Immigration Europe raises bar for immigrants

[Wang]

Europe raises bar for immigrants

Rules tightened as sentiment turns

Link to the article.

EDIT by Maciamo : Please refrain from posting full articles from other websites. I just left the link. If you want to post some parts of it, use quotes and comment on them.

 

[Maciamo]

From the article linked above ;

In Britain, public anger over large numbers of illegal immigrants erupted last month when the government admitted that it had accidentally freed 1,023 foreigners convicted of serious crimes -- including murder and rape -- instead of deporting them.

Now that sounds like a typical immigration story from Western Europe !

Let's have a look at the situation in Germany and the Netherlands :

Many of the country's 3 million Muslims, including second- and third-generation descendants of guest workers, speak little German and live in immigrant communities where joblessness is high and high school graduation rates are low.

'There are over 600,000 people in the country [of 16 million] who can't speak proper Dutch and are mostly unemployed,"

So similar to the situation here in Belgium ! I heard in the news that 40% of the people in jail in Belgium are from Moroccan origin. 95% of people from Moroccan descent living in Belgium chose not to take on Belgian nationality, yet most of them have lived here for more than 20 years, when they were not born in Belgium. Belgiumis the 2nd country worldwide to give the most citizenship per application after Canada. It even grants citizenship to illegal immigrants who have stayed in the country for 5 years of more. This clearly shows the little motivation of Moroccan immigrants to integrate into Belgian society. Indeed, I can't remember hearing a Moroccan in Belgium speak without a strong Moroccan accent, even the 2nd and 3rd generations !

The Netherlands faces a similar situation: In some cities, such as Rotterdam, immigrants and their offspring represent 50 percent of the population.

35% of Brussels' case.

I totally disagree with the article's conclusion :

But analysts also say Western Europe cannot survive without immigrants. New blood is required to offset declining birth rates, expand economies, and -- not least of all -- pay the taxes to support pensions and other social programs that benefit all Europeans.

''The world is changing, Europe is changing, and Holland must accept change, too, even though many Dutch fear it," said Jean Tillie at the University of Amsterdam's Institute for Migration and Ethnic Studies. ''New laws truly intended to promote social cohesion and more tolerance may be necessary. But laws created out of fear and mistrust will eventually do more harm than good. Europe needs immigrants."

Many people see declining birthrate as a terrible evil because it means a decrease of the population and thus a decrease of the GDP. However, as long as the GDP per capita keeps growing and unemployment is low, what is the big fuss about ? Belgium now has about 8% of unemployment, but about half of this is made by immigrants who do not try to integrate (e.g. don't even learn the language) and who receive money from the government to survive. So immigration from developing countries is actually doing more harm than good, as it creates crime (=> 40% of prisoners in Belgium are Moroccans alone !) and put train on tax payers to sustain the mostly unemployed, uneducated and unintegrated immigrants from poor countries. It's like a big government sponosred charity that the native population didn't ask for and is becoming completely fed up with after 2 or 3 decades.

If Europe "needs" to sustain its population, it needs to be much more selective and encourage high-skilled workers while discouraging poorly educated ones. Governments are only starting to understand that now (see new immigration regulations in Belgium and the Netherlands), after a few decades of head stuck in the ground. These are "lost decades" and its effects will continue to be a burden on the country as long as the benighted poors from abroad sincerely try to adapt or go back to Africa.

 

[Minty]

So similar to the situation here in Belgium ! I heard in the news that 40% of the people in jail in Belgium are from Moroccan origin. 95% of people from Moroccan descent living in Belgium chose not to take on Belgian nationality, yet most of them have lived here for more than 20 years, when they were not born in Belgium. Belgiumis the 2nd country worldwide to give the most citizenship per application after Canada. It even grants citizenship to illegal immigrants who have stayed in the country for 5 years of more. This clearly shows the little motivation of Moroccan immigrants to integrate into Belgian society. Indeed, I can't remember hearing a Moroccan in Belgium speak without a strong Moroccan accent, even the 2nd and 3rd generations !

It amazes me how similar your views are in comparison to my husband about Europe's culture in general and issues of Europe. But I don't find it is the case with other Belges here though for some reason.

