German for Starters

[bossel]

Same as with the ch, loanwords keep their original pronunciation.

As long as they are not "eingedeutscht". That's a matter of language distance & time.

Never heard of that - where in Germany would that be?

Niederrhein (Lower or Nether Rhine). We pronounce eg. "warten" like "wachten". Another regional feature is the missing sch-sound, most of us can only pronounce it like 'ch' in "ich".

BTW, 'ch' as 'k' is not restricted to loanwords. Take the examples "h?chstens" or "n?chstes Mal".

Pretty much the only exceptions made are for loan words from foreign languages.

Loanwords are always from foreign languages, else they are not called loanwords, for what I know.

Indeed, it can vary a bit from region to region - with the big exsception being Bavaria. The dialect there, Bavarian, should better be regarded as a language of its own, as it's totally unintelligible to any normal German - but Bavaria is pretty much like a foreign country anyway, they even call themselves "Free country" :relief:

Hmm, you really have an issue with Bavaria, it seems. Don't be too negative! They are human, too. BTW, don't forget that there is more than one dialect in Bavaria.
Pretty much every dialect in Germany could be regarded as a separate language, for being unintelligible with some other German dialects. If I would speak Jl?becker Platt (the dialect of my hometown) to you, you probably wouldn't understand very much either. Luckily for you, I myself cannot really speak it (& even have problems understanding parts of it).

 

[jeisan]

ok the alphabet with my generic proncitations, used them til i could remember when i was learning. german letter left, english sound on right. letteron right = english letter if you were to say.

A - ah
B - bay
C - say
D - day
E - A
F - F
G - gay
H - ha
I - E
J - yot
K - K
L - L
M - M
N - N
O - O
P - pay
Q - coo
R - air
S - S
T - tay
U - oo
V - fay
W - va
X - ix
Y - upsilon
Z - tzet

and numbers for ya

1 - ein
2 - zwei
3 - drei
4 - vier
5 - f?nf
6 - sechs
7 - sieben
8 - acht
9 - neun
10 - sehn

 

[bossel]

Jeisan, this should be very useful for English native speakers. Almost all correct (although, of course, the pronunciation is not 100% German), only a few mis-pronunciations.

C - tsay

V - fow ('ow' as in eyebrow)

1 - eins

10 - zehn (pronounced something like 'tsayne')


'C' is a bit ambiguous in German. It can be pronounced as 'ts', 'k', 's' & even 'tsch' (in loanwords from Italian mainly).

 

[Lina Inverse]

Niederrhein (Lower or Nether Rhine). We pronounce eg. "warten" like "wachten". Another regional feature is the missing sch-sound, most of us can only pronounce it like 'ch' in "ich".

BTW, 'ch' as 'k' is not restricted to loanwords. Take the examples "h?chstens" or "n?chstes Mal".

Nope, that's not valid. In both cases, the 'ch' is clearly not pronounced as 'k' - as long as you don't come from the Nether-Rhine, that is :baka:
My area, the Ruhrgebiet (Ruhr area) also has its pecularities. 'ch' and 'sch' are always pronounced as such.
'g' at the end of a word is always pronounced like a voiced 'ch': Tag -> Tach.
't' at the end of a word is omitted: nicht -> nich, ist -> is.
'er' at the end of a word is pronounced like 'a': Futter -> Futta.
There are also a few contractions of frequently used words, like haben -> ham und wir -> wa.
So, the sentence "Haben wir nicht" would be pronounced "Ham wa nich" :haihai:

Hmm, you really have an issue with Bavaria, it seems. Don't be too negative! They are human, too. BTW, don't forget that there is more than one dialect in Bavaria.
Pretty much every dialect in Germany could be regarded as a separate language, for being unintelligible with some other German dialects. If I would speak Jl?becker Platt (the dialect of my hometown) to you, you probably wouldn't understand very much either. Luckily for you, I myself cannot really speak it (& even have problems understanding parts of it).

Clearly, this isn't true for all dialects, only for a few, most notably Plautdietsch (Low German), Frisian and Bavarian. You can see an exact list here as to which dialects are regarded as separate languages:
Languages of Germany

ok the alphabet with my generic proncitations, used them til i could remember when i was learning. german letter left, english sound on right. letteron right = english letter if you were to say.

Hate to tell you, but your pronunciation scheme is off by a good measure :relief:
I'll give a proper one below:

a - ah
b - beh
c - tseh
e - eh
f - ehf
g - gheh
h - hah
i - ee
j - yot
k - kah
l - el
m - em
n - en
o - oh
p - peh
q - kuh
r - ehr
s - ehs
t - teh
u - uh
v - fow
w - weh
x - iks
y - ipsilon
z - tset

 

[Lina Inverse]

Lesson 3
Today we'll take a look at the German articles.

Dialog 3

Im Flugzeug
Lina: Hast du alles?
Frank: Ja, ich habe alles
Lina: Bist du sicher?
Frank: Ja, ich bin sicher.

Lina: Was ist mit dem Pa??
Frank: Ja, ich habe den Pa? mit.
Lina: Was ist mit der Kreditkarte?
Frank: Ja, ich habe die Kreditkarte mit.
Lina: Was ist mit dem Rasierwasser?
Frank: Ja, ich habe das Rasierwasser mit.

Lina: Hast du auch eine Zahnb?rste?
Frank: Ich habe auch eine Zahnb?rste.
Lina: Hast du auch einen Kamm?
Frank: Ich habe auch einen Kamm.
Lina: Hast du auch ein Erste-Hilfe-Set?
Frank: Ich habe auch ein erste-Hilfe-Set.

Frank: Bist du jetzt zufrieden?
Lina: Ja, jetzt bin ich zufrieden.

Vocabulary 3:
alles: everything
Bist du sicher? Are you sure?
was: what
Pa?: passport
Kreditkarte: credit card
Schl?pfer: slip
Rasierwasser: after shave
Zahnb?rste: tooth brush
Kamm: comb
Erste-Hilfe-Set: first aid kit
jetzt: now
zufrieden: satisfied

Grammar 3
The definite articles
male singular
Nominativ: der Pa?
Genitiv: des Passes *
Dativ: dem Pa?
Akkusativ: den Pa?
plural
Nominativ: die P?sse *
Genitiv: der P?sse *
Dativ: dem P?ssen *
Akkusativ: den P?ssen *

* ? becomes ss when the two s are pronounced separately

female singular
Nominativ: die Kreditkarte
Genitiv: der Kreditkarte
Dativ: der Kreditkarte
Akkusativ: die Kreditkarte
plural
Nominativ: die Kreditkarten
Genitiv: der Kreditkarten
Dativ: den Kreditkarten
Akkusativ: die Kreditkarten

neutrum singular
Nominativ: das Rasierwasser
Genitiv: des Rasierwassers
Dativ: dem Rasierwasser
Akkusativ: das Rasierwasser
plural
Nominativ: die Rasierw?sser
Genitiv: der Rasierw?sser
Dativ: den Rasierw?ssern
Akkusativ: die Rasierw?sser

The indefinite articles
For plural, the article is omitted.
male singular:
Nominativ: ein Kamm
Genitiv: eines Kamms
Dativ: einem Kamm
Akkusativ: einen Kamm

female singular
Nominativ: eine Zahnb?rste
Genitiv: einer Zahnb?rste
Dativ: einer Zahnb?rste
Akkusativ: eine Zahnb?rste

neutrum singular
Nominativ: ein Set
Genitiv: eines Sets
Dativ: einem Set
Akkusativ: ein Set

Exercise 3
Give the appropriate answers (as in the dialog).

1. Was ist mit der Zahnb?rste?
A: Ja, _________________________
2. Was ist mit dem Kamm?
A: Ja, _________________________
3. Was ist mit dem Erste-Hilfe-Set?
A: Ja, _________________________

4. Hast du auch einen Pa??
A: Ich _________________________
5. Hast du auch eine Kreditkarte?
A: Ich _________________________
6. Hast du auch ein Rasierwasser?
A: Ich _________________________

Ok, that's it for today :wave:

 

[bossel]

Nope, that's not valid. In both cases, the 'ch' is clearly not pronounced as 'k' - as long as you don't come from the Nether-Rhine, that is :baka:

Which shows, that even I can still learn something about German. First I thought, "Oh, she's from the Ruhrgebiet! That's the reason." But then I looked it up in the Duden & you're right. :shock:
This also shows that everyday language in Germany is not the same as High German.

Clearly, this isn't true for all dialects, only for a few, most notably Plautdietsch (Low German), Frisian and Bavarian.

My argument related to you talking about Bavarian being unintelligible. Most dialects are unintelligible to those who only speak High German, except for the regions that constituted its birth area.
German is not really a language, but a dialect continuum. No matter which dialect you speak, it is pretty much unintelligible to all others (depending on the distance, naturally). This continuum has no clear boundaries between dialects, eg. the place I come from is in a transition zone from Ripuarian to Low Saxon (although according to your link, we would actually be Low Saxon), the dialect has features of both.

Furthermore, in linguistics there is actually no clear distinction between dialects & languages, even here the boundaries are blurry. You will find a lot of differing definitions. Distinctions are often more politically motivated than scientific.

Hate to tell you, but your pronunciation scheme is off by a good measure :relief:
I'll give a proper one below:

Actually, Jeisan's scheme may not correspond 100% to Standard German pronunciation (neither does yours, BTW), but it's a good starting point for native English speakers. You seem quite motivated to teach German, but I think you want too much too quickly.


BTW, Schl?pfer? Do they actually say this in the Ruhrgebiet? Seems a bit old-fashioned. I would call it Slip or Unterhose. :hat:

 

[jeisan]

lina, i know they are abit off, its hard to learn a language without being able to hear it. the main purpose of the alphabet bit was to get people to say the letters at least somewhat simliar to how they're said, get a basic idea of how it sounds. or at least how it sounded to me, a native english speaker, when i was first learning anyway. as with most things start small and build your way up, language is certainly not something you can just jump right into.

Bossel, danke sch?n.

common verb conjugations

HAVE - HABEN
i have - ich habe
you have - du hast
he/she/it has - er/sie/es hat
we have - wir haben
they have - sie haben
you (formal) - Sie haben
you (plural) - Ihr habt

BE - SEIN
i am - ich bin
you are - du bist
he/she/it is - er/sie/es ist
we are - wir sind
they are - sie sind
you (formal) - Sie sind
you (plural) - Ihr seid

 

[Lina Inverse]

My argument related to you talking about Bavarian being unintelligible. Most dialects are unintelligible to those who only speak High German, except for the regions that constituted its birth area.
German is not really a language, but a dialect continuum. No matter which dialect you speak, it is pretty much unintelligible to all others (depending on the distance, naturally). This continuum has no clear boundaries between dialects, eg. the place I come from is in a transition zone from Ripuarian to Low Saxon (although according to your link, we would actually be Low Saxon), the dialect has features of both.

Furthermore, in linguistics there is actually no clear distinction between dialects & languages, even here the boundaries are blurry. You will find a lot of differing definitions. Distinctions are often more politically motivated than scientific.

Well, I just wanted to express that the dialects are varying in different degrees from Standard High German, and while some are still intelligible to someone speaking High German, some others (especially Bavarian) are not.

BTW, Schl?pfer? Do they actually say this in the Ruhrgebiet? Seems a bit old-fashioned. I would call it Slip or Unterhose. :hat:

I would rather call "Unterhose" extremely antiquitated. Only my grandparents would use such a very old-fashioned word anymore.
"Schl?pfer" is the most common term for it and the most broadly used one. In a department store, you'll practically always find "Schl?pfer" as well. In a few cases, you might also find "Slips", but not very often, and then exclusively referring to woman's underwear.

@jeisan
Yes, it might sound different if you hear it the first time as a native American :relief:
I recommend you to take a look at the Leo site, which also has pronunciation files (wav sounds) for the German words. Here is the result page for "Schl?pfer", click on the

after the word to hear the pronunciation:
Leo - Schl?pfer

I already listed the conjugation of the auxiliary verbs (haben+sein) in my first post in this thread...

 

[jeisan]

hahahaha i missed that bit :relief:
well as this is your native language youre bound to be more on the ball about teaching it than i am. hell i dont even remember all the "the" forms anymore

interesting site lina, thanks.

 

[bossel]

I would rather call "Unterhose" extremely antiquitated. Only my grandparents would use such a very old-fashioned word anymore.
"Schl?pfer" is the most common term for it and the most broadly used one. In a department store, you'll practically always find "Schl?pfer" as well. In a few cases, you might also find "Slips", but not very often, and then exclusively referring to woman's underwear.

Sorry, but this time you are wrong (or maybe not, who knows what's going on in the Ruhrpott). What I actually associate Schl?pfer with are those underpants my grandma would wear. Slip is definitely used for men's pants as well. Unterhose may be a bit old-fashioned but is still in use, though maybe more in my social class (me being a Prolo [a pleb]) :football: .

