Home of R1b1b2a1b4 and swabian dialect

when did I say the hallstatt culture was illyrian? , you fail to understand that the illyrians where at the time of the great migrations in 1200-1250 BC , when many people moved from anatolia to europe, already established in the alps bordering modern germany. The celtic dominance after this was a celtinization of these illyrian settlements.

I'm honestly beginning to think that you have a very different usage for the term "Illyrian" than I do. By "Illyrians" I mean the people who lived on the approximate area of modern-day Bosnia, Croatia and Slovenia, and who spoke a (poorly-attested) Centum-Indo-European language. What is your definition?

There is also no evidence of "great movements" as you call them occuring around 1250-1200 BC occuring from Anatolia to Europe. I mean, you seem to refer to the Sea Peoples invasion, but this was in the eastern Mediterranean region, and it certainly didn't go into Europe. Also, consider that this period of the Sea Peoples is almost a millennium before the earliest mentioning of the Illyrians in written sources.

You must realise that the celtic where pushing eastward firstly , long before they moved westerly. Unless you regard the gallic as part of celtic:shocked:

Actually, the Celtic incursion into the Balkans is thought to have occured around the same time as the incursion into Italy. You have to consider that around 150-200 years later, the Celts under Brennus (the second Brennus, that is) invaded Greece in 297 BC.

Also, "Gauls" and "Celts", in the classical sense are essentially (almost) one and the same. The people whom the Romans called "Galli" and "Celtae" were the same that the Greeks called "Keltoi" and "Galates". The only difference is that the term "Gauls" became used mainly as a geographic term refering to the inhabitants of Gaul, which is why the Romans also had serious problems with identifying other Celtic-speaking peoples living further eastwards as "Gauls".

You seem to think there was nothing prior to the celts in the times before the hallstatt culture, which I find astonishing from you , being a learned person.

No, I'm not saying that there was "nothing", but I would argue it's a tad difficult to make assertations about ethnic affiliation. Generally, as I stated before, Hallstatt was preceeded by the Urnfield Culture, which spread across a large area, including areas that were later inhabited by Iberians (Catalonia), Lepontii (Alps) and Etruscans (central-northern Italy).

How yes and no claims all of europe is slavic but thats him, I never ever beleived the slavs where anywhere near europe at least till the end of the western Roman empire.

In my opinion, some of the tribes mentioned in Eastern Europe (in "European Sarmatia") may have been Slavic/Proto-Slavic, but as I stated evidence is scanty.

I am stating many many scholars who claim the vindelici where illyrian. But I do have doubts especially the genetics, BUT, genetics can be altered or watered down due to mass migrations of peoples and thats what I am referring to.

As I stated before, I don't find the case that they were Illyrian convincing at all. They were archaeologically part of the Hallstatt Culture, which is generally thought to have been Celtic. Also, all linguistic evidence suggests they were Celtic. If it wasn't for that statement by Livy, there would be no reason to not assume that they were Celtic.

Can we measure the genetics of the eastern alps?, is there a link ?

Frankly, I have no idea what you are trying to argue there or are actually looking for.

Name the ancient tribes that united to rule as a confereration and not fight between each other, because the tribal system was strong.
Illyric
celtic
gallic
venetic
Finnic
Nordic
Pictish
Sabellic
Hellenic
Doric
Thracian
etc etc
Iwhat I was referring to was that with the number of people and tribes which was in illyrian lands, they could have dominated a large portion of eastern europe

I still don't follow... :confused:
 
By the way, I would like to add something regarding the original thread topic:

"Wadel" is probably of plain old German/Germanic origin. It's probably related with the word "wedeln" (to wag, wave).
 
?? word association

Ok, lets see, jump in if I am wrong:innocent:

Alb = hill in celtic

Albon = hill people in celtic , also name of scotland

Albanoi = illyrian tribe


well Albanoi is a modern after 1200 word that entered Illyria,
Before from 1040 the existed word was Arbanites,
Arbanites claim that they came from a city named Arbanon
the ones in Italy are called ARberesh
Arbanon can have have many meanongs,
1 from latin Urban (city)
2 from Byzantinte Arberoi Ar+Veros = Veterans
3 an old thracian word toponyms like Ορβηλος Orbelos
4 tribe Albocence (thracians) of Moesia,
5 City of Alba Lullia in Romania
6 Albino = white color .....etc
the connection to link worb Albania with Ancient Illyria hmmmm

ok in Turkish we find the word Halva maybe is connected? :grin: :grin:

something that sould not pass with out see it is also the city of Arber in Dalmatia,
there was an ancient city in Dalmatia the times of Romans that was named Arber

something that should also see is that state of Alba was established by Anjou,

I think religious wars and ethnic also in area create a strange situation

Ptolemy is the first to mention the Albanopolis,
well Albanopolis to an old Propaganda was in Checcnia, the caucas Albania,
according others was the city of Arbanon that Anna Komneni mentions,
but a city so big as thessaloniki to dissapear????
in another post I gave a searcher that disagree that Arbanon was Albanopolis,

Simply the search for Ptolemy's Albanopolis is until today a debate,
we only know that Anju are connected with Alba lullia in Romania,
and that Arbanon was the center of Byzantine army that was to protect Sicily and south Italy from the catholics and the arabs, and a possible invasion in Balkans,
remember that general Maniakis was ruler of Arbanon and leader of Arbanites,
Maniakis was from Bithynia minor asia,

so the situation is more complex,
 
well Albanoi is a modern after 1200 word that entered Illyria,
Before from 1040 the existed word was Arbanites,
Arbanites claim that they came from a city named Arbanon
the ones in Italy are called ARberesh
Arbanon can have have many meanongs,
1 from latin Urban (city)
2 from Byzantinte Arberoi Ar+Veros = Veterans
3 an old thracian word toponyms like Ορβηλος Orbelos
4 tribe Albocence (thracians) of Moesia,
5 City of Alba Lullia in Romania
6 Albino = white color .....etc
the connection to link worb Albania with Ancient Illyria hmmmm

ok in Turkish we find the word Halva maybe is connected?

Let's not mix things up here: the usage of "Albanians" for the Albanians (who in their own language, call themselves "Shqiptaret") is modern, but the term "Albanoi" for an Illyrian tribe existed in antiquity. It's very unlikely that the two are connected, especially because the Albanians themselves don't use the term (or a cognate of it) in their own language.
 
when did I say the hallstatt culture was illyrian? , you fail to understand that the illyrians where at the time of the great migrations in 1200-1250 BC , when many people moved from anatolia to europe, already established in the alps bordering modern germany. The celtic dominance after this was a celtinization of these illyrian settlements.
You must realise that the celtic where pushing eastward firstly , long before they moved westerly. Unless you regard the gallic as part of celtic:shocked:

well not exactly Cadmeians
thye invaded by ships from Cyprus, or anotehr Island, the time estimation is about 2000BC
so probably Illyros was at least 1800BC

the latest of Cadmeian Theba is about 2 centuries before Ilias(Troy war), so about 15-1600 BC
we don't know until how north Illyros reach, and until his sons went,


the case that later migrations of celts to east
hmmm could someone push them? like people from Italy?
could Illyrians be not that strong so they decide to go back?

the case of Slavic is more simple than some claim,
Slavic is the culture that is connected with 6th century invasions or migrations,
is mostly after cyrillic,
but a pre-slavic or proto slavic to enter Balkans is possible.
 
I'm honestly beginning to think that you have a very different usage for the term "Illyrian" than I do. By "Illyrians" I mean the people who lived on the approximate area of modern-day Bosnia, Croatia and Slovenia, and who spoke a (poorly-attested) Centum-Indo-European language. What is your definition?

There is also no evidence of "great movements" as you call them occuring around 1250-1200 BC occuring from Anatolia to Europe. I mean, you seem to refer to the Sea Peoples invasion, but this was in the eastern Mediterranean region, and it certainly didn't go into Europe. Also, consider that this period of the Sea Peoples is almost a millennium before the earliest mentioning of the Illyrians in written sources.

when I look at history , I disregard modern borders, the illyrians where from the adraitic sea to the danube and into austria

Around 1200 BC there were big migrations in Europe (see Bronze Age Collapse) and Indo-Europeans arrived in the Carpathian Basin. In Western Pannonia, the Hallstatt culture started to emerge from 1200 BC, this is accepted as ancestor of Celts. The pre-Celtic language mixing with IE neighbours (most likely Illyrians or venetics ) produced the proto-Celtic language (S28/U152) in the Alps region, because they where already in the Alps.
In the later Hallstatt and La Tene periods, the comparative advantage of iron weapons helped the Celtic expansion in Europe.
Point is that U-152 is Celtic , L21 is not , S28 is a celtic/illyric/venetic strain
 
South-West Germany was a stronghold of celtic power in hallstatt period.
There are a lot of celtic burial sites, celtic names of mountains and rivers and celtic haplogroups (old R1b1b2a1b4 is now R1b1a2a1a1b3 or R1b-U152).
So I think, some celtic words have survived and are now in the german language or in local dialects.
 
in regards to swabian areas, correct me if I am wrong, but are these the modern region of freiburg, baden-baden and wurtenburg?

If so, then since my T1* ( still being deciphered and most like will get my own coding) , my next closest markers states
2 from veneto (verona and averrano)
2 from tyrol ( val di non and badia)
1 from slovenia
2 from baden-baden
2 from wurtenburg
3 from ireland ( all southern ireland)
1 from netherlands ( groningen)
4 from england ( 1 cornish , rest in the midlands )
3 from the carolinas USA ( from after american war of independence)

While not deliving into the very ancient trai of HG T, I was wanting to know what mix of people where these Swabians and are they also called alennai
 
Thank you how yes no for your response.

So a lot of hits in the baltics. (Kratta, Wadel, Hagge)

Hag: fence is possibly germanic

Hafa: pot could be afro-asiatic. A relic of the first farmers.

Most male words (weapons, hunting, agriculture, weather) are germanic.
But female words (little children, cooking , baby and garden) are often different of german. Is this a coincidence or does it represent a relic of an older population.



I can give some more special swabian words:

Zinka: nose
Beig: heap of wood
Häs: clothes

schira: put wood on a fire
triala: when a hildren eats, some food don`t find the way to the mouth
motza: little children play with dirt and water

helinga: silent
welaweg: probable

All this words are totally different of german.


Well, not only in the Baltics..., anyway Hagga might be indeed a celtic word. The underlined words are url's

Zorna= zerren.. ein Zürssel =ein Geflochtenes? something torned/binded
Hafa=?? Hafen, Kaffeehaferl(bavarian) =coffeemug
Wadel=wedeln, a waver=tail
Kratta= krat(dutch) and crate(English)... =(Gemüse/Bier)Kiste(high german)
hagga=hog (English)...now pig, but originally animals old enough for slaughter... celtic origin? or Germanic origin ...ophokken(dutch) =confinement, hok(dutch) ...= ein Viehpferch(high German)
Beig= bergen, berg, barg... it simply means heap to stock wood
Häs=hes(dutch, introduced by germans), but maybe related to the dutch word "jas"
schira= schüren(highGerman)... to stoke
triala=trullern(low saxon)in de Büxen trullern= to wet your pants...
helinga=verhohlen...verhehlen =so hidden/secret/silent
motza= modderen(dutch)=to mud, aanmodderen(dutch)=to muddle along
wellaweag= welcherweg=anyway
 
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Very good explanaton Christiaan. The most Swaban words are indeed probably germanic.
I give you some more examples.
Perhaps you can give me an explanation.

grom - gift, someone takes it home after a journey
gretig - angry because of too few sleep
goscha - mouth
ranza - body
boscha - hair
guller - cock
nula - find a solution of a technical problem with try and error
grumsa - child cries and doesn`t do what the mother want
gi - to example: gi Stuttgart - to Stuttgart

Hope you can help me
 
Very good explanaton Christiaan. The most Swaban words are indeed probably germanic.
I give you some more examples.
Perhaps you can give me an explanation.

grom - gift, someone takes it home after a journey
gretig - angry because of too few sleep
goscha - mouth
ranza - body
boscha - hair
guller - cock
nula - find a solution of a technical problem with try and error
grumsa - child cries and doesn`t do what the mother want
gi - to example: gi Stuttgart - to Stuttgart

Hope you can help me

grom=? Kram(stuff), Krempel(stuff), ...marktkraam(dutch for a marketstall)
gretig= grantig(bavarian), is probably not related with the dutch word gretig(eager), but with gretten " mnd. gretten (< *gratjan) ‘irritieren’, ohd. grazzo ‘streng’, mhd. graz ‘Wut’; < pgm. *grati- (nur West-Germanisch), das vielleicht verwandt ist mit → graat < pgm. *grata- (mhd. graz was soviel heißt wie ‘Wut’ und ‘Zweig’)." if twig(Zweig) is mentioned it might also be related to the word Gräte( fish bone)
goscha=hebrew word?
Ranza= ? Ranzen(schoolbag) the schoolbag might have been compared to a belly?. It has something to do with the torso that is for sure...
boscha =Büschel Haar, een bos haar (a "bush" of hair)
guller= gillen(dutch for to yell) so a crower? or related to the word Gockel(cock)...gackern(german for to cackle)
nula= (rum)nudeln(to "noodle" around), (rum)wurschteln(to "sausage" around, so being busy/clumsy as if making sausages or noodles?
grumsa= grämen(being sad), grämig(bad mood), grumpy(english)....grummen/grommen(german/dutch for to growl)
gi= gen Horizont (in direction of the horizon), ginder(dutch for: there, at that place)
 
interesting work to try to find cognates: I shall stay on general ground:
before looking for far foreign languages to explain dialects it is necessary to try the neighborhood languages of same recent origin even if looking farther is not a big sin...
to go back to the origin of this thread, I think Swabian people are close relatives to Alsacians and also to Alemannic people of Switzerland: a mixture where dominates Celts and Germanics - for the diphtongaison of 'I' these dialects are close to flemish and northern (scandinavian) dialects - considering it , there are far from the bavarian dialects -
I suppose their strong 'high-german' affiliation is due to proximity with Bavaria, Tyrol and Switzerland and their centuries influences - I think also a conflictual celtic vs rhaetic non I-E influence could explain the second consonnantael mutation (southern) in german language , that runs farther in high alemannic (South Switzerland- ) and Austrian-S-bavarian dialects where along with D>T (written) and B>P (not written) we find K>KCH or CH ('kind' > 'ching') it is to say the complete mutation - the could be a link between all these languages where consonnants keep unvoiced or become unvoiced contrary to the neighborhooh regions (Toscan, Hungarian, South-Germanic) - the first mutation could be better linked to more precise finnic-habits?
it recall me a dialectal phenomenon in welsh where the Morgannwg dialect pronounce unvoiced the normally voiced untervocalic stops of the celtic language (voicing and leniting is a dominent trait among celtic languages): hazard: this welsh region is an ancient silurian one -
just to enjoy pushing on the cork
good night
 
Thank you Moesan for your response.

So the vast mayority of swabian words are really germanic.
Thank you.

But the celts must have left an impact here.

Do you think that the names of mountains and rivers and lakes are a better chace to find our celtic heritage?
 
Thank you Moesan for your response.

So the vast mayority of swabian words are really germanic.
Thank you.

But the celts must have left an impact here.

Do you think that the names of mountains and rivers and lakes are a better chace to find our celtic heritage?

Celtic presence in Central Europe was already on the decline before 1st century BC, and when the Romans expanded their borders to the Rhine and to the Danube, what little was left of Celtic presence was absorbed by the expanding Germanic tribes from the north. A lot of place names disappeared due to the Migration Period. But, that is not to say, however, that there is no Celtic legacy at all. Here's some examples:

- "Breg" and "Brigach" (the two source rivers of the Danube), from Celtic *brig- ("high", "powerful"). Related with this, of course, is the town name "Bregenz" in western Austria.
- the "Naab" river (compare with "Nabia", a Gallaecian river goddess, as well as the Navia river in northwestern Spain)
- "Tübingen" and "Tauber" (from Celtic *dubo-, "black")
- "Zarten" (in the Black Forest) - Tarodunon
- "Kempten" (in the Allgäu) - Cambodunon

Incidentally, your own screen name is Celtic-derived (via Proto-Germanic mediation): "Gaiso-riχs" ("spear king")
 

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