My husband also feels fairly frustrated with the Arabian immigrants, many French don't see them as peaceful people.

Recently France has passed a law in the lower house that is approved where she no longer accepts illegal immigrants as citizens after ten years of living in France. The French feel by giving illegal immigrants citizenships will just encourage illegal immigrants to come which brings trouble.

Many people see declining birthrate as a terrible evil because it means a decrease of the population and thus a decrease of the GDP. However, as long as the GDP per capita keeps growing and unemployment is low, what is the big fuss about ? Belgium now has about 8% of unemployment, but about half of this is made by immigrants who do not try to integrate (e.g. don't even learn the language) and who receive money from the government to survive. So immigration from developing countries is actually doing more harm than good, as it creates crime (=> 40% of prisoners in Belgium are Moroccans alone !) and put train on tax payers to sustain the mostly unemployed, uneducated and unintegrated immigrants from poor countries. It's like a big government sponosred charity that the native population didn't ask for and is becoming completely fed up with after 2 or 3 decades.

I heard in Germany they have a high record of unemployment rate too, is this largely also due to immigrants as well?

If Europe "needs" to sustain its population, it needs to be much more selective and encourage high-skilled workers while discouraging poorly educated ones. Governments are only starting to understand that now (see new immigration regulations in Belgium and the Netherlands), after a few decades of head stuck in the ground. These are "lost decades" and its effects will continue to be a burden on the country as long as the benighted poors from abroad sincerely try to adapt or go back to Africa.

I once made a comment to my husband about how wretched, penurious and unlovely the presentations of immigrants here in comparison to Australia. My husband replied "That's because we are too social here so we got the most mediocre stock of immigrants."

 

[Maciamo]

I heard in Germany they have a high record of unemployment rate too, is this largely also due to immigrants as well?

Maybe a bit less. Germany has real economic problems now, similar to those of Japan, and I think mostly due to a too rigid system and a kind of "bubble burst" effect (the economy grew too fast, a bit artificially after WWII). But Germany has quite a lot of economic immigrants too.

However a law passed in 1998 in Germany gave German citizenship to anybody born in Germany. So there shouldn't any case of people born of foreign parents and not wanting/having German nationality. Turkish language is also very close to German in pronuciation and spelling, and the Turks are much more European in culture (well maybe not emigrants for that matter) than Arabs.

I have been to Turkish districts in Brussels and I do not feel uncomfortable at all (although I am apprently the only non-Turk). With Moroccans it is very different. Just a bunch of young male Moroccans in a crowd is enough to make most people uncomfortable, as they tend to insult, spit on or provoke people for no reason.

I once made a comment to my husband about how wretched, penurious and unlovely the presentations of immigrants here in comparison to Australia. My husband replied "That's because we are too social here so we got the most mediocre stock of immigrants."

English-speaking countries may be less "social" and certainly stricter on immigration policies. For example, you get your passport and visa checked much more carefully taking the Eurostar from Brussels to London than arriving at Brussels International Airport (where checks are often inexistent). Likewise, a country like Australia will ask a visa even for some Europeans to have a visa to visit the country. I actually had to prove that I had enough money to sustain myself (as a Belgian tourist !) to extend my visa for two more months ! If they did that with foreigners in Belgium, they'd have to boot half of them out of the country !

I read in the news here that some Belgian couple were expelled from Canada after 10 years of living there because the guy had commited a minor offence 25 years earlier in Belgium and did not mention it in his visa application, but somehow the Canadian authorities got to know it later. Again, I wish European countries would have at least half as strict policies about immigrants.

Then Oceania and North America tend to get a lot of Asian and Latino immigrants, while Europe gets the poorer and more culturally rigid Muslim from North Africa, and even poorer and not very work-minded black Africans. So yes, Europe gets 'lower quality' immigrants, and is kinder on immigration rules. Add to that that Europe does not have a tradition of welcoming immigrants (like Japan, and unlike North America and Australia). No wonder that people perceive immigration so differently.

 

[Minty]

Maybe a bit less. Germany has real economic problems now, similar to those of Japan, and I think mostly due to a too rigid system and a kind of "bubble burst" effect (the economy grew too fast, a bit artificially after WWII). But Germany has quite a lot of economic immigrants too.

