How did I2a-Din get to the Balkans?

How did I2a-Din get to the Balkans?


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i see that causal reasoning is not your stronger side.... so let me help you understand why this idea makes sense (which does not mean its necessarily correct)

1) most of west and south Slavs have genetics (R1a- M458 and I2a-din) that indicates that their ancestors were in Europe much much before E-V13, J2 people and R1b people....with east Slavs whose R1a is of same type as the one in Nordic countries and parts of Asia its more difficult to prove this.. but from what we know about genetics we can be sure that at least core of people from whom west and south Slavs origin were in Europe in ancient times.. in fact R1a-M458 is clearly unprecedentedly ancient old in Serbia, which is why I relate Pelasgians (= field/flatland/sea people) with Poles (Poljaci = field/flatland people - Slavic "polje" = field) - this is further confirmed by south Slavs being distinguished from surrounding peoples by I2a-din and not by R1a, and from what I looked into a year ago also by elevated R1a in the areas where Pelasgians remained in ancient Greece...I2a-Din shows clear spread along Danube from Bohemia to Black sea

2) Russian primary chronicle states that Danubian Slavs have moved from Danube area to Vistula area when Roman empire (Vlakhs) entered their lands and started molesting them... among those who moved it explicitly mentions Serbs and Croats

3) Roman empire spread to Danube before 0AD

4) Pliny records around 50-70 AD that in Vistula area live Scirii and Hirri, Sarmati and Venedi...he records no one else, just those 4 tribes... hence among them are Danubian Slavs, Serbs and Croats


5) around 500 AD Slavic people are recorded on large territory from Black sea shores north of Carpathians all the way to Bohemia and east Germany.... as the map shows, area of Vltava is in the middle of that spread indicating that area of Vltava might indeed have been core area of early Slavs


and some bonus homework for you:if for Roman writers later Slaveni are transcribed as Sclaveni
than Scirii/Scirians were in fact Sirians or Serians....
Hirri are easily same people as Heruli but recorded in different times

Serians are mentioned by Seneca as living along Danube in Europe and in various areas of Asia and also rulling over scattered Scythians....

Scordisci live around Danube..they disappear from history when Roman empire reaches them...
they disappear or they are just recorded under the same name under which Seneca records them around Danube and in east Europe and in Asia - Serians or in the way Roman historian would write it Scirian

now the link to the book given above shows that Scirii are alos find in Bavaria/Bohemia, which is area from which Serbs come to Balkan according to recorded history...

Heruli on other hand disappear from history maps on place where state of white Croats appear a bit later..

Your biggest fault you have is to continuosly assume that what is now was in the bronze and iron ages. your map should never have been placed on the forum because it does not represent pliny's times but the period around 500-600AD , that 500 years difference. ........understand 500 years.

the sarmatians at the time of pliny where eastern persian people, actually depends on which sarmatians.
Sarmatae is in origin probably just one of several tribal names of the Sarmatians which came to be applied to the entire group as an exonym in Greco-Roman ethnography. Strabo in the 1st century names as the main tribes of the Sarmatians the Iazyges, the Roxolani, the Aorsi and the Siraces.

the roxolani where near the black sea, iazyges, next to them, so the "vistula" sarmatians where the Aorsi (alans) or Siraces.
the alans where from ossetia and the Siraces from the caucasus mountains region Slavic_Culture_Spread.jpg

map is original slavs, who can base their true homeland around modern Kiev.

Danubian slavs? ....thats a dream, you need to say the thracian dacians or Getaes.

I already noted that russian geneologists have ruled out one marker of the I2a-Din which is in the balkans but not in the ukraine. and there marker of I2a-Din emerged in ukraine only in the year 250AD. Clearly a date when the scirii who had already migrated from eastern germany to the danube basin fought with the celts against the sarmatians ( roxolani )


the origins of the south slavs are as follows from their own scholars
Slovenians = always lived in the area a mix of illyric, celtic and venetic people
serbians = thracians
croatians = persians
bosnians = dardanians who migrated from anatolia
Bulgarians = turkic people

These tribes in the balkans learned slavic by firstly the turkic bulgars who learned it and then by severians from eastern ukraine who moved as far south as thessally in 600AD.
the only "true" slavs who came from the map included where the Poles who originated in eastern Kiev.
this theory that I2a-din came from slavs is truly false. Because I believe by facts and logic that it originated in central europe more than 700 years before the slavs entered europe ( as in eastern poland to moldovia )

