the Neolithic or earlier(Mesolithic?). Maciamo has a theorizes E1b-V13 was picked up by Neolithic farmers from West Asia and is of pre-Neolithic origin in Mediterranean Europe.

J2 in Italy and the Balkans is a little differnt, because most Balkan J2 is J2b. I haven't found any high resolution J2 data, and so don't have much to say about possible origins. My guess is most arrived from West Asia after the Neolithic.
 
E1b1b and J2 in Italy and the Balkans are quite different from each other. In the Balkans most E1b1b is E-V13 (except in Greece and Bulgaria), while in Italy all subclades are found: V12, V13, V22, M34, M81 and even the rare V65 from North Africa. The most common, although by no means dominant, type of E1b1b in Italy is the Middle Eastern (Proto-Semitic ?) M34.

Same story for J2. Italy has much more diversity, especially for J2a. In the Balkans, over half of the lineages belong to J2b, which .

Albania and Kosovo have particularly little diversity for E1b1b and J2 subclades: mostly E-V13 and J2b2.

One reason Italy might have such diversity is that it was the center of the Roman Empire and people flocked from all parts of the Mediterranean.
 
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Great idea! I would also like to add that in the Balkans the vast majority of E1b belongs to V13, while the most represented J2 subclade seems to be J2b2-L283. This is especially true for the Albanian speaking areas, where I have noticed that, contrary to what has been said before, V13 seems to be pretty diverse based on Y37 haplotypes from the results we have in our FTDNA project thus far.
https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/albanian-bloodlines/about
 
Low diversity of J2 and E1b1b in the Balkans is the results of quite recent founder effect. Italy has a bigger diversity of those haplotypes so it's logical to think that they entered in the Italy during the mesolitich and later spread to the Balkans in the neolitich, hence the founder effect and the lower diversity. This was dimostrated by Trombetta et al 2015.
 
E1b1b and J2 in Italy and the Balkans are quite different from each other. In the Balkans most E1b1b is E-V13 (except in Greece and Bulgaria), while in Italy all subclades are found: V12, V13, V22, M34, M81 and even the rare V65 from North Africa. The most common, although by no means dominant, type of E1b1b in Italy is the Middle Eastern (Proto-Semitic ?) M34.Same story for J2. Italy has much more diversity, especially for J2a. In the Balkans, over half of the lineages belong to J2b, which .Albania and Kosovo have particularly little diversity for E1b1b and J2 subclades: mostly E-V13 and J2b2.One reason Italy might have such diversity is that it was the center of the Roman Empire and people flocked from all parts of the Mediterranean.

V65 has been found only in Sardinia and in Sicily, while E-M81 is much commoner in the Balkans, France and Iberia than in Italy.

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_E1b1b_Y-DNA.shtml#M81


Albanians are similar to Jews or North Caucasians: a very inbred bunch with low haplotype diversity due to a very recent founder effect.
 
Albanians are similar to Jews or North Caucasians: a very inbred bunch with low haplotype diversity due to a very recent founder effect.

Obviously, you seem to have something against Albanians and you will choose to ignore any meaningful data. Show me proof when when these "recent" founder effects happened among Albanians.

This is the facts. Albanians are overwhelmingly represented by Balkan haplogroups, such as E-V13, J2b2, and R1b Balkan Cluster. Now how would that be a "recent" founded effect when these haplogroups diversified in or around the Balkans since at least the Bronze Age. I guess Albanians migrated from the Balkans to the Balkans by your logic. Show me data, not ignorance.
 
Great idea! I would also like to add that in the Balkans the vast majority of E1b belongs to V13, while the most represented J2 subclade seems to be J2b2-L283. This is especially true for the Albanian speaking areas, where I have noticed that, contrary to what has been said before, V13 seems to be pretty diverse based on Y37 haplotypes from the results we have in our FTDNA project thus far.
https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/albanian-bloodlines/about

TMRCA for E-V13 is estimated 4300 years, that is a bronze age expansion somewhere in the Balkans, possibly some proto- Illyrians, Thracians & Myceneans ?
 
Obviously, you seem to have something against Albanians and you will choose to ignore any meaningful data. Show me proof when when these "recent" founder effects happened among Albanians.

This is the facts. Albanians are overwhelmingly represented by Balkan haplogroups, such as E-V13, J2b2, and R1b Balkan Cluster. Now how would that be a "recent" founded effect when these haplogroups diversified in or around the Balkans since at least the Bronze Age. I guess Albanians migrated from the Balkans to the Balkans by your logic. Show me data, not ignorance.