However a law passed in 1998 in Germany gave German citizenship to anybody born in Germany. So there shouldn't any case of people born of foreign parents and not wanting/having German nationality. Turkish language is also very close to German in pronuciation and spelling, and the Turks are much more European in culture (well maybe not emigrants for that matter) than Arabs.

I have been to Turkish districts in Brussels and I do not feel uncomfortable at all (although I am apprently the only non-Turk). With Moroccans it is very different. Just a bunch of young male Moroccans in a crowd is enough to make most people uncomfortable, as they tend to insult, spit on or provoke people for no reason.

I can see that you seem to like Turks, but I heard from my mother who knows somebody in her church who married a German then immigrated to Australia saying that they have problem with Turkish people over there though.:?

English-speaking countries may be less "social" and certainly stricter on immigration policies. For example, you get your passport and visa checked much more carefully taking the Eurostar from Brussels to London than arriving at Brussels International Airport (where checks are often inexistent).
Likewise, a country like Australia will ask a visa even for some Europeans to have a visa to visit the country. I actually had to prove that I had enough money to sustain myself (as a Belgian tourist !) to extend my visa for two more months ! If they did that with foreigners in Belgium, they'd have to boot half of them out of the country !

I read in the news here that some Belgian couple were expelled from Canada after 10 years of living there because the guy had commited a minor offence 25 years earlier in Belgium and did not mention it in his visa application, but somehow the Canadian authorities got to know it later. Again, I wish European countries would have at least half as strict policies about immigrants.

Then Oceania and North America tend to get a lot of Asian and Latino immigrants, while Europe gets the poorer and more culturally rigid Muslim from North Africa, and even poorer and not very work-minded black Africans. So yes, Europe gets 'lower quality' immigrants, and is kinder on immigration rules. Add to that that Europe does not have a tradition of welcoming immigrants (like Japan, and unlike North America and Australia). No wonder that people perceive immigration so differently.

Ever since the French banned the Headscarves worn in school, it causes a very big outrage in Muslim countries and it also seems to be the case in Anglo countries, a lot of the redneck Americans have taken this oppurtunity on the internet to bash the French; (no offence to Americans here) they don't think this is the right way to tackle this problem and accuse the French of racism.

Before I married my husband, in Australia in my class I had a classmate that was Latino, I did a project with her, and she had relatives in France, she kept on telling me that the French were racists because her relatives were not friendly to her and she even warned me of the same fate because of my skin colour.

I actually didn't receive any discrimination in France, not in Germany neither since we go there to shop for toiletries products a lot.
Except for the Swiss Guard who stamped me at the border and also every time we go through Switzerland we are always stopped which annoys my husband.:auch: :box:

 

[Mars Man]

This matter of peoples shifting and roaming around on the fairly bordered-off world is something I really wish I had the time to study more. It seems to me that it's kind of an old hunter-gatherer left-over tendency, in some way, and I really wonder what it all will lead to. Also, I wonder what will develop with this 'civilizations' idea.

Personally, I feel the EU movement is a good thing, and for that reason, perhaps taking the view/paradigm of the whole rather than any single individual historically defined province/country, would be better in considering the immigrant situation.

How 'bout this...all of EU could migrate to the Middle East for the sun, relaxation, and ocean, and, all of the Middle East could migrate to the EU to chill out a little ! MM

 

[Maciamo]

How 'bout this...all of EU could migrate to the Middle East for the sun, relaxation, and ocean, and, all of the Middle East could migrate to the EU to chill out a little ! MM

No way ! Who wants to relax in the Sun in a Muslim country where bikini are frowned upon ? Then European don't need it as the South of Europe (Portugal, Spain, Italy, Greece, Turkey...) is as hot, better equipped for tourists and has more touristic attractions than North Africa.

 

[Mars Man]

LOL !!! Yeah I agree; although I had meant in the absolute, and just didn't word it very well.

I had meant a total exchange, so that the entire political, social and cultures would have been shifted. In that case you could still have the bikinis (or even less. . . ) you wanted and it'd be ok.

But...I know just where you are coming from. :wave: