How did I2a-Din get to the Balkans?
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The most interesting for me is not origin of the haplogroup I2a in Balkans per se, but the cause of presence its young branch which has TMRCA estimated as about 2500 years ago. One man has so much descendants in straight male lineage. Young clade of haplogroup I2 occurs in quite large amounts (about 20% of population) in some parts of Ukraine and Belarus. Why?
LeBrok
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I find it amazing too. Haplogroups rise and fall and some spread like a wildfire even without population replacement. Like a virus.
Well, give it couple of thousand of years.Welcome to Eupedia lyakh.
Thanks. Expansion of "I2-Din" is amazing. One man who lived about 2500 years ago has many millions of descendants in straight line in Europe, number of them may be above 10 000 000 (contains eight digits). Frequencies of YDNA I2*I2a according to http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml in some countries:
- Bosnia-Herzegovina: 55,5%
- Croatia: 37%
- Serbia: 33%
- Montenegro: 29,5%
- Romania: 26%
- Macedonia: 23%
- Moldova: 21%
- Slovenia: 20,5%
- Ukraine: 20,5% (about 4,5 millions men!)
- Bulgaria: 20%
- Belarus: 17,5% (about 800 000 - 900 000 men)
- Hungary: 16%
- Slovakia: 16%
- Albania: 12%
- Russia: 10,5% (about 7 millions men!)
- Greece: 9,5%
- Czech Republic: 9%
- Austria: 7%
- Lithuania: 6%
- Poland: 5,5%
- Kosovo: 2,5%
- Germany: 1,5%
Maybe in just three East Slavic countries together the number of "I2-Din" bearers exceeds ten millions!
- Bosnia-Herzegovina: 55,5%
- Croatia: 37%
- Serbia: 33%
- Montenegro: 29,5%
- Romania: 26%
- Macedonia: 23%
- Moldova: 21%
- Slovenia: 20,5%
- Ukraine: 20,5% (about 4,5 millions men!)
- Bulgaria: 20%
- Belarus: 17,5% (about 800 000 - 900 000 men)
- Hungary: 16%
- Slovakia: 16%
- Albania: 12%
- Russia: 10,5% (about 7 millions men!)
- Greece: 9,5%
- Czech Republic: 9%
- Austria: 7%
- Lithuania: 6%
- Poland: 5,5%
- Kosovo: 2,5%
- Germany: 1,5%
Maybe in just three East Slavic countries together the number of "I2-Din" bearers exceeds ten millions!
2500 years, thats approx 100 generations so in order for these descendants to propagate they would've needed to be forced out of their territory every once in couple of generations(most likely invasions). Curious that it resembles the Dacian tribes population movement.
Couple of centuries of prosperous development(5-600 BC to 100 AD), at its peak extending in north into present-day Poland borders, in the south to the Roman borders pushing the romans hands(constantly ravaging their provinces south of Danube) and causing retaliation which led the romans to the discovery of the huge stacks of gold in the Carpathians mountains, making the SW region of Dacia a Roman province. This forced some of the Dacian population to flee in the North and East into todays Poland, Ukraine, Belarus and Russia where they were absorbed.
Then in the following centuries massive invasions from huns, goths, etc continued to attack the remaining Dacians from the East and North, meaning that again some of them were forced to flee but this time into west present-day Croatia, Bosnia, Albania, etc where they were absorbed by the local populations. The rest of surviving Dacians that used the mountains as a natural refugee from the invaders, were later assimilated with the Slavs people which continued to migrate in the south into todays Bulgaria, Macedonia, etc.
That one I2a-din ancestor could've been Dacian at origin, be lucky to live in the right time frame with a head-start of 7 centuries of prosperity to expand in a Dacian tribe until they started to crumble into pieces but its descendants were continually forced to migrate to north, east then west and south. Like the rest of the theories on this thread, no way to prove it but its sounds more valid to me than either Slavs or Goths origins that are based on external migratory routes which chronologically arrived to those areas much later.
Thoughts ?
Couple of centuries of prosperous development(5-600 BC to 100 AD), at its peak extending in north into present-day Poland borders, in the south to the Roman borders pushing the romans hands(constantly ravaging their provinces south of Danube) and causing retaliation which led the romans to the discovery of the huge stacks of gold in the Carpathians mountains, making the SW region of Dacia a Roman province. This forced some of the Dacian population to flee in the North and East into todays Poland, Ukraine, Belarus and Russia where they were absorbed.
Then in the following centuries massive invasions from huns, goths, etc continued to attack the remaining Dacians from the East and North, meaning that again some of them were forced to flee but this time into west present-day Croatia, Bosnia, Albania, etc where they were absorbed by the local populations. The rest of surviving Dacians that used the mountains as a natural refugee from the invaders, were later assimilated with the Slavs people which continued to migrate in the south into todays Bulgaria, Macedonia, etc.
That one I2a-din ancestor could've been Dacian at origin, be lucky to live in the right time frame with a head-start of 7 centuries of prosperity to expand in a Dacian tribe until they started to crumble into pieces but its descendants were continually forced to migrate to north, east then west and south. Like the rest of the theories on this thread, no way to prove it but its sounds more valid to me than either Slavs or Goths origins that are based on external migratory routes which chronologically arrived to those areas much later.
Thoughts ?
But why there is so much I2-Din in Belarus and Russia? Theory about Slavic origin of I2-Din (which is only about 2500 years old, but is really popular in many European countries) looks more probable than the theory about Goths.
It is more probable that R1a is the most characteristic haplogroup of Slavs, not I2-Din, which may have non-Slavic origin (such as Dacian, as mentioned in the post above).
It is more probable that R1a is the most characteristic haplogroup of Slavs, not I2-Din, which may have non-Slavic origin (such as Dacian, as mentioned in the post above).
I joined just to tell you simple truth.2200 years was looking stupid before years when Ken Nor... was feeding via roots web and now looks totally DUMB! There is no mathematics to explain his desire and mania and much less genetics.His brosnan account with his *calculations" he wipe out totally from the net,but you guys still talk about his pathology.If someone think that 1 person for 5-600 years can create population which can wipe out whole Balkan area ...than you can believe anything but not something with a common sense.Many mutations are random.One is 37.If 37 can happen to Japanese and European non related populations can happen to any one related or not in Europeans.For such a spread which is obvious you need longer time and noticeable cultural impact like cultures of linear ceramic and Cucuteni Tripolie cultures.
Ralphie Boy
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If the poll was open, I'd vote for the Slavs. I believe that they brought I2 to the Balkans, though I try to leave the door open to other theories (as we learn more). One reason I vote for the Slavs bringing I2 to the Balkans is that it's in low numbers in Italy and Sicily, a place settled by Greeks. I believe that if indeed Greeks contributed haplogroups E and J2 to Italy, and I2 was in the Balkans in pre-Slavic times, we'd see more I2 in Italy. Another reason is that I2 is low in places like Crete and Cyprus.
Ralphie Boy
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"It shows open for me."
Thanks. I just voted for Slavs in the poll.
Thanks. I just voted for Slavs in the poll.
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IronSide
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The Slavs because :-
Procopius wrote in 545 that "the Sclaveni and the Antae actually had a single name in the remote past; for they were both called Sporoi in olden times." He described them as barbarians, who lived under democracy, and that they believe in one god, "the maker of lightning" (Perun), to whom they made sacrifice. They lived in scattered housing, and constantly changed settlement. Regarding warfare, they were mainly foot soldiers with small shields and javelins, lightly clothed, some entering battle naked with only their genitals covered. Their language is "barbarous" (that is, not Greek-speaking), and the two tribes do not differ in appearance, being tall and robust, "while their bodies and hair are neither very fair or blond, nor indeed do they incline entirely to the dark type, but they are all slightly ruddy in color. And they live a hard life, giving no heed to bodily comforts..."
This is a description of the early Slavs, no disrespect to R1a people, but these traits of are associated with i2a-din majority populations, what do you think ?
Procopius wrote in 545 that "the Sclaveni and the Antae actually had a single name in the remote past; for they were both called Sporoi in olden times." He described them as barbarians, who lived under democracy, and that they believe in one god, "the maker of lightning" (Perun), to whom they made sacrifice. They lived in scattered housing, and constantly changed settlement. Regarding warfare, they were mainly foot soldiers with small shields and javelins, lightly clothed, some entering battle naked with only their genitals covered. Their language is "barbarous" (that is, not Greek-speaking), and the two tribes do not differ in appearance, being tall and robust, "while their bodies and hair are neither very fair or blond, nor indeed do they incline entirely to the dark type, but they are all slightly ruddy in color. And they live a hard life, giving no heed to bodily comforts..."
This is a description of the early Slavs, no disrespect to R1a people, but these traits of are associated with i2a-din majority populations, what do you think ?
IronSide
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In countries like Turkey or Greece where many paternal and maternal haplogroups exist that could be true, however if a haplogroup exists in large numbers in a population where it amounts to 60% or more then it must contribute to physical features.
Physical traits of a population is the sum of all traits of maternal and paternal haplogroups multiplied by their frequency, the lesser the diversity or higher frequency of one group will result in that group making the most recognizable output.
Just look at southern and northern Italy, or southern slavic countries and Poland. I dont know but I observe blonde hair to be associated with R1a majority populations for example, not always but observable, the Indo Aryans before they invaded India most likely had fair features that are still present in Afghanistan and some from the higher castes of Hinduism.
in answering the question of how I2a-Din got to the balkans I favoured the slavic expansions because of the quote I mentioned, if you were to suppose paleolithic continuity then R1a subclades were the only ones that migrated to the balkans, surely procopuis would have discribed them as fair at least.
I hope i'm not seeing paterns where non exist.
Dominant and Recessive Genes In Humans
http://www.sciencebrainwaves.com/dominant-and-recessive-genes-in-humans/
Human Traits: autosomal
http://faculty.southwest.tn.edu/jiwilliams/human_traits.htm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_genetics
Inheritance of traits for humans are based upon Gregor Mendel's model of inheritance. Mendel deduced that inheritance depends upon discrete units of inheritance, called factors or genes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mendelian_traits_in_humans
http://www.ck12.org/user:dGVycnlyQH...%3Aof%3A%3A-Human-Genetics-and-Biotechnology/
http://www.sciencebrainwaves.com/dominant-and-recessive-genes-in-humans/
Human Traits: autosomal
http://faculty.southwest.tn.edu/jiwilliams/human_traits.htm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_genetics
Inheritance of traits for humans are based upon Gregor Mendel's model of inheritance. Mendel deduced that inheritance depends upon discrete units of inheritance, called factors or genes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mendelian_traits_in_humans
http://www.ck12.org/user:dGVycnlyQH...%3Aof%3A%3A-Human-Genetics-and-Biotechnology/
Slavs are ethnogenesis of I and R1a people who lived side by side as neighbours and brothers for long long time. way before Dacians and Thracians who are their descendents. simple as that. there were no migration of I2 people no metter what you have read in history books because Slavic culture predates all written history. especially I hpg is very interesting as it is the only old native european hpg left and very very old. the history should have to be rewritten if we accepted the truth about Slavic ethnogenesis and it's influnece on ancient and modern european history and culture.
Cip
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Dacians were also called Getae, they predate slavs in Balkans. Let look at a map of the Dacian (Getae) in Asia
See the Massagetae in south Kazahstan. If Massagetae are descendents of the Getae (Dacians) form Balkans, and if I2a-Din was a Dacian haplogroup we expect to see Hg I there. ok, let see this map:
It looks like there is a poket of Hg I exactly in the teritory of Massagetae, that means they cary it from their original homeland Dacia. That implies it was in Balkans way befor slavs.
Maybe i'll make it clearer in net picture:
I dont't say that slavs in their migration didn't pick up some Dacian I2a, but in East Europe origin of I2a-din IS NOT SLAVIC.
I also believe Thracians and Dacians were closely related, but I2a wasn't thracian either. See the map made by bulgarians that separated thracian citys from the dacaians by their name:
Now let see a pattern:
Vlachs and Romanians are the direct descendents of Dacians that were romanised. Slavs only pick up the Hg and spread it at some extent.
See the Massagetae in south Kazahstan. If Massagetae are descendents of the Getae (Dacians) form Balkans, and if I2a-Din was a Dacian haplogroup we expect to see Hg I there. ok, let see this map:
It looks like there is a poket of Hg I exactly in the teritory of Massagetae, that means they cary it from their original homeland Dacia. That implies it was in Balkans way befor slavs.
Maybe i'll make it clearer in net picture:
I dont't say that slavs in their migration didn't pick up some Dacian I2a, but in East Europe origin of I2a-din IS NOT SLAVIC.
I also believe Thracians and Dacians were closely related, but I2a wasn't thracian either. See the map made by bulgarians that separated thracian citys from the dacaians by their name:
Now let see a pattern:
Vlachs and Romanians are the direct descendents of Dacians that were romanised. Slavs only pick up the Hg and spread it at some extent.
DuPidh
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Its obvious that I2a is not Illyrian. North Albania, Kosovo, is only 3% I2a din. North Albania+Kosovo+Macedonian Albanians are 2/3 of present Albanian population and score low in I2a1. South Albania being under Bullgarian empire for 120 years is about 12% I2a. Clear indication of Bulgarian infusion.
The haplogroup reaches its maximum frequency in the Dinaric Alps in Bosnia, where the men are on record as being the tallest in the world, with a male average height of 185.6 cm (6 ft 1.1 in).The same can be said about their northern "brothers" where I1 dominate,much like the very tall Illyrian Greeks described.
So far the best candidate for this haplogroup is Cucuteni-Trypillian culture from where it spread more further.Only if we does genetic tests we can know this.
So far the best candidate for this haplogroup is Cucuteni-Trypillian culture from where it spread more further.Only if we does genetic tests we can know this.
IronSide
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Illyrians or Dacians or Slavs or any other theory should in my opinion attempt to explain its recent TMRCA which is between 2600 <---> 1950 years ago with a 95% accuracy according to https://www.yfull.com/tree/I2/, any historic peoples before this time frame are excluded.
And who estimated this TMRCA,who is him,is he reliable? Send a scientific paper claiming that,can you?send a scientific paper that this haplogroup wasn't on the Balkans 2600 <---> 1950 years ago and is agreed among scholars? as for people like Ken Nordvedt or similar branch like Klyosov if we take to literate everything they say,then.... we can go in another field.