How Old Prussian were the East Prussian Germans?

[sparkey]

How much of the genetics of the East Prussian Germans who left in the mid 20th century actually came from the native Old Prussians of the region? If it was little, these people were not native to the area, and were in many cases returning home. If it was a lot, then the expulsion displaced people whose roots extended into the region since prehistory. Which is it?

I think this is an answerable question. We have Y-DNA samples of both Old Prussian descendants and of East Prussian Germans, as well as a good enough understanding of the Y-DNA distribution in Northern Germany to use as a baseline. I found the following percentages for the three populations of the four main haplogroups relative to one another:

Population: R1a : R1b : N : I1
OldP: 46% : 13% : 39% : 1%
EastP: 32% : 24% : 28% : 16%
NGer: 28% : 46% : 2% : 24%
[East Prussian German percentages take into account only the apparent East Prussian Germans from the Ostpreussen project]

The distribution of all four haplogroups of the East Prussian Germans predictably falls between the Old Prussians and Northern Germans. We can then average the haplogroup distances to come to an estimate of the percentage contributed by the Old Prussians. A distance can be calculated using the formula: |(NGer% - EastP%)|/(|(OldP% - EastP%)|+|NGer% - EastP%|)

We get:
Per R1a: 22%
Per R1b: 67%
Per N: 70%
Per I1: 35%
Average: 49%

So there we have it. On the Y line, the East Prussian Germans were about half Old Prussian. Since I expect the German settlers there to have contributed disproportionately to the Y line, in terms of overall contribution, I'd be comfortable in saying that the Old Prussian contribution was at least about half.

 

[LeBrok]

Interesting. I have to admit I didn't expect so high germanic influence in East Prussia.

I'm baffled by Old Prussians numbers too. For example we have figures for I1 around 6% in Poland and Russia, but importantly also 6% for Lithuania and Latvia. These are the lowest numbers for adjacent areas, because we have bigger numbers in Estonia, Finland and Germany for I1. It is hard for me too believe that somehow Old Prussia was immune against I1 haplogroup.

These are their closest Baltic cousins.
Lithuania (form Eupedia) R1a 38%, R1b 5%, N 42%, I1 6%, Latvia R1a 40, R1b 12%, N 38%, I1 6%
If Old Prussians were their true blood brothers and not only cultural, it should average for them:
R1a 41%, R1b 10%, N 42%, I1 7% (at 100%)

Now it is hard to say if Templars were mostly North or South Germans, or how many of them where mercenaries from other parts of Western Europe. I'm not sure how many Germans moved as trades/immigrants into Prussian's cities later. I know there were many in Poland at this time, I assume there were many in German speaking Prussia.
Old Prussians were the most east Balts, bordering with east Germanics for perhaps a thousand years. I would expect their N to be lower then Lithuanian's and I1 higher, and in disagreement with Old Prussian numbers from post above.

Seeing many unknown I would concentrate on N haplogroup the most, as it was almost nonexistent in Teutonic Knights and in German Immigrants. And if we can trust N percentile in Baltic area, and study of East Prussians.

When I do this formula =(N 40%-28%)*100/ N 40% = 30% shift in N.


The rest of numbers might be too speculative for good conclusions.

I'm still surprised. I didn't expect this shift to go over 20%, perhaps even as low as 10%.

 

[zanipolo]

How much of the genetics of the East Prussian Germans who left in the mid 20th century actually came from the native Old Prussians of the region? If it was little, these people were not native to the area, and were in many cases returning home. If it was a lot, then the expulsion displaced people whose roots extended into the region since prehistory. Which is it?

I think this is an answerable question. We have Y-DNA samples of both Old Prussian descendants and of East Prussian Germans, as well as a good enough understanding of the Y-DNA distribution in Northern Germany to use as a baseline. I found the following percentages for the three populations of the four main haplogroups relative to one another:

Population: R1a : R1b : N : I1
OldP: 46% : 13% : 39% : 1%
EastP: 32% : 24% : 28% : 16%
NGer: 28% : 46% : 2% : 24%
[East Prussian German percentages take into account only the apparent East Prussian Germans from the Ostpreussen project]

The distribution of all four haplogroups of the East Prussian Germans predictably falls between the Old Prussians and Northern Germans. We can then average the haplogroup distances to come to an estimate of the percentage contributed by the Old Prussians. A distance can be calculated using the formula: |(NGer% - EastP%)|/(|(OldP% - EastP%)|+|NGer% - EastP%|)

We get:
Per R1a: 22%
Per R1b: 67%
Per N: 70%
Per I1: 35%
Average: 49%

So there we have it. On the Y line, the East Prussian Germans were about half Old Prussian. Since I expect the German settlers there to have contributed disproportionately to the Y line, in terms of overall contribution, I'd be comfortable in saying that the Old Prussian contribution was at least about half.

I cannot find the old pruessen project ...can you link.

-Does old prussian mean baltic-prussian from the 9th century onwards?

-Are these the main markers or all of the markers, because there was found marker G2a3* in warmia at the time of christ. associated with the Heruli, Raetian G2a3b1 and northern greeks G2a3a(?)1 .....said to be circassian people.

- according to the teutonic web site, more than 80% of germans in Prussia initially came from saxons and thuringians.
-

 

[sparkey]

I'm baffled by Old Prussians numbers too. For example we have figures for I1 around 6% in Poland and Russia, but importantly also 6% for Lithuania and Latvia. These are the lowest numbers for adjacent areas, because we have bigger numbers in Estonia, Finland and Germany for I1. It is hard for me too believe that somehow Old Prussia was immune against I1 haplogroup.

These are their closest Baltic cousins.
Lithuania (form Eupedia) R1a 38%, R1b 5%, N 42%, I1 6%, Latvia R1a 40, R1b 12%, N 38%, I1 6%
If Old Prussians were their true blood brothers and not only cultural, it should average for them:
R1a 41%, R1b 10%, N 42%, I1 7% (at 100%)

I think in most cases in the Baltic, I1 is a relatively late arrival, although 1% may indeed be a bit low. I don't think 7% is correct, either, though... seems high, considering that we would also expect Teutonic influence in places like Lithuania influencing the current I1 levels. So maybe 4% would be about right... but that would only change the I1 based percentage to 40%, and the average to about 50%. I think that "about half" is the result either way.

Now it is hard to say if Templars were mostly North or South Germans, or how many of them where mercenaries from other parts of Western Europe. I'm not sure how many Germans moved as trades/immigrants into Prussian's cities later. I know there were many in Poland at this time, I assume there were many in German speaking Prussia.

This is a legitimate criticism, and indeed, I picked Northern Germans as being representative of Teutonic Knights, but that might not be the case. I can recalculate if anybody has what they think is a more appropriate baseline distribution.

Seeing many unknown I would concentrate on N haplogroup the most, as it was almost nonexistent in Teutonic Knights and in German Immigrants. And if we can trust N percentile in Baltic area, and study of East Prussians.

When I do this formula =(N 40%-28%)*100/ N 4% = 30% shift in N.

The reason I'm not relying on individual haplogroups is that my EastP sample size is too small, so the error bars would be near 100%, i.e., the number would be meaningless.

My sample sizes for the 4 haplogroups:
OldP: 82
EastP: 25
NGer: 250 to 500 (per Maciamo)

I think either way, even with the small sample size and assumptions involved, it's apparent that the East Prussian Germans had too much N to be close to "pure German" and too much I1 to be close to "pure Old Prussian."

I'm still surprised. I didn't expect this shift to go over 20%, perhaps even as low as 10%.

I suspect the numbers would be around that for mtDNA, and probably hover in the 30% German influence range for autosomal DNA. (Just a guess.) One effect that may be in play is population transfer within Prussia and the German Empire over a long period of time. Not all of this DNA has to have come from the Teutonic Knights.

 

[sparkey]

I cannot find the old pruessen project ...can you link.

It's the same as the Old Prussian descendants link I've posted.

-Does old prussian mean baltic-prussian from the 9th century onwards?

Basically, it means the Baltic natives to the area around modern Kaliningrad. What's the significance of the 9th century?

-Are these the main markers or all of the markers, because there was found marker G2a3* in warmia at the time of christ. associated with the Heruli, Raetian G2a3b1 and northern greeks G2a3a(?)1 .....said to be circassian people.

None of these populations have significant G2a. There isn't a clear fifth haplogroup... the fifth largest among the East Prussian Germans looks to have been I2a-Din (Polish drift?).

- according to the teutonic web site, more than 80% of germans in Prussia initially came from saxons and thuringians.

What is the haplogroup distribution for Saxony+Thuringia? Maybe something like: R1a 20% : R1b 60% : N 1% : I1 19%? In that case, I get that the East Prussian Germans were about 53% Old Prussian... still about half.

 

[zanipolo]

It's the same as the Old Prussian descendants link I've posted.