EDIT - you need to get your hands on this book, which updates every 20 years and basically notes all ancient historians and concludes what they where trying to say

Researches Into the Physical History of Mankind: Ethnography of Europe. 3d ...
By James Cowles Prichard
 
Your biggest fault you have is to continuosly assume that what is now was in the bronze and iron ages. your map should never have been placed on the forum because it does not represent pliny's times but the period around 500-600AD , that 500 years difference. ........understand 500 years.
to be able to understand my point...
you need to know geography and relevance of natural obstacles in wars in those times...

there are people living around Danube, when pushed north they can only settle behind next natural obstacle - to area north of Carpathians, to Vltava area... (1)

which is exactly what Russian primary chronicle claims...(2)

Slavs in 500 AD didnot become so populous over night...it takes many many generations for tribes to get to large numbers....hence they were in years before in area between their west most (east Germany and Bohemia) and east most (Black sea) spread... mid of that area is Vltava which fits well with (1) and (2)


your argument about 500 years may hold for small nations like your Albanians... but around 500AD we have numerous Slavic people settled in enormously large area between Black sea and east Germany.... that doesnot happen over night... and for big part of them their genetics shows European ancestry for thousands of years... they didnot suddenly come to area from Black sea to east Germany from anywhere, they were clearly somewhere there for hundreds of years before... and Vltava is in center of that area... so why would not we believe in Russian primary chronicle stating that Danubian Slavs have moved from Danube to Vltava when pressed by spreading Roman empire

the origins of the south slavs are as follows from their own scholars
Slovenians = always lived in the area a mix of illyric, celtic and venetic people
serbians = thracians
croatians = persians
bosnians = dardanians who migrated from anatolia
i think you read lot of quasi-history...
no real historians claim this...
 
to be able to understand my point...
you need to know geography and relevance of natural obstacles in wars in those times...

there are people living around Danube, when pushed north they can only settle behind next natural obstacle - to area north of Carpathians, to Vltava area... (1)

which is exactly what Russian primary chronicle claims...(2)

Slavs in 500 AD didnot become so populous over night...it takes many many generations for tribes to get to large numbers....hence they were in years before in area between their west most (east Germany and Bohemia) and east most (Black sea) spread... mid of that area is Vltava which fits well with (1) and (2)


your argument about 500 years may hold for small nations like your Albanians... but around 500AD we have numerous Slavic people settled in enormously large area between Black sea and east Germany.... that doesnot happen over night... and for big part of them their genetics shows European ancestry for thousands of years... they didnot suddenly come to area from Black sea to east Germany from anywhere, they were clearly there for hundreds of years before... and Vltava is in center of that area... so why would not we believe in Russian primary chronicle stating that Danubian Slavs have moved from Danube to Vltava when pressed by spreading Roman empire


i think you read lot of quasi-history...
no real historians claim this...

the thread is about I2a-din entering the balkans, this is as per KN 2550 years old which equals around 500BC , there was no slavs in the balkans 500BC so why do you carry on about this slavic issue.........just start another thread for what you want to discuss
 
the thread is about I2a-din entering the balkans, this is as per KN 2550 years old which equals around 500BC , there was no slavs in the balkans 500BC so why do you carry on about this slavic issue.........just start another thread for what you want to discuss

??? do you read what you write?

do you understand that a group of people living in some area and having most recent common ancestor estimated to have lived 2500 years ago doesnot imply that the common ancestor also lived in that area?

how difficult is that to understand?
 
i see that causal reasoning is not your stronger side.... so let me help you understand why this idea makes sense (which does not mean its necessarily correct).

how yes no, I'm giving you the same advice that I have given to a number of other people: stop spreading your own agenda-driven revisionist fantasies here on Eupedia.

I don't want to go into detail, but: the idea that the original homeland of the Slavs was in modern-day Czech Republic is something complete bare of any evidence, especially because we have multiple historic sources that tell us consistently that the situation was very different: Strabo's Geography (book 7, chapter 1.3 and 1.5 - and also chapter 2.2) and Ptolemy's Geography (book 2, chapter 10), as well as Tacitus' Germania (chapter 28 and chapter 43). By the time the Romans reached the Danube, the Germanic Marcomanni occupied Bohemia. These, in turn, had conquered it in the 1st century BC from the Celtic Boii. Knowing from your past activities on this forum, you will probably argue that the Boii were actually Slavic, but at that point I would like to remind you that the Boii were one of the Celtic tribes that invaded northern Italy, occupying the city that was known to the Romans as "Bononia" (modern Bologna). For reference, check out Livy, "Ab Urbe Condita" - book 5, chapter 34 and 35. There's no evidence of the Slavs in Central Europe before the Migration Period, and there's certainly no evidence of Slavic presence in Italy in Antiquity!

Trying to link the Slavs with the Sea Peoples or the "Pelasgians" (whoever these were) and attempting to draw a line of continuity into the Paleolithic is something where we're firmly in the realm of fantasy. Likewise, your attempts to link vaguely similar-sounding names (without any sort of regularity) with each other, and linking them with Y-Haplogroups has also no basis of any kind in facts.

Another aspect that I would like to bring up are the Sardinians. Sardinians are mostly G2a (a Neolithic Haplogroup), and I2a1a (I2a-M26). This is a different subclade from the one found on the Balkans and in eastern Europe (I2a1b), and the common ancestor of these two Haplogroups was some time in Neolithic or even Mesolithic times. Additionally, I2a-M26 is nowhere found on the Balkans, but instead has ties with western Europe (in particular the Basque country and Catalonia). In any case, there is no link between Sardinia and the Balkans / Eastern Europe. It's possible that the ancient Sardinians were one of the Sea Peoples (the ones called "Sherden" or "Sherdana" in the Egyptian sources), but this too is disputed.

Getting back on the original topic of the thread and the poll:

My opinion is that both the Paleolithic and the Slavic option apply: I2a-din is a surviving Paleo/Mesolithic Haplogroup that happened to survive through the Neolithic and Bronze Age, and in my opinion most probably got dispersed as the result of a founder effect during the Slavic migrations.
 
My opinion is that both the Paleolithic and the Slavic option apply: I2a-din is a surviving Paleo/Mesolithic Haplogroup that happened to survive through the Neolithic and Bronze Age, and in my opinion most probably got dispersed as the result of a founder effect during the Slavic migrations.

Do you think I2a-Din is a surviving Paleo/Mesolithic Haplogroup from the Balkans in particular, though? Or just Paleo/Mesolithic in Europe as a whole? Because if it's just Paleo/Mesolithic in Europe outside of the Balkans, then the answer to "How did I2a-Din get to the Balkans?" seems to be "The Slavs," rather than a combination of two answers, don't you think?
 
Do you think I2a-Din is a surviving Paleo/Mesolithic Haplogroup from the Balkans in particular, though? Or just Paleo/Mesolithic in Europe as a whole? Because if it's just Paleo/Mesolithic in Europe outside of the Balkans, then the answer to "How did I2a-Din get to the Balkans?" seems to be "The Slavs," rather than a combination of two answers, don't you think?

I was more thinking along the lines of the latter, that is Paleo- or Mesolithic in the European context. And yes, you're right, in that context "The Slavs" alone is probably more appropriate.
 
I think not much G2a, instead they had some pre-Illyrian R1a from Pelasgians....

research shows that R1a is ancient old in the area.... we can assume that several waves of R1a did contribute to observed extreme diversity, but still the diversity much larger than elsewhere is likely to point out on ancient old settlement of R1a in Balkans... I think this is related to Pelasgians... that conclusion I had already introduced around 1 year ago on this forum, after comparing spread of R1a in Greece with data about Pelasgian settlements....

Which studies shows that high divesrsity in Balkans for R1a? As I know only in the study of M. Pericic from 2005 we have some R1a DYS392=13 in that region. Can you show another study which shows the same? The resto of R1a are typically Slavic.

south Slavs have single common denominator - I2a-din.... R1a is in Albanians of FYRM significantly higher than in areas like Montenegro, and on roughly same level as in Serbia and FYRM Macedonians
again R1a in Greek Macedonia is much larger.....
only conclusion is that much of R1a was already on Balkan when south Slavic people arrived, while most of I2a-Din was not already there...

Greece was attacked by Avars together with some Slavic tribes. That's the reason why we have higher level of R1a in Macedonia (Greece). After that, Bulgarians took control under some parts of Albania and Greece.


i think R1a was spread with Kurgan culture....
although it is ogood theory, I am not sure that PIE language was in fact spread by Kurgan culture...

It is opposite from the results which we know. Take a look on the R1a tree and you'll be able to understand everything.


I2a in Asia had tribal names such as Sherdana, Sarbans, Sart, Scordisci, Kurds ....

Where we can see that data?
 
KN noted that this marker I2a DIN-N was 2550 years and in the pripet marshes of Ukraine, trouble is that the russian genealogitis on this same maker find nothing older in the russian samples than 1830 years old and also they have no DYS19=14 croatian marker which is in croatia.

Why Russians have to have that DYS19=14?

As the first, it is only 600 y.o.
As the 2nd, it doesn't exist even in the nearest regions to Dalmatia.
As the 3rd, it is another one fact that I2a in Balkans aren't a result of a Paleolithic continuity.
 
I was more thinking along the lines of the latter, that is Paleo- or Mesolithic in the European context. And yes, you're right, in that context "The Slavs" alone is probably more appropriate.

I initially thought it wa spurely the illyrians, but further look at the scenarion, it was celtic/illyric migration from central europe( danube). the celts did get as far as greece and the scordisci where gaulish celts, mix this with "northern" illyrians and we get the timeframe that KN states.
Also the celtic movements along the danube to the black sea would have seen a celtic settlement there, hence moravian area. This danube delta area, let to the roman movement of thracian ( dacian and getae) from norht of the danube to moesia and beyond in the year beginning in 100AD

I wave the slavic idea due to its lateness of time, russian studies and the "missing" knowledge of what HG the illyrians had in the iron age.
 
I initially thought it wa spurely the illyrians, but further look at the scenarion, it was celtic/illyric migration from central europe( danube). the celts did get as far as greece and the scordisci where gaulish celts, mix this with "northern" illyrians and we get the timeframe that KN states.
Also the celtic movements along the danube to the black sea would have seen a celtic settlement there, hence moravian area. This danube delta area, let to the roman movement of thracian ( dacian and getae) from norht of the danube to moesia and beyond in the year beginning in 100AD

I wave the slavic idea due to its lateness of time, russian studies and the "missing" knowledge of what HG the illyrians had in the iron age.

I notice the pattern you're suggesting for I2a-Din to in fact be a likely scenario for the initial spread of I2c-B. It reaches into the Balkans and apparently expanded into Asia and within the later Republic of Venice, giving it a very Eastern spread for a "Celtic" marker. But there are a few things different about I2a-Din in comparison to I2c-B. For one, I2a-Din is totally lacking in Western Europe, whereas we have a few older I2c-B outliers in Western Europe, indicative of it being spread those places by Celtic peoples. Also, I2a-Din reaches peak frequency west of its peak diversity, indicating a westward spread... but it's the opposite for I2c-B, and for the Celts. Finally, I2a-Din-S's expansion is apparently younger than the eastward spread of the Celts, whereas it fits OK with I2c-B.
 
I notice the pattern you're suggesting for I2a-Din to in fact be a likely scenario for the initial spread of I2c-B. It reaches into the Balkans and apparently expanded into Asia and within the later Republic of Venice, giving it a very Eastern spread for a "Celtic" marker. But there are a few things different about I2a-Din in comparison to I2c-B. For one, I2a-Din is totally lacking in Western Europe, whereas we have a few older I2c-B outliers in Western Europe, indicative of it being spread those places by Celtic peoples. Also, I2a-Din reaches peak frequency west of its peak diversity, indicating a westward spread... but it's the opposite for I2c-B, and for the Celts. Finally, I2a-Din-S's expansion is apparently younger than the eastward spread of the Celts, whereas it fits OK with I2c-B.

are you referring to this below

I2c - L596, L597 is a relatively recent discovery for those previously labelled I2*. The group within it labelledB (A) in Family Tree DNA I2* Haplogroup Project results is particularly interesting for its distribution around the Black Sea, including Armenia. It seems likely that the I2* in Armenians reported in a recent paper13 is actually I2c. Several Indo-European languages seem to have arisen on the western shores of the Black Sea, but eventually spread into Anatolia. Armenian made a further move from central Anatolia to Armenia. (See Near Eastern Neolithic: Languages and Y-DNA.)