Its a Serb. Don't look at the avatar! Ignore his posts.
 
Fire-Haired, where did you get the idea that yDna "E" is only a factor in Italy and the Balkans? if you're going to be looking at yDna "E" and "J" in Europe I think you should extend your scope to include Spain and Portugal, otherwise you won't have the full story.
Haplogroup-E1b1b.jpg


Haplogroup-J2.jpg


(I don't know whether these maps have been updated since 2013.)
I'd be sure to take a look at the two Boattini studies, and as mentioned above, the Trombetta 2015 paper, but if you want your tables to be accurate there are many studies on the issue. (It's important to actually read the Trombetta paper, and the others for that matter. Just listing the varieties doesn't go all that far in analyzing the data.)

Boattini et al:
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0065441

This is actually Sarno et al, but Boattini is one of the authors:
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0096074#pone-0096074-t001

(One needs to be mindful that these are small samples so it wouldn't do to conclude, for example, that a large number of E-M81 people settled in Emilia-Romagna. One also has to remember that these clades came at different times from different places, and some of them are very minor in terms of frequency.)

Trombetta et al:
http://gbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/7/7/1940.full

The Boattini papers were discussed here, and there's some good analysis if I say so myself. :)
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28670-Distribution-of-J2-subclades-in-Italy-(Boattini-et-al-)

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28670-Distribution-of-J2-subclades-in-Italy-(Boattini-et-al-)

Of course, all of this analysis was before the discovery of J2 and E-V13 in the Neolithic Balkans 4700 BC, or J2 in a Bronze Age warrior, which makes us look very prescient indeed. :)

(It's true that E-V13 experienced a major expansion in the late Bronze Age, and some of the E-V13 in Liguria, for example, could be attributable to trading contacts with Greece. However, I still think it's possible some dates back to the Neolithic. We need some very detailed resolution of these "E" clades similar to what has been done for R1b.)

I can't find a thread related to Trombetta et al 2015. Surely we discussed it?
 
TMRCA for E-V13 is estimated 4300 years, that is a bronze age expansion somewhere in the Balkans, possibly some proto- Illyrians, Thracians & Myceneans ?

Totally agree. J2b2-L283 is showing expansion at 4300 ybp too, most likely somewhere in the Balkans as well where its greatest diversity and frequency is:
www.yfull.com/tree/J-L283/
 
Albanians are older than Dinosaurs. LoL

By the way Italy has the greatest diversity of E-M78 while the Balkans has only the V13 subclade. It's obvious that the E1b1b arrived in Albania from the other side of the Adriatic sea quite recently and went through a huge founder effect...
 
that would be the main subclade J-Z597 then ?

If we look at the J-L283 (J2b2a) as a whole, it actually diversified 9700 ybp. The problem is that J-L283* has so far only been found in a sample in Netherlands and one in Sardinia. Similarly J-Z600* ,TMRCA 5200 ybp, has so far only been found in Sardinia and Tuscany. As you pointed out, in the Balkans we find subclades of J-Z597, TMRCA 4300 ybp.

I think the reason why we are missing those earlier branches of J2b2-L283 from the Balkans is because of either not enough samples from the Balkans, or they only survived in Sardinia/Tuscany ond one in Netherlands. Nonetheless, in the Balkans J2b2 is showing expansion at 4300 ybp starting with J-Z597, Z628 according to present data.
www.tree.j2-m172.info/?Hg=J2b2a1

www.yfull.com/tree/J-L283/
 
Albanians are older than Dinosaurs. LoL

By the way Italy has the greatest diversity of E-M78 while the Balkans has only the V13 subclade. It's obvious that the E1b1b arrived in Albania from the other side of the Adriatic sea quite recently and went through a huge founder effect...

The greater diversity of E-78 in Italy is much more probable for Rome being the New York of the ancient world with the many Immigrants it attracted from the surrounding world. Bicicleur statement is much more probable "TMRCA for E-V13 is estimated 4300 years, that is a bronze age expansion somewhere in the Balkans, possibly some proto- Illyrians, Thracians & Myceneans ?"
 
Albanians are older than Dinosaurs. LoL

By the way Italy has the greatest diversity of E-M78 while the Balkans has only the V13 subclade. It's obvious that the E1b1b arrived in Albania from the other side of the Adriatic sea quite recently and went through a huge founder effect...


