First Celts

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kenshin

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The original Celts came from central Europe. However modern central Europeans (Swiss and Austrians) don't look phenotypically Celtic in the modern interpretation (Irish, welsh). Were the original Celts closer in appearance and genes to the Irish (pale, freckles, red hair) or closer to the Swiss, Austrians, or southern Germans where the original celts came from.
 
kenshin said:
Were the original Celts closer in appearance and genes to the Irish (pale, freckles, red hair) or closer to the Swiss, Austrians, or southern Germans where the original celts came from.
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Yes.

More seriously, why not both?
 
My guess is there were two waves from the same source but they took different routes and mixed with different people along the way so look different.
 
1- Swiss people present different means of phenotypical traits according to regions, and are a bit different from Austrians themselves not too homogenous by regions.
2- As Irishpeople they show genetical admixtures (phenotype: crossings).
3- Switzerland present - rather in TODAY germanic regions, it's true - an honorable amount of red hairs and freckling.
4- Celts, spite already mixed when arriving in Western Europe, were surely less mixed than later, when sedentized with new crossings: different according to places: Irish people absorbed, I think, more HG inherited DNA than Swiss.
5- irish people were almost not concerned at all by Roman colonization and admixture which could have decreased HG DNA. It's not the case for Swiss people.
I dont discard at all numerous diverse roads taken by Celts in their long march towards West.
In short, I would say, Switzerland, mountainous, can preserv more regional differences. But also, this country sheltered more neolithic populations in some places for te same reason before Steppic imput, and accepted more new populations later.
 
Scientists - Slovakian and European archeologists speak "Celts" to people of Hallstatt culture. It are only "metaforic" Celts, it is not the same as Celts in popular literature and cinematography. British Celts and Celts of Hallstatt culture this are 2 very different ethnic groups

Hallstatt culture in wikipedia
 
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Cyril Hroník is Slovakian historian and linguistic expert with very rich and world academic career is skeptical to "Celts" in middle Europa too: Ethymology of word "Celt" (or Gals or Gaels) is "outlaw / bandit, gangster"

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Dr. Cyril Hromník
 
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'celt' is not the same thing as 'gall-' # nor 'gael' << 'gaedil''goidel'; so no common eymology for them; the best specialists tried to find an etymology for 'celt' and there is not accord on it so open are the possibilities, for I know. Taranis could surely say something up to date of more precise about it.
 
Tell me if I am wrong but the only people that identified with the word celt were the 'celtici' in southern portugal.
 
Not the only tribe, I think. Ancient Greeks mentioned Keltoi in today Southern France; they believed, i think, that Celts ruled the whole Occident of Europe at these times. A noble Arverne mentioned by Julius Caesar and supposed to be the Vercingetorix's father, was named Celtillos : name where the root "celt" is obvious.
I wonder if celtic 'kelt' would not be a I-E cognate of the current germanic word 'held': "heros"? just an hypothesis among others...
 
there are 2 groups of Celts : Halstatt and Atlantic Celts
IMO both descend from Csepl Bell Beaker
 
The terminatination Keltos Gaul celt Galates I think, personal opinion that mean speaker, or coal miners-producers
compare celtic tribes name, Walloon Walles Gaul Wallach etc etc
all fit with words like Yell, γλωττα (language)

anyway, it is not mine, but I can not remember where I heve read it or heard it.
but both cases, Speakers/language, and coal miners/fire people, are accepted by me and shared as possible,
 
suebiking said:
Tell me if I am wrong but the only people that identified with the word celt were the 'celtici' in southern portugal.
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The word 'Celt' was the name of the Gauls for themselves (the Gauls of 'Celtic' Gaul, as opposed to Belgic Gaul). The word (as part of a name, such as "Celtillus" ('little Celt' - also the name of Vercingetorix' own father) also shows up in dozens of inscriptions from Gaul.
 