OR
L473 ?
 
Why Russians have to have that DYS19=14?

As the first, it is only 600 y.o.
where is your data for this, thats its only 600 y.o
 
I notice the pattern you're suggesting for I2a-Din to in fact be a likely scenario for the initial spread of I2c-B. It reaches into the Balkans and apparently expanded into Asia and within the later Republic of Venice, giving it a very Eastern spread for a "Celtic" marker. But there are a few things different about I2a-Din in comparison to I2c-B. For one, I2a-Din is totally lacking in Western Europe, whereas we have a few older I2c-B outliers in Western Europe, indicative of it being spread those places by Celtic peoples. Also, I2a-Din reaches peak frequency west of its peak diversity, indicating a westward spread... but it's the opposite for I2c-B, and for the Celts. Finally, I2a-Din-S's expansion is apparently younger than the eastward spread of the Celts, whereas it fits OK with I2c-B.

the only reason it expanded within the republic of venice was due to the fact that venice had an armenian quarter from the 14th century as well as greek, dalmatian, german, croat sections.

lets not come to the conclusions that the celts had only one HG
 
where is your data for this, thats its only 600 y.o

Check KN writings on Bresnan.net site
Moreover, that Dalmatian DYS19=14 was brought to Dalmatia from Bosnia.

BTW, do you really think that some I2a-Din DYS19=14 is elder than DYS19=16, for example?
 
the only reason it expanded within the republic of venice was due to the fact that venice had an armenian quarter from the 14th century as well as greek, dalmatian, german, croat sections.

I suppose it's possible that you're right here, considering that there is some overlap between the "Venetian" type and the "Armenian" type of I2c-B, but I suspect not at the moment, since both are younger than the early "Celtic" branches, and my theory suggests that there ought to be overlap, anyway.

lets not come to the conclusions that the celts had only one HG

I don't think that they only had one haplogroup, I just think that while I2c-B may fit the pattern you're describing, I2a-Din apparently doesn't. FWIW, I also think the Celts had I2a2b and others.
 
the only reason it expanded within the republic of venice was due to the fact that venice had an armenian quarter from the 14th century as well as greek, dalmatian, german, croat sections.

lets not come to the conclusions that the celts had only one HG

I agree, but only partially : sure, Celts carried more than an HG but Y-I no more than Y-G2 ever was an important part of their demography and movements - their basis was and stays western Y-R1b I believe- so even if they carried some Y-I2a1b (as some Y-I2a2) it cannot explain the high levels of this HG in North Balkans -
 
Which studies shows that high divesrsity in Balkans for R1a? As I know only in the study of M. Pericic from 2005 we have some R1a DYS392=13 in that region. Can you show another study which shows the same? The resto of R1a are typically Slavic.

High levels of Paleolithic Y-chromosome lineages characterize Serbia
Maria Regueiro, Luis Rivera, Tatjana Damnjanovic, Ljiljana Lukovic, Jelena Milasin, Rene J. Herrera


paper estimates that R1a-M458 is in Serbia 14kya old, while in other Slavic areas (R1a-M458 is Slavic only marker and rare outside of europe) it is 11kya...this means R1a-M458 must have spread to Poland from Balkan... this could have been in times of Pelasgians or perhaps before...

R1a1a*(xM458) is oldest in Indo-Aryan and Dravidian speakers in India and is there 14kya old, while in Serbia it is 11kya....

we do not know what was the language of R1a-M458 people (dominant marker in Poles) but we can only assume that they are in Europe last 14kya, and originally on Balkan....

Pelasgi(ans) are good guess due to same key word used for tribal name
polje = field => Poljaci
Pelagos = field, flatland, sea (probably loan word from Pelasgian language to Greek) => Pelazgi

Julius Pokorny derives Pelasgoi from *pelag-skoi (Flachlandbewohner, or "flatland-inhabitants"); specifically, Bewohner der thessalischen Ebene ("Inhabitants of the Thessalian plain").[9] He details a previous derivation, which appears in English at least as early as William Gladstone's Studies on Homer and the Homeric Age.[10] If the Pelasgians were not Indo-Europeans, the name in this derivation must have been assigned by the Hellenes.
The ancient Greek word for "sea", pelagos, comes from the same root, *plāk-, as the Doric word plagos, "side" (which is flat), appearing in *pelag-skoi. Ernest Klein therefore simply interprets the same reconstructed form as "the sea men", where the sea is the flat.[
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelasgians

those are pretty strong indications that west Slavs origin from ancient Balkan people very likely from Pelasgians.....I do not make any claim about languages as languages can change fast as we know on case of latin spoken originally only in rome and its derivatives spread fast to big chunk of Europe and to latin America, and from celtic languages disappearing from vast area in short time... looking history through language only is unreliable... it works only for quite recent and already known history...