There are hints that E could have landed first in Italy.
But don't forget Italy has a very complex history with North Africa.
Hanibal conquered Italy in Roman time. Carthagene was Hannibal's home town. Many of his fighters did not make it back to north Africa. There is a more recent conquest of Sicily from Arabs. Sicilians are all over Italy and the New World. There was a large Jewish immigration since Roman time in Italy. There was a large number of slaves and artisans imported from Rome mainly from Syria to build their Engineering works. If you check Italy's J1 haplogroup will notice that is very large in Italy. Its because of Roman dealing with Mediterranean world. Also Rome Imported all knowledgeable Greeks who new arts and sciences. Italy has a large old Greek settlements who did not stay still but moved over time all over Italy. Italy has old Albanian settlements and new one as well. Italy interacted heavy with Spaniards and French, people with large amounts of E
So of course E will be more diverse because of these population moves and complex history.
But since you are not Italian have no knowledge of these facts. You better look at the haplogroup Q of your people.
Albanians on the other hand had zero interaction with North Africa and MEditerranian so of course E is not that diverse.
 
There are hints that E could have landed first in Italy.
But don't forget Italy has a very complex history with North Africa.

Depend which E's. You would find that Berber E-M81, Balkan E-V13 and other E's have a completely different migration story and time spans. E-M81 is probable to enter Europe direct from North Africa especially through the straights of Gibraltar even from the Neolithic. However the popular present theory is E-V13 might know its origins through the east or Balkan proper.

This has already been extensivly discussed on this thread http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30814-Where-did-E-V13-originate
 
Albanians were a center of world for much longer than the Italians, because they were part of the Greek-Byzantine-Ottoman empires for like 99% of their history.

I am just quoting Trombetta et al which confirms that the E-V13 migrated in the Balkans from Italy, where the GREATEST DIVERSITY OF E-M78 is found.

You either post a peer reviewed DNA paper to support your blabbling about "roman slaves" or just shut up.

Plus the E-V65 is only found in Sardinia and in Sicily, while Albania has more E-M81 than 90% of mainland Italy.
Haplogroup-E-M81.gif
 
There are hints that E could have landed first in Italy.
But don't forget Italy has a very complex history with North Africa.
Hanibal conquered Italy in Roman time. Carthagene was Hannibal's home town. Many of his fighters did not make it back to north Africa. There is a more recent conquest of Sicily from Arabs. Sicilians are all over Italy and the New World. There was a large Jewish immigration since Roman time in Italy. There was a large number of slaves and artisans imported from Rome mainly from Syria to build their Engineering works. If you check Italy's J1 haplogroup will notice that is very large in Italy. Its because of Roman dealing with Mediterranean world. Also Rome Imported all knowledgeable Greeks who new arts and sciences. Italy has a large old Greek settlements who did not stay still but moved over time all over Italy. Italy has old Albanian settlements and new one as well. Italy interacted heavy with Spaniards and French, people with large amounts of E
So of course E will be more diverse because of these population moves and complex history.
But since you are not Italian have no knowledge of these facts. You better look at the haplogroup Q of your people.
Albanians on the other hand had zero interaction with North Africa and MEditerranian so of course E is not that diverse.

Let's try not to live up to our avatar names, shall we?

Everybody's y lines came from somewhere else. The more I see of both modern and ancient dna results the more I'm starting to think that you're much better off looking at mtDna distributions than yDna distributions if you're interested in the autosomal signature of a people.

Be that as it may, if we're going to talk about the "E" lines in Europe, all indications are that it may have been part of the Neolithic, which largely arrived in Europe via the Mediterranean Sea. Even if it or E-M78 by some chance arrived in Europe (Italy or Balkans) directly from North Africa, it would still have arrived via the Mediterranean Sea.

It's also a mistake to think that every passing army or occupation force necessarily leaves a big mark even on yDna distributions, much less autosomal dna. Don't we know better than this after the papers of the last couple of years? Or are we going to go back to trying to find Ottoman lineages in the Balkans.

I would also suggest that you review some of the historical events to which you allude. I'm not going to correct all your mistakes, but just for one, many of Hannibal's troops were Iberian, Ligurian and on and on by the time he got to southern Italy. There's also no way that you could know who stayed and who left anywhere, after any occupation, unless you happen to have a time machine handy?
 

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