Why Csepel?

bicicleur said:
there are 2 groups of Celts : Halstatt and Atlantic Celts
IMO both descend from Csepl Bell Beaker
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Csepel? - Why would you say that? did you the Boehmia group?
 
@yetos:
Galati and Kelti are surely different and Gauls is proven to be different, so i doubt they could have common etymology; wilde etymologies are the cancer of paleolinguistic; the most reliable scholars are the most prudent! And even some well graduate scientists fall in the trap of hypothesis presented as undiscutable facts, helas.
 
Taranis said:
The word 'Celt' was the name of the Gauls for themselves (the Gauls of 'Celtic' Gaul, as opposed to Belgic Gaul). The word (as part of a name, such as "Celtillus" ('little Celt' - also the name of Vercingetorix' own father) also shows up in dozens of inscriptions from Gaul.
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Be it right or wrong , to distinguish this large celtic group ( to include the balkan celts ), I have ......

All are of GALLIC ethnicity and some speak a CELTIC language and some speak a GAULISH language ............and these languages are very similar but do have some minor differences.
 
MOESAN said:
@yetos:
Galati and Kelti are surely different and Gauls is proven to be different, so i doubt they could have common etymology; wilde etymologies are the cancer of paleolinguistic; the most reliable scholars are the most prudent! And even some well graduate scientists fall in the trap of hypothesis presented as undiscutable facts, helas.
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All these are the same name of the same linguistic group.
Greeks call them Galates, belgae celts that moved to minor Asia (Brennos or vae victis story)
Herodotos names them Keltos
later Greeks call them Galloi,
their inner names Wallons Walles Wallach etc etc now this W in Greek turns to Γ K or B (C G V)
Aromani language which is celtic is called Armanesti, VLACHISTI (maybe wallachisti or villachisti?)
At the language of some Pontic Greeks we see the word γαλαντζευω (whala-) and means speak at own language/dialect

it can be coinsidence but the word for language and tongue in Greek Γλωττα Γλωσσα Γρουσσα, Γλωσσα try Γ-> wh or G and add an a, YOU GET Whalutta Whallussa or Galussa Galutta

the english word YELL cognates with the ancient Greek word ΚΕΛΕΥΩ ΚΕΛΛΩ, IE Kel-
at the lexicons we see synonyms are words
κελητας κελης κελευστης etc, means the one who is yelling orders, the yelling commander, (hero?)
in modern Greek is replaced by καλω call
The birds in Greek are not singing, they Κελ-αιδουν, they communicate and call each other
the ςατερ ατ waterfalls and streams do not make noise, they Κελ-αριζουν, they speak

PS
There is another option, that Gaul means goat leather/fleece wearer, the ai-Callicum, but I doupt

PS2
so yes I am not a linguist, and I have not conviced you
but since you are, can you explain the commonalities as concern the language?
cause I think you now have enough stable base to search,
Anyway I do not believe cancer in linguistics, but on the other hand I CAN NOT REJECT, using a scizzorcut, THAT CELT COMES FROM IE root KEL- means call speak command etc
from the same root that word Γλωσσα comes from, except if you prefer to lang- than to kel- (or it is kelan-guage?)

maybe I have not convice you, but I am certain that words Kelt Celt Gaul Whallon Whallach etc etc come from the same root of IE kel-
 
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Many sources state that some Tarim Mummies are related to Celts. How people determined their relation to ancient Celts is unclear. This one forum member wrote earlier. The physical appearance of Tarim Mummies has been preserved in the sand.

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Secondly, the red-haired Tarim mummies wearing tartan clothes similar to those of Hallstatt only dated from 1000 BCE, and were not tested for DNA. They might have been a later arrival to the region (who knows perhaps a very far offshoot of Hallstatt, as incredible as it sounds ? But the presence of red hair and tartan and a Centum language, all associated with Celtic people, in the Tarim basin is all incredible enough in itself, so why not ?)
 
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