From Duden Universalw?rterbuch:
Schl?p|fer, der; -s, - (veraltend): 1. <oft auch im Pl. mit singularischer Bed.> Unterhose mit kurzen Beinen, bes. f?r Damen u. Kinder

well as this is your native language youre bound to be more on the ball about teaching it than i am. hell i dont even remember all the "the" forms anymore

Actually, being a native does not make you a good teacher. I would advise all who start to learn a new language to do the first steps with an experienced teacher who has the same mother tongue as you. Once you know the basics, it's best to go to a country where the language you learn is spoken.
But always be careful in choosing a language school or teacher.

If you learn just for fun or to refresh your knowledge, what we do here may be good enough, though. :evil:

Two more links for learning German:
http://www2.goethe.de/z/50/linaleo/start2.htm
Beginners' course for self learners from the Goethe Institut

http://www.dw-world.de/english/0,3367,2547-0-0-S,00.html
German courses from the Deutsche Welle, beginners/intermediate/business, with audio files. They also have online radio & TV.

 

[Lina Inverse]

Sorry, but this time you are wrong (or maybe not, who knows what's going on in the Ruhrpott). What I actually associate Schl?pfer with are those underpants my grandma would wear. Slip is definitely used for men's pants as well. Unterhose may be a bit old-fashioned but is still in use, though maybe more in my social class (me being a Prolo [a pleb]) :football: .

From Duden Universalw?rterbuch:
Schl?p|fer, der; -s, - (veraltend): 1. <oft auch im Pl. mit singularischer Bed.> Unterhose mit kurzen Beinen, bes. f?r Damen u. Kinder

I don't know what sort of weird "Duden" you claim to have there, but it clearly differs from mine which neither says that it would be outdated (which it clearly isn't), nor that it is especially for Ladies and children (which it isn't either). I checked back with the online version at xipolis.net, and it's not mentioned there either:

Schl?p|fer, der; -s, -: 1. <oft auch im Pl. mit singularischer Bed.> Unterhose mit kurzen Beinen
Quelle: Duden: Das gro?e W?rterbuch der deutschen Sprache in 10 B?nden. 3., v?llig neu bearbeitete und erweiterte Auflage. Mannheim, Leipzig, Wien, Z?rich: Dudenverlag 1999.

I don't want to insinuate anything, but it seems that a certain someone added these things so that he looks good

Netlexion.de says that it's simply the German equivalent for the English "slip":
http://www.net-lexikon.de/Slip.html

Unter einem Slip, dt. Schl?pfer, versteht man eine Unterhose oder Badehose, die ohne Beinansatz geschnitten ist.

Knapper geschnittene Slips bezeichnet man als Sportslips.

Bis in die 70er Jahre des 20. Jahrhunderts trugen M?nner meist wei?e Doppelripp-Slips mit Eingriff. Diese wurden dann durch Feinripp-Slips mit Eingriff, die h?ufig auch farbig (meist hellblau oder beige) und/oder bedruckt waren sowie durch bunte Sportslips ohne Eingriff abgel?st.

Ab den 80er Jahren kamen vermehrt Boxershorts auf den Markt, in den 90ern Retropants.

 

[Golgo_13]

I still remember the first day of class in high school German in 1978.

Was machst du heute? Ich ube geige.

Wohin geht Peter? An den see.

 

[bossel]

I don't want to insinuate anything, but it seems that a certain someone added these things so that he looks good

Well, you are insinuating something & I'm pretty pissed about it. You're the 1st one I gave a bad reputation point.

My quote is from the Duden Universalw?rterbuch, part of PC-Bibliothek 2, Copyright 1993-2000 Bibliographisches Institut & F.A. Brockhaus AG.

The quote is without any addition, but I left out the following:
"2. bequem geschnittener, sportlicher Herrenmantel mit gro?en, tiefen Arml?chern;

(c) Dudenverlag"

As you see, this is not related to the slip-part, & the copyright appears automatically when copying text from the PC-Bibliothek to the clipboard.

bes. (besonders = especially/particularly) doesn't mean usage in exclusively one way, only that usage is mainly like that.

Maybe in other dictionaries the text of the entry for Schl?pfer varies, but the one I quoted is exactly according to my experience with the word. As I said, maybe the Ruhrpott has a different view of the world.


Please refrain in future from "not insinuating" that I'm a liar or cheater!

I still remember the first day of class in high school German in 1978.

Was machst du heute? Ich ube geige.

Wohin geht Peter? An den see.

3 little mistakes:
Ich ?be Geige.
An den See.

Nouns are always written with an initial capital letter.

