How old is French nation

[Jovani]

I opened a topic about the French language, but the topic was closed before I had a chance to talk. One sentence intrigued me though*****Their evolution can be traced back all the way to their beginnings, with rock-solid evidence for each and every change over 2600 years.*********is it true French nation is so old?

 

[Zeus10]

I opened a topic about the French language, but the topic was closed before I had a chance to talk. One sentence intrigued me though*****Their evolution can be traced back all the way to their beginnings, with rock-solid evidence for each and every change over 2600 years.*********is it true French nation is so old?

Your question doesn't have a simple answer, because there were at least 3 different major cultural layers during the history, to create what we know as ad hoc French culture, the Celtic Gauls or Galatians, Franks a Germanic tribe and Latins who contributed drastically to shape the French culture. Considering this, unable to divide the borders of this cultural interference, I would say that a more reasonable question would be: How Old is the French language might be considered. Now from what I have read and learned, the oldest form of French :langue d'oil doesn't appear older than beyond 9th century CE. So a rough estimate, would bring the result approximately 1300 years Old.
Pietro Bogdani, a Medieval Albanian scholar, in his history timeline(left in Italian) decides their first ruler name as a patronymic, Franco, the son of Priam, who ruled over French on the Byzantine year 2818, which I am not sure what represents. All I know is that the year 0 in the Byzantine Calendar starts at 5509 BC

 

[hrvclv]

I opened a topic about the French language, but the topic was closed before I had a chance to talk. One sentence intrigued me though*****Their evolution can be traced back all the way to their beginnings, with rock-solid evidence for each and every change over 2600 years.*********is it true French nation is so old?

The 2600 years include both the rise and fall of Rome as a superpower, from the 7th century BC to the early years of the 5th century AD, and the very gradual emergence of French as a distinct language, from the so-called "vulgar latin" spoken by the Roman soldiers to the homogeneous French language currently used.

You have to bear in mind that a language evolves very slowly, with more rapid changes following "traumatic" events (invasions, revolutions, etc...). After Gaul was conquered by the Romans, the Celtic people who had long spoken Gaulish adopted the language of their victors. By then the Latin spoken by the legions was no longer classical Latin. However, to the vanquished, Latin (with its alphabet and literature) held a degree of prestige, and, for the surviving Gaulish élite, guaranteed quicker integration into the Roman world. Also, more profitable business. Apparently, pockets of spoken Gaulish survived well into the 6th century AD, but basically the Gallo-Romans spoke Latin.

After the fall of Rome (ca 410 AD), "barbarian" tribes invaded and settled Gaul. They spoke Germanic languages, which coexisted for a while alongside with Latin. Little by little, though, the native Gallo-Romans being more numerous, their language prevailed. Latin was the language of clerks and scholars, and survived unchanged in that sphere, but as time went by, the illiterate commoners developed diverse local versions of a more and more simplified Latin, which became known as the Romance language(s). By the 10th century AD, the French languages that had emerged from Latin had retained only two grammatical cases, the "cas sujet" (nominative) and "cas régime" (accusative). A number of germanic words had entered the language. Latin and Romance were no longer mutually intelligible. The northern half of France, more densely settled by the Germanic-speaking Franks, developed the Langue d'Oïl (after their pronunciation of the word "oui"), while the southern half retained dialects closer to Latin (the Langue d'Oc dialects).

There was no linguistic unity though. From valley to valley, the dialects changed ever so little, but if you went far enough, your dialect was not understood. This was true across the "Roman" world. From south Portugal all the way across Spain, then across France, then all the way down to Sicily, a dialect followed another, slightly different, but... different.

Little by little, in France, a number a very charismatic kings (François 1er, Henri IV, Louis XIII, Louis XIV) managed to increasingly centralize the political power in Paris, defeating powerful but rebellious dukes. The Renaissance and the invention of the printed press ushered in a new era : the language spoken in Paris by the court became the norm. Official papers were written in that language all over the kingdom. The Siècle des Lumières (the 18C) then normalized the otherwise anarchic spelling. In the late 19C, compulsory education made French the one and only acceptable language. Dialects were banned from schools, and children punished when they used them. Over the 20C, most dialects went extinct, except for non-French outliers like Basque, Breton, Alsacian, and Corsican.

I've got "family papers" dating back to the 1660s. They are in French, and fairly easy to decipher. Yet, my grandmother (died 1990) spoke dialect with her sister and neighbours). My parents were the first generation not to use dialect in everyday life.

 

[Jovani]

The 2600 years include both the rise of Rome as a superpower, from the 7th century BC to the early years of the 5th century AD, and the very gradual emergence of French as a distinct language, from the so-called "vulgar latin" spoken by the Roman soldiers to the homogeneous French language currently used.You have to bear in mind that a language evolves very slowly, with more rapid changes following "traumatic" events (invasions, revolutions, etc...). After Gaul was conquered by the Romans, the Celtic people who had long spoken Gaulish adopted the language of their victors. By then the Latin spoken by the legions was no longer classical Latin. However, to the vanquished, Latin (with its alphabet and literature) held a degree of prestige, and, for the surviving Gaulish élite, guaranteed quicker integration into the Roman world. Also, more profitable business. Apparently, pockets of spoken Gaulish survived well into the 6th century AD, but basically the Gallo-Romans spoke Latin. After the fall of Rome (ca 410 AD), "barbarian" tribes invaded and settled Gaul. They spoke Germanic languages, which coexisted for a while alongside with Latin. Little by little, though, the native Gallo-Romans being more numerous, their language prevailed. Latin was the language of clerks and scholars, and survived unchanged in that sphere, but as time went by, the illiterate commoners developed diverse local versions of a more and more simplified Latin, which became known as the Romance language(s). By the 10th century AD, the French languages that had emerged from Latin had retained only two grammatical cases, the "cas sujet" (nominative) and "cas régime" (accusative). A number of germanic words had entered the language. Latin and Romance were no longer mutually intelligible. The northern half of France, more densely settled by the Germanic-speaking Franks, developed the Langue d'Oïl (after their pronunciation of the word "oui"), while the southern half retained dialects closer to Latin (the Langue d'Oc dialects).There was no linguistic unity though. From valley to valley, the dialects changed ever so little, but if you went far enough, your dialect was not understood. This was true across the "Roman" world. From south Portugal all the way across Spain, then across France, then all the way down to Sicily, a dialect followed another, slightly different, but... different.Little by little, in France, a number a very charismatic kings (François 1er, Henri IV, Louis XIII, Louis XIV) managed to increasingly centralize the political power in Paris, defeating powerful but rebellious dukes. The Renaissance and the invention of the printed press ushered in a new era : the language spoken in Paris by the court became the norm. Official papers were written in that language all over the kingdom. The Siècle des Lumières (the 18C) then normalized the otherwise anarchic spelling. In the late 19C, compulsory education made French the one and only acceptable language. Dialects were banned from schools, and children punished when they used them. Over the 20C, most dialects went extinct, except for non-French outliers like Basque, Breton, Alsacian, and Corsican.I've got "family papers" dating back to the 1660s. They are in French, and fairly easy to decipher. Yet, my grandmother (died 1990) spoke dialect with her sister and neighbours). My parents were the first generation not to use dialect in everyday life.

Thank you hrvclv, for the detailed information. At first when I saw 2600 years old, made me very happy, a little dissapointed when I saw Latins were included in the cart.

 

[Jovani]

Your question doesn't have a simple answer, because there were at least 3 different major cultural layers during the history, to create what we know as ad hoc French culture, the Celtic Gauls or Galatians, Franks a Germanic tribe and Latins who contributed drastically to shape the French culture. Considering this, unable to divide the borders of this cultural interference, I would say that a more reasonable question would be: How Old is the French language might be considered. Now from what I have read and learned, the oldest form of French :langue d'oil doesn't appear older than beyond 9th century CE. So a rough estimate, would bring the result approximately 1300 years Old.Pietro Bogdani, a Medieval Albanian scholar, in his history timeline(left in Italian) decides their first ruler name as a patronymic, Franco, the son of Priam, who ruled over French on the Byzantine year 2818, which I am not sure what represents. All I know is that the year 0 in the Byzantine Calendar starts at 5509 BC

This is great Zeus10 , an exact year means a lot. BTW if the year zero starts at 5509 BCE, this means 2818 byzant. has to be 2691 BCE. Right?

 

[Ygorcs]

I opened a topic about the French language, but the topic was closed before I had a chance to talk. One sentence intrigued me though*****Their evolution can be traced back all the way to their beginnings, with rock-solid evidence for each and every change over 2600 years.*********is it true French nation is so old?

It wasn't I who wrote that sentence, but I feel confident to say that what that member of the forum meant was that there are written evidences for each of the phases of the linguistic evolution from Old Latin to Contemporary French. That was a comment about the Latin language that was adopted by the several different peoples who inhabited or eventually migrated to France - and not a comment about the French nation per se. The language does not necessarily exist as long as the nation, and vice-versa. Since the French adopted their language from a foreign country (Latin spoken in Central Italy originally), we must always differentiate between the language and the nation/culture speaking that language. The speakers of Old and early Classical Latin were Romans or, more broadly, Italians, the language was not spoken in France yet.

A nation is formed by a community that is self-conscious about their sharing the same culture, language, social organization and at least partially a common historic path in the past and present. The French nation wasn't born once and for all, automatically in any given year. It was the result of a gradual process of cultural and political changes that, slowly, led to a kind of ethnic and political unification that, finally, gave us one defined French nation that could be distinguished from other nations around it. The French nation doesn't have any unequivocal birthday, but it is certainly much younger than the Latin language. It is the result of a long Roman rule and acculturation on Celtic (mainly Gaulish) lands with a later superstrate brought by Germanic tribes. We can say that the French nation was born in the Middle Ages roughly between 500 and 1200 AD in an increasingly consolidated form, but no specific date can be established.

 

[Zeus10]

This is great Zeus10 , an exact year means a lot. BTW if the year zero starts at 5509 BCE, this means 2818 byzant. has to be 2691 BCE. Right?

No, it's another formula to calculate the date. I don't know it but they are saying it is 641 AD with our calendar. I don't know if this is correct, but the source is extremely accurate. Pietro Bogdani was archbishop of Macedonia of the
Catholic Church. As you might know, religious institutions like Catholic Church have possessed the most reliable chronicles and timelines documentations. However if we trust this source, this will open Pandora's Box, because if you look few lines below, you will notice King Saul the first Hebraic king, who is beleived to have lived 11th century BCE, to be more recent than French Franco.

 

[Angela]

Keep it up you two, and this thread will be closed too. I won't get tired.

Isn't it obvious to our other members that these guys are a t-roll (t-rolls)? Why encourage them?

 

[Yetos]

that callendar is an old effort to estimate the Genesis, the creation, by Clerics,

so the first year is the year of creation,
for example
then Adam lived 175 but bear his son at 30,
Seth lived 500 years, but bear at 70 etc,
Mathousala lived 900 years, but bear his son at age of 500
etc etc

by such calculations they estimate the 'first day of creation'

it is around 5600 year now from year 0,

IT is Clear that we speak about a cleric and religious Diary.
that tell us that the world is created at 7 days
and the world has history about 5600 years,
and Mathusala lived 900 years etrified:
PS
I wonder when dinosaurs lived !!!!!


That diary follows the old callendar
for example today is not 20/03/2018
but 6/03/xxxx
compare the Julian calendar
and older forms of Roman before Julian callendar

with xxxx i do not know the exact year for now,
I am sure it is above 5500, near 6000,
but it is somewhere there,
as the Clerics calculate it

 

[Zeus10]

Keep it up you two, and this thread will be closed too. I won't get tired.

Isn't it obvious to our other members that these guys are a t-roll (t-rolls)? Why encourage them?

This is your second time you ofending me. Nobody is ******** anything. If you want to close it go ahead.

 

[Yetos]

As for the literature of the Gaulish language,

and the history of its existance,

we know it by the Greek letters signatures even to transalpine gauls,
estimated around 250-300 BC

Gauls Used Greek Alphabet,

So Gaulish were for sure and existed 300 BC
that is certified.



Now that is also celtic with Greek latters,
if remember correct in Slovania
In fact for thoise who know history
it is From Norici Celts NORICUM

It is a boys name Artebudz
i do not want to translate it

 

[Zeus10]

As for the literature of the Gaulish language,
and the history of its existance,
we know it by the Greek letters signatures even to transalpine gauls,
estimated around 250-300 BC
Gauls Used Greek Alphabet,
So Gaulish were for sure and existed 300 BC
that is certified.
Now that is also celtic with Greek latters,
if remember correct in Slovania
In fact for thoise who know history
it is From Norici Celts NORICUM

It is a boys name Artebudz
i do not want to translate it

Yes Yetos, before this thread get closed by Angela for absolutely no reason, Gaul was brother with Illyrus and Celtus, who are patriarchs of respectively Gauls Illyrians and Celts in the Greek Mythology.

 

[Yetos]

Yes Yetos, before this thread get closed by Angela for absolutely no reason, Gaul was brother with Illyrus and Celtus, who are patriarchs of respectively Gauls Illyrians and Celts in the Greek Mythology.

so we agree?

artebudz is Illyrian

 

[LABERIA]

so we agree?

artebudz is Illyrian

Don't you see that he is banned?
Maybe you can not you resist the temptation to do the only thing that you know to do.

 

[Yetos]

Don't you see that he is banned?
Maybe you can not you resist the temptation to do the only thing that you know to do.

what are talking about?

how can you see he is banned?

 

[LABERIA]

what are talking about?
how can you see he is banned?

You don't know? It's very simple.
Under your nickname is written Regular Member. Under the nickname of Zeus is written Banned.
Honestly, it is ainigmatic to me how someone like you after so many years continue to be a member of this forum meanwhile Zeus was banned twice in less than one month.

 

[Jovani]

Hatred involved.

 

[Angela]

This thread is now closed.