i will add that only extremely biased people with strong anti-slavic agenda can apriori discard all these thoughts above as rubish and threaten with ban to people who dare to think about it...
i thought in 21 century in europe I will not need to fight for freedom to say what i think.....

Greece was attacked by Avars together with some Slavic tribes. That's the reason why we have higher level of R1a in Macedonia (Greece). After that, Bulgarians took control under some parts of Albania and Greece.
there are still avars in caucasus... not sure anymore, but as far as I remember they were J2...



It is opposite from the results which we know. Take a look on the R1a tree and you'll be able to understand everything.
what is opposite? that R1a were associated with Kurgan? that r1a was associated with PIE? that PIE was spread by Kurgan culture?



Where we can see that data?
in my posts :)

data comes from someone's effort, alike to what Maciamo do on this site, to collect published data for Asia and make maps of haplogroups...
https://sites.google.com/site/thelineagesofasia/

I have paid attention to map for haplogroup I (my guess is that it is mostly I2a2 as in Asia it is usually I2a2) and determined that it has hotspots that exactly match spread of Pasthun Sarbans, and also spread in Serica north of Tibet, and hotspot in Kyrgizstan/Uzbekistan where Sart people live...e.g. around this place http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margelan which is place where white Sart people live and place that has ancient tradition of silk production indicating origin from Serica...

regarding Kurds, their tribal name I relate to Sherdana, because after studying description of conquest of sea people it was clear that they were northerners, that majority of army was going via land, and that it was settlement wave with woman and children, that judging by order of conquest preserved in historic record, they did make cut from Black sea to south of Asia minor and than to Syria...

all this suggests key settlement exactly in Kurdish area which is strategic bridge between Black sea and Syria....

furthermore Kurds have significant European genetics (R1a+I2a) of rather recent origin.... Kurds have tribal name alike to Sherdana...
note that Sherdana give name Serbonian bog in Egypt...

so idea is that I2a people carried with themselves tribal name recorded in variants Sherd/Sard/Serd/Serb/Kurd/Scord/Sart/Ser... depending on transcriptions of writers and ending due to being classified in this or that culture,,,
I do not know what language those tribes spoke... but I do notice that pattern of haplogroup I in Asia does match supposed spread of PIE people from homeland that in fact matches Kurdish areas....

regardless of language,

I go step further and suggest that Sherdana are no other than early wave of Scordisci along Danube to Black sea... . Scordisci give name Scardus mountain (Shar Dag in turkish) in south Serbia....reason I suggest this is that Scordisci have for long time dwelled along Danube.....and that it is evident that, apart from Hercegovina, which is initial settlement of Serbs and Croats, I2a-Din reaches maximum in areas along Danube with some of the hotspots in end of that area in Ukraine...and on start of the area in Bohemia...I2a-Din was in my opinion related to Danube from ancient times...there we again have issue with Seneca relating Serians to Danube...as people who dare to cross frozen Danube on bare foot...Serians are same as Serres who live in Serica which is Asia north of Tibet (which is where Sart and white(west) Sart people now live) and in arc from there to India (this arc is clearly visible in haplogroup I map from site above and it matches arc shaped spread of Pastun Sarbans with arc making knee on exactly same place in Sarbans and haplogroup I....

Serians is same tribal name as Scirians (Sciri) so it is a question whether those were again same people...if they were it is a clue that Scirii-Heruli might have been forefathers of Serbs and Croats.... again, I will not speculate about what could have been their original language in that case...I would note only that Scirii are by some authors claimed to be Alans/Sarmatians
 
paper estimates that R1a-M458 is in Serbia 14kya old, while in other Slavic areas (R1a-M458 is Slavic only marker and rare outside of europe) it is 11kya...this means R1a-M458 must have spread to Poland from Balkan... this could have been in times of Pelasgians or perhaps before...

so, we established that marker R1a-M458 is a thracian marker, thanks for info!

those are pretty strong indications that west Slavs origin from ancient Balkan people very likely from Pelasgians.....I do not make any claim about languages as languages can change fast as we know on case of latin spoken originally only in rome and its derivatives spread fast to big chunk of Europe and to latin America, and from celtic languages disappearing from vast area in short time... looking history through language only is unreliable... it works only for quite recent and already known history...

I seen many greek maps where they noted the thracians lived up to the baltic sea, but I cannot read greek.

i will add that only extremely biased people with strong anti-slavic agenda can apriori discard all these thoughts above as rubish and threaten with ban to people who dare to think about it...
i thought in 21 century in europe I will not need to fight for freedom to say what i think.....

you are wrong, there is no anti-slavic , there is only pro-slavic people here who assume that since you speak a slavic language now, and living in a area, then that area was always slavic and the previous owners of this area did not exist.
We might as well say we originated from England because we speak english

furthermore Kurds have significant European genetics (R1a+I2a) of rather recent origin.... Kurds have tribal name alike to Sherdana...
note that Sherdana give name Serbonian bog in Egypt...

could be only roman remaining outposts as the Romans fought the pathians there for a very long time.
similar to I- illyric markers in Britain.


I go step further and suggest that Sherdana are no other than early wave of Scordisci along Danube to Black sea... . Scordisci give name Scardus mountain (Shar Dag in turkish) in south Serbia....reason I suggest this is that Scordisci have for long time dwelled along Danube.....and that it is evident that, apart from Hercegovina, which is initial settlement of Serbs and Croats, I2a-Din reaches maximum in areas along Danube with some of the hotspots in end of that area in Ukraine...and on start of the area in Bohemia...I2a-Din was in my opinion related to Danube from ancient times...there we again have issue with Seneca relating Serians to Danube...as people who dare to cross frozen Danube on bare foot...Serians are same as Serres who live in Serica which is Asia north of Tibet (which is where Sart and white(west) Sart people now live) and in arc from there to India (this arc is clearly visible in haplogroup I map from site above and it matches arc shaped spread of Pastun Sarbans with arc making knee on exactly same place in Sarbans and haplogroup I....

Scordisci = gaulish celt people who took with them the remaining boii, tectosages and taurisci people.
Strabo says this mix of people where known as galatae

Serians is same tribal name as Scirians (Sciri) so it is a question whether those were again same people...if they were it is a clue that Scirii-Heruli might have been forefathers of Serbs and Croats.... again, I will not speculate about what could have been their original language in that case...I would note only that Scirii are by some authors claimed to be Alans/Sarmatians

there is a serdi tribe SE of triballi thracian people
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Tracian_state.png
 
we do not know what was the language of R1a-M458 people (dominant marker in Poles) but we can only assume that they are in Europe last 14kya, and originally on Balkan....

Pelasgi(ans) are good guess due to same key word used for tribal name
polje = field => Poljaci
Pelagos = field, flatland, sea (probably loan word from Pelasgian language to Greek) => Pelazgi

those are pretty strong indications that west Slavs origin from ancient Balkan people very likely from Pelasgians.....I do not make any claim about languages as languages can change fast as we know on case of latin spoken originally only in rome and its derivatives spread fast to big chunk of Europe and to latin America, and from celtic languages disappearing from vast area in short time... looking history through language only is unreliable... it works only for quite recent and already known history...
i will add that only extremely biased people with strong anti-slavic agenda can apriori discard all these thoughts above as rubish and threaten with ban to people who dare to think about it...
i thought in 21 century in europe I will not need to fight for freedom to say what i think.....

there are still avars in caucasus... not sure anymore, but as far as I remember they were J2...
what is opposite? that R1a were associated with Kurgan? that r1a was associated with PIE? that PIE was spread by Kurgan culture?
in my posts :)
data comes from someone's effort, alike to what Maciamo do on this site, to collect published data for Asia and make maps of haplogroups...
https://sites.google.com/site/thelineagesofasia/
I have paid attention to map for haplogroup I (my guess is that it is mostly I2a2 as in Asia it is usually I2a2) and determined that it has hotspots that exactly match spread of Pasthun Sarbans, and also spread in Serica north of Tibet, and hotspot in Kyrgizstan/Uzbekistan where Sart people live...e.g. around this place http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margelan which is place where white Sart people live and place that has ancient tradition of silk production indicating origin from Serica...
regarding Kurds, their tribal name I relate to Sherdana, because after studying description of conquest of sea people it was clear that they were northerners, that majority of army was going via land, and that it was settlement wave with woman and children, that judging by order of conquest preserved in historic record, they did make cut from Black sea to south of Asia minor and than to Syria...