If you are not able to write Umlaute because of your hard- or software, you can simply write them as follows:

? - ae
? - oe
? - ue

 

[Lina Inverse]

Well, you are insinuating something & I'm pretty pissed about it. You're the 1st one I gave a bad reputation point.

My quote is from the Duden Universalw?rterbuch, part of PC-Bibliothek 2, Copyright 1993-2000 Bibliographisches Institut & F.A. Brockhaus AG.

The quote is without any addition, but I left out the following:
"2. bequem geschnittener, sportlicher Herrenmantel mit gro?en, tiefen Arml?chern;

(c) Dudenverlag"

As you see, this is not related to the slip-part, & the copyright appears automatically when copying text from the PC-Bibliothek to the clipboard.

bes. (besonders = especially/particularly) doesn't mean usage in exclusively one way, only that usage is mainly like that.

Maybe in other dictionaries the text of the entry for Schl?pfer varies, but the one I quoted is exactly according to my experience with the word. As I said, maybe the Ruhrpott has a different view of the world.

Please refrain in future from "not insinuating" that I'm a liar or cheater!

Well, if you really didn't add anything about it, you should have a clear consience and absolutely no reason to throw a fit about it... if you can do that, so can I :auch:
Apparently the electronic "Unversalw?rterbuch" differs somewhat from the more precise "Duden in 10 B?nden" edition, probably due to different people working on it coming from different regions of Germany, having different opinions about how certain words are used... who knows.
What you named under 2. is also in my Duden version, but since it didn't partain to the intended meaning, I left it out.
I've never heard anyone referring to a "Schl?per" as some sort of mantle... kashii:

@Golgo 13
The cpitalization scheme differs somewhat from English. While in English, only few things are capitalized (beginning of a sentence, names, nationality references, "I"), in German, there are also nouns always capitalized. However, in turn, neither "I" ("ich" in German) nor nationality references are capitalized.

the German athlete -> der deutsche Athlet
the Italian noodles -> die italienischen Nudeln
the Japanese house -> das japanische Haus

 

[Golgo_13]

Can you guys argue in German so the rest of us don't have to understand?

 

[Lina Inverse]

Can you guys argue in German so the rest of us don't have to understand?

Well, I think there is nothing to add to this "Schl?pfer" debate, so let's get back to business.

So you learned German in High school? For how many years?

 

[Golgo_13]

I took Spanish for 3 years in Junior high and 2 years in high school, then had a year of German in high school. I recently contacted my former German teacher, Herr Schwagermann, by e-mail, and after over 20 years he still remembered me.

I got to a point where I could read Franz Kafka's "Die Verwandlung" (spell?) in German, but now I've forgotten almost all that I learned. I still remember much of my Spanish because I'm exposed to it quite a bit here in Los Angeles.

It's funny how when some of my Jewish friends speak in Yiddish I recognize some German words in them.

 

[Lina Inverse]

I took Spanish for 3 years in Junior high and 2 years in high school, then had a year of German in high school. I recently contacted my former German teacher, Herr Schwagermann, by e-mail, and after over 20 years he still remembered me.

I got to a point where I could read Franz Kafka's "Die Verwandlung" (spell?) in German, but now I've forgotten almost all that I learned. I still remember much of my Spanish because I'm exposed to it quite a bit here in Los Angeles.

It's funny how when some of my Jewish friends speak in Yiddish I recognize some German words in them.

Yes, it's "Die Verwandlung".
Are there living that much Spaniards in LA?

Concerning Yiddish, no wonder - it's also a Germanic language and very close to German, actually much closer than any other Germanic language (English, Dutch, Norse languages).
It would still be even much closer to German if it wouldn't have been for the Third Reich. Most speakers of the Yiddish dialect that was closest to German have been killed, and among the others a trend started to de-Germanize their language somewhat, although that didn't go very far.
Here's a link if you want to know more: Eydes Jiddisch

 

[Golgo_13]

Are there living that much Spaniards in LA?

Not Spaniards from Spain per se but millions of Spanish-speaking immigrants from Mexico, Guatemala, El Salvador, etc.

 

[Lina Inverse]

Not Spaniards from Spain per se but millions of Spanish-speaking immigrants from Mexico, Guatemala, El Salvador, etc.

Really? What I heard about it is that most of them come to New Mexico (hence the name), and a good amount of them also come to Texas, but Californa? That's news to me. Ok, it's not that far... but wouldn't they rather go to San Diego?