Genetics confirm migration of White Croats to Croatia

[LeBrok]

Greeks have more R1a than Bosniaks, therefore Greeks are more Slavic than Bosniaks. This is the logic in these forums. I bet the majority of R1a in the Balkans is pre-Slavic IE.

Of course the specific R1a subclass matter to solve this puzzle, Like M458 and Z280

If M458 turns to be Slavic in origin (spread only by Slavs), but I2a Dinaric turns not slavic, than indeed, genetically speaking Greeks might be more Slavic than Bosnians.

 

[hrvat22]

Greeks have more R1a than Bosniaks, therefore Greeks are more Slavic than Bosniaks. This is the logic in these forums. I bet the majority of R1a in the Balkans is pre-Slavic IE.

If we assume that Greek R1a is autohton in Balkans then migration goes from Greek to other countries...

R1a..

Z280>CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>YP237>YP235>YP234>YP295>L366-C
Vasiliada 520 52, Grèce

>Z280>CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>YP237>YP235>YP234>YP295>L366-x1
Croatia..

Z280>CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>YP237>YP235>YP234>YP295>L366-C
Tryavna, Bulgarie

R-L366YP346 * L366 * YP1450... 1 SNPsformed 3000 ybp, TMRCA 3000 ybpmore

• id:YF02279 Rus

http://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L366/

Then migration goes from Greek to other countries, Croatia, Bulgaria, Rusia..etc..

Or haplotype...


>Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>CTS11962>L1029>YP417>YP418>YP1013
Grecce

Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>CTS11962>L1029>YP417>YP418*
Bulgaria

>Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>CTS11962>L1029>YP417>YP418*
Russia

http://www.yfull.com/tree/R-YP417/
R-YP418 (age: 2075 ybp)

They were brothers, two thousand years ago .. where I do not know .

 

[Finalise]

No, Lebrok, that's not how it works and that was my point. Y-Dna Frequencies are not a cogent measure of one's total genetic heritage, because they can easily change, especially in small populations.Pop. A having 20% of Haplogroup X, does not mean 20% of pop. A's total genetic heritage comes from original carriers of Haplogroup X, or whatever ethnic group carried it in antiquity.

 

[Ike]

No, Lebrok, that's not how it works and that was my point. Y-Dna Frequencies are not a cogent measure of one's total genetic heritage, because they can easily change, especially in small populations.Pop. A having 20% of Haplogroup X, does not mean 20% of pop. A's total genetic heritage comes from original carriers of Haplogroup X, or whatever ethnic group carried it in antiquity.

Only if they steal females from generation to generation.

 

[LeBrok]

No, Lebrok, that's not how it works and that was my point. Y-Dna Frequencies are not a cogent measure of one's total genetic heritage, because they can easily change, especially in small populations.Pop.

Sure but not in this case. The territory is vast and population is not small. There are no hot spots of M458 in Balkans to indicate explosion/fast growth of this subclade.
All Balkans show 2-5% of M458, and looks like consistent one time "flood" of some people. From known history it resembles Slavic invasion more than anything.

 

[Slavonac]

I think you too much connect haplogruops to nations TODAY- for example genetics of Croatians are Serbs are very similar you can check on GEDMATCH- Croatians second nation would usually be Serbian, especialy if Croatian is from BiH. And if we speak about Croatians and DNA- my opinion is that researches in Croatia are set up. I doubt that Croatia has so much I2a.

Very interesting point is that most carries of most commond surname in Croatia Horvat(which means Hrvat(Croatian)) are R1a haplogruop. So it would mean real Croatians are R1a and I2a are Ilirian tribes?

My question is if anyone has idea how R1b(Df27) came to Croatia?

 

[RobertColumbia]

...My question is if anyone has idea how R1b(Df27) came to Croatia?

R1b-DF27 is most common in Spain, Portugal, and southern France, and seems to have Basque and Celtic associations. All of these areas were also areas that were under Roman rule for quite a while, and that could provide a plausible explanation. Roman soldiers of Celtic or Basque origin could have been posted to the Balkans or could have been posted somewhere else such as Greece and made their way to the Balkans.

 

[Sigfrido]

DF27 peaks among Basques and Catalans. None of these people have Celtic ancestry. Native Catalans didn't even speak an Indo European language before the Roman conquest...

 

[Slavonac]

R1b-DF27 is most common in Spain, Portugal, and southern France, and seems to have Basque and Celtic associations. All of these areas were also areas that were under Roman rule for quite a while, and that could provide a plausible explanation. Roman soldiers of Celtic or Basque origin could have been posted to the Balkans or could have been posted somewhere else such as Greece and made their way to the Balkans.

I dont think this is case. Here in Croatia especialy Dalmatia we have many Roman settelments and many soldiers as reward got land here. But I know for sure that my family was free for centuries unlike many other Croatians who were serfs.

 

[hrvat22]

I think you too much connect haplogruops to nations TODAY- for example genetics of Croatians are Serbs are very similar you can check on GEDMATCH- Croatians second nation would usually be Serbian, especialy if Croatian is from BiH. And if we speak about Croatians and DNA- my opinion is that researches in Croatia are set up. I doubt that Croatia has so much I2a.


Very interesting point is that most carries of most commond surname in Croatia Horvat(which means Hrvat(Croatian)) are R1a haplogruop. So it would mean real Croatians are R1a and I2a are Ilirian tribes?

My question is if anyone has idea how R1b(Df27) came to Croatia?

Croats may have a half of I2a but it does not change direction of settling tribes of Croats to Dalmatia ..

In southern Poland is not mentioned Montenegrins, Bosnians, Serbs. only Croats....


Name, music, costumes, customs, flags, symbols, language has nothing to do with genes ... All who have surname Horvat may have R1a and it does not mean anything except that they come from the same ancestors ... But Croatian type of R1a has high frequency in southern Poland..

I2a is not Indo-European haplotype and now belongs to Slavs and Slav speakers who are Indo-Europeans...

 

[hrvat22]

I dont think this is case. Here in Croatia especialy Dalmatia we have many Roman settelments and many soldiers as reward got land here. But I know for sure that my family was free for centuries unlike many other Croatians who were serfs.

According to genetics Dalmatia has less Illyrian and Roman genes than northern Croatia ..

 

[hrvat22]

Originally Posted by Slavonac
...My question is if anyone has idea how R1b(Df27) came to Croatia?

Most of R1b came to Croatia or with the Croats or the Vlach...

 

[Slavonac]

Do you know maybe which subclades of R1b are common in Vlach and Croats?

Do you consider all Vlachs the same grouop- there are 2 different ethnick groups which were called Vlachs-
1. habitants of iliria(there are many sources of Vlachs and kantuns long before Turks came), 2. orthodox Vlach from Romania and Bulgaria brought by Turks armies(I assume they would be R1b-ht35). I think these 2 groups should have very different genetics althought they are sometimes mixed.

 

[Ike]

Prove with haplotypes, Serbs coming from Lusatia however genes tell a different story ..

Nowhere does it say that Serbs came from Lusatia. The original story is that they came from beyond Turkey, from a region called Boika. That may as well be somewhere here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Serbia#/media/File:Migration_of_serbs03_01.png

And you already have a people there, who can be considered and tested for the ancestry of both Lusatian and Balkan Serbs:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boyko

 

[hrvat22]

Nowhere does it say that Serbs came from Lusatia. The original story is that they came from beyond Turkey, from a region called Boika. That may as well be somewhere here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Serbia#/media/File:Migration_of_serbs03_01.png

And you already have a people there, who can be considered and tested for the ancestry of both Lusatian and Balkan Serbs:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boyko

Porfirogenet...
Serbs..
..."Called also white, who live behind Turkey at a place called Boiko, where they were neighbor of the Frankish Kingdom..

Frankish Kingdom...



Frankish Kingdom is much further than Bojko land so border was clearly at the Lusatian Sorbs land...

However even in this area of the Sorbs, or bojko region or from White Croatia.. tribe or group of people does not come to Greek and from Greek to Eastern Dalmatia as it says for the Serbs, because Serbs do not exist at that time ..

 

[Ike]

Porfirogenet...
Serbs..
..."Called also white, who live behind Turkey at a place called Boiko, where they were neighbor of the Frankish Kingdom..

Frankish Kingdom...

View attachment 7454

Frankish Kingdom is much further than Bojko land so border was clearly at the Lusatian Sorbs land...

Nowhere does it say what's the extent of Boika.

However even in this area of the Sorbs, or bojko region or from White Croatia.. tribe or group of people does not come to Greek and from Greek to Eastern Dalmatia as it says for the Serbs, because Serbs do not exist at that time ..

:facepalm: Ok, whatever

 

[hrvat22]

Do you know maybe which subclades of R1b are common in Vlach and Croats?

Do you consider all Vlachs the same grouop- there are 2 different ethnick groups which were called Vlachs-
1. habitants of iliria(there are many sources of Vlachs and kantuns long before Turks came), 2. orthodox Vlach from Romania and Bulgaria brought by Turks armies(I assume they would be R1b-ht35). I think these 2 groups should have very different genetics althought they are sometimes mixed.

I replied in a private message...If you need me I'm here..

 

[hrvat22]

Nowhere does it say what's the extent of Boika.



:facepalm: Ok, whatever

Bojka was not up to Lusatian Serbs or Moravian or White Croatia otherwise would be mentioned somewhere besides the "de administrando imperio" ....

There is no path that goes from southern Poland or neighborhood to Greek and from Greek to Dalmatia....therefore there are no people in the Balkans with that haplotype..No one to Dalmatia comes from Greek, as is claimed for Serbs...


For this reason only one who coming to Dalmatia are Croats and that genetics confirms...Serbs at that time do not exist, they exist at 9th and 10th century as a political unit formed partly of Croats as well as in Duklja or Montenegro...

 

[Ike]

Bojka was not up to Lusatian Serbs or Moravian or White Croatia otherwise would be mentioned somewhere besides the "de administrando imperio" ....

There is no path that goes from southern Poland or neighborhood to Greek and from Greek to Dalmatia....therefore there are no people in the Balkans with that haplotype..No one to Dalmatia comes from Greek, as is claimed for Serbs...


For this reason only one who coming to Dalmatia are Croats and that genetics confirms...Serbs at that time do not exist, they exist at 9th and 10th century as a political unit formed partly of Croats as well as in Duklja or Montenegro...

Ok, so why Croatia of today doesn't unite with Bosnian Croats and Montenegrins under the name of West Serbia?

 

[hrvat22]

Ok, so why Croatia of today doesn't unite with Bosnian Croats and Montenegrins under the name of West Serbia?

Why the Serbs, Macedonians, Albanians and Bulgarians do not unite under name of Turkey.?