all this suggests key settlement exactly in Kurdish area which is strategic bridge between Black sea and Syria....

furthermore Kurds have significant European genetics (R1a+I2a) of rather recent origin.... Kurds have tribal name alike to Sherdana...
note that Sherdana give name Serbonian bog in Egypt...

so idea is that I2a people carried with themselves tribal name recorded in variants Sherd/Sard/Serd/Serb/Kurd/Scord/Sart/Ser... depending on transcriptions of writers and ending due to being classified in this or that culture,,,
I do not know what language those tribes spoke... but I do notice that pattern of haplogroup I in Asia does match supposed spread of PIE people from homeland that in fact matches Kurdish areas....

regardless of language,

I go step further and suggest that Sherdana are no other than early wave of Scordisci along Danube to Black sea... . Scordisci give name Scardus mountain (Shar Dag in turkish) in south Serbia....reason I suggest this is that Scordisci have for long time dwelled along Danube.....and that it is evident that, apart from Hercegovina, which is initial settlement of Serbs and Croats, I2a-Din reaches maximum in areas along Danube with some of the hotspots in end of that area in Ukraine...and on start of the area in Bohemia...I2a-Din was in my opinion related to Danube from ancient times...there we again have issue with Seneca relating Serians to Danube...as people who dare to cross frozen Danube on bare foot...Serians are same as Serres who live in Serica which is Asia north of Tibet (which is where Sart and white(west) Sart people now live) and in arc from there to India (this arc is clearly visible in haplogroup I map from site above and it matches arc shaped spread of Pastun Sarbans with arc making knee on exactly same place in Sarbans and haplogroup I....

Serians is same tribal name as Scirians (Sciri) so it is a question whether those were again same people...if they were it is a clue that Scirii-Heruli might have been forefathers of Serbs and Croats.... again, I will not speculate about what could have been their original language in that case...I would note only that Scirii are by some authors claimed to be Alans/Sarmatians

You speak about Anti slavic propaganda, and you push Panslavism,

you even make pelasgians as IE and more specific Slavic,

you make Poland a Pelasgian nation,
you read Duridanov which connects mostly a part of Thracian with Slavic and as blind you did not search his work and in other languages, something which I am forced to do in the next days showing what Duridanov did not write

well pelasgians

compare Thyrrenians with island of Therra (cycladetic)
compare Pelasgians with Palestinians with Philistines with Faliski
search the lemnian stele
and if you want more Hattika Eretreia orchomenos relative cities of Pelasgian as we known by ancient Greek authors (Athens was Speaking Thyrrenian according Thoukidides if I remember correct.
Just also compare Ερετρεια Εret with Raetia


you speak of Anti-Slavic while you push Pan-Slavism

well the answer is no,

Slavic language has nothing to do with Thracian and Pelasgian
it is imported to Balkans by Great Moravia (Serbs) and low ucraine (Severi-Bulgars)

the case that Thracian and Slavic are IE does not mean that they were the same language,
in Fact I believe that Thracian was Centum, and I am waiting Taranis to search it by a good vocabulary
simply the existance of Thracian IE next to Scythian IE makes these 2 language to be near,
but soon I will write about that, proving that Thracian language was not Slavic,

now it is another case the people and another the language
Greeks once reached Indians,
Greek language once was spoken in such areas
what that mean?
that all Indians are Greeks?
cause the same is what you do, Poles as Pelasgians !!!!!
well global warming is raising sea lvl, if krakowy becomes a sea harbor in future then I might agree,

as for AVARS search better who were the Hrpt tribe
before you speak about Sherdana scirii serrians etc
if AVARS were J2 Hg then Hungary will be full of J2

now if R1a or J2 in Greece was from Avars then it will not be present in South Italy, in Grico people,


I believe that in 21 century Europe ignorance is not a crime, thinking even wrong is not a crime, but i wonder what is the limit, the boarder of the 2 above with payed focusing agendas.
 

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