I thought you where referring to this one

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/ostpreussen_east_prussia/default.aspx

Basically, it means the Baltic natives to the area around modern Kaliningrad. What's the significance of the 9th century?

i meant these people
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Prussians
http://prusowie.pl/historia/who_were_the_prussians.php

What is the haplogroup distribution for Saxony+Thuringia? Maybe something like: R1a 20% : R1b 60% : N 1% : I1 19%? In that case, I get that the East Prussian Germans were about 53% Old Prussian... still about half.

this is stated from the teutonic order site, that is regarding the germans they enlisted for prussia


in regards to 9th century, the old baltic prussians are said to have originated in majority by the aestiian people who controlled from the vistula to the redon river ( curonia lands) , had venedi inside of them on the coast, had gothones, gepids, galidians, samians, etc .......
basically from the vistula river to present latvian lands.
there where no slavic or germanic people there, there is a higher chance there where finnic and nordic people mixed with the baltic 1500 to 2000 years ago

you even have as part of the germanic Catherine the Great of Russia personnel letters , that the prussian area comprised mostly of lettish people

 

[zanipolo]

How much of the genetics of the East Prussian Germans who left in the mid 20th century actually came from the native Old Prussians of the region? If it was little, these people were not native to the area, and were in many cases returning home. If it was a lot, then the expulsion displaced people whose roots extended into the region since prehistory. Which is it?

I think this is an answerable question. We have Y-DNA samples of both Old Prussian descendants and of East Prussian Germans, as well as a good enough understanding of the Y-DNA distribution in Northern Germany to use as a baseline. I found the following percentages for the three populations of the four main haplogroups relative to one another:

Population: R1a : R1b : N : I1
OldP: 46% : 13% : 39% : 1%
EastP: 32% : 24% : 28% : 16%
NGer: 28% : 46% : 2% : 24%
[East Prussian German percentages take into account only the apparent East Prussian Germans from the Ostpreussen project]

The distribution of all four haplogroups of the East Prussian Germans predictably falls between the Old Prussians and Northern Germans. We can then average the haplogroup distances to come to an estimate of the percentage contributed by the Old Prussians. A distance can be calculated using the formula: |(NGer% - EastP%)|/(|(OldP% - EastP%)|+|NGer% - EastP%|)

We get:
Per R1a: 22%
Per R1b: 67%
Per N: 70%
Per I1: 35%
Average: 49%

So there we have it. On the Y line, the East Prussian Germans were about half Old Prussian. Since I expect the German settlers there to have contributed disproportionately to the Y line, in terms of overall contribution, I'd be comfortable in saying that the Old Prussian contribution was at least about half.

How much of the N marker is due to Prussian territory still being a Russian enclave today?

 

[dublin]

This is a legitimate criticism, and indeed, I picked Northern Germans as being representative of Teutonic Knights, but that might not be the case. I can recalculate if anybody has what they think is a more appropriate baseline distribution.

Formed at the end of the 12th century in Acre, in the Levant, the medieval Order played an important role in Outremer, controlling the port tolls of Acre. After Christian forces were defeated in the Middle East, the Order moved to Transylvania in 1211 to help defend the South-Eastern borders of the Kingdom of Hungary against the Kipchaks. The Knights were expelled by force of arms by king Andrew II of Hungary in 1225, after allegedly attempting to place themselves under Papal instead of the original Hungarian sovereignty.^[3]
In 1230, following the Golden Bull of Rimini, Grand MasterHermann von Salza and Duke Konrad I of Masovia launched the Prussian Crusade, a joint invasion of Prussia intended to Christianize the Baltic Old Prussians. The Knights had quickly taken steps against their Polish hosts and with the Emperor's support had changed the status of Chełmno Land (also Ziemia Chelminska or Kulmerland), where they were invited by the Polish prince into their own property. Starting from Chełmno Land the Order created the independent Monastic State of the Teutonic Knights adding continuously the conquered Prussian's territory, and subsequently conquered Livonia. The Kings of Poland accused the Order of holding lands rightfully theirs, specifically Chełmno Land and the Polish Kingdom's lands conquered later, such as Pomerelia (also Pomorze Gdańskie or Pomerania), Kujawy, Dobrzyń Land etc..

so teutonic knights were coming from the south and i see no reason for them to be I1. i would say they were mostly R1b.

also you are forgetting 30 years war and what it had done to east germany. here is a map of depopulation. have a look at the prussian lands. the darker the color the bigger depopulation and later population replacement. so basically we have no way of knowing what the population was in today's eastern germany before the 30 years war based on today's genetics. and there were many more wars and population shifts it that areas since. based on history and archaeology i would say that original population was mostly r1a + I2 + N with very little I1...R1b came with germanic invasions from the west.

in regards to 9th century, the old baltic prussians are said to have originated in majority by the aestiian people who controlled from the vistula to the redon river ( curonia lands) , had venedi inside of them on the coast, had gothones, gepids, galidians, samians, etc .......
basically from the vistula river to present latvian lands.
there where no slavic or germanic people there, there is a higher chance there where finnic and nordic people mixed with the baltic 1500 to 2000 years ago

i would not agree with this. i believe the population was mixed both genetically and culturally with common balto slavic (wendish) languages being spoken. they were probably also some scandinavians present as well.

 

[sparkey]

so teutonic knights were coming from the south and i see no reason for them to be I1. i would say they were mostly R1b.

First of all, I misworded what I meant a bit. I don't think that the Germanic contribution to the East Prussian Germans was all from the Teutonic Knights. Secondly, I'm not claiming that they were I1 entirely, I'm trying to make a calculation based on an approximate distribution. My numbers have R1b as higher than I1, also. Even if the baseline we use for I1 contribution from Germanic peoples is less than the amount we see in our sample of East Prussian Germans, we'll still likely find them to be intermediate between German and Old Prussian distributions. What do you think the approximate R1a : R1b : N : I1 distribution was of all the Germanic people who moved to East Prussia over time? I'll run the numbers again if you have some you like better.

also you are forgetting 30 years war and what it had done to east germany. here is a map of depopulation. have a look at the prussian lands. the darker the color the bigger depopulation and later population replacement. so basically we have no way of knowing what the population was in today's eastern germany before the 30 years war based on today's genetics. and there were many more wars and population shifts it that areas since. based on history and archaeology i would say that original population was mostly r1a + I2 + N with very little I1...R1b came with germanic invasions from the west.

But I'm interested in the East Prussian German haplogroup distribution immediately prior to the flight and expulsion, not immediately prior to the 30 Years War.

 

[zanipolo]

so teutonic knights were coming from the south and i see no reason for them to be I1. i would say they were mostly R1b.

also you are forgetting 30 years war and what it had done to east germany. here is a map of depopulation. have a look at the prussian lands. the darker the color the bigger depopulation and later population replacement. so basically we have no way of knowing what the population was in today's eastern germany before the 30 years war based on today's genetics. and there were many more wars and population shifts it that areas since. based on history and archaeology i would say that original population was mostly r1a + I2 + N with very little I1...R1b came with germanic invasions from the west.

View attachment 5822




i would not agree with this. i believe the population was mixed both genetically and culturally with common balto slavic (wendish) languages being spoken. they were probably also some scandinavians present as well.

teutonic knights as per link mostly came from saxons and thuringians

http://www.imperialteutonicorder.com/


your fragmentation map has no prussia on it .........its only Poland. Its a map of the slavs butchering the historical people who resided there
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltic_culture_in_Pomerania
original baltic people where butchered by the slavs in the darkages.

The teutonic knights where brought in by the pope on the request of the polish king because he had already lost 2 wars against the baltic prussians and could not stop the inland invasion by them especially in mazovia.

moving to modern times
The first Germans and Saxons arrived to the area with the Teutonic Order in order to Christianise Lithuanians and Prussians in the medieval period. However, the process of Germanisation was especially strong in the area only in the 18th-20th centuries, and therefore many German and Saxon speaking people were in fact germanised ethnic Prussians, Lithuanians or Masurians. Only German Hansetic merchants established a foothold in Prussia in the medieval period.
The Treaty of Visby of 1949 ceded East Prussia to the Republic of the Two Crowns and most of it became Prussia province of Veneda. Initially the issue of Prussia created some discontent between Veneda and Lithuania as Lithuania seeked to acquire Lithuania Minor, which the snorist Lithuanian State controlled in 1947-1949.

 

[LeBrok]

original baltic people where butchered by the slavs in the darkages.

Any documents from Dark Ages proving your hypothesis?

The teutonic knights where brought in by the pope on the request of the polish king because he had already lost 2 wars against the baltic prussians and could not stop the inland invasion by them especially mazovia.

Poland had no king at this time, only many princes ruling smaller regions.

 

[zanipolo]

Any documents from Dark Ages proving your hypothesis?

yes, which part , that baltic tribes did not live in pomerania ?

Poland had no king at this time, only many princes ruling smaller regions.

:startled:

There was a Polish King around 1000AD

Bolesław I Chrobry (aka Bolesław I the Brave or the Valiant) (Czech: Boleslav Chrabrý) ( Polish (help·info); 967 – 17 June 1025), in the past also known as Bolesław I the Great (Wielki), was a Duke of Poland in 992–1025 and the first King of Poland from 19 April 1025 until his death. He also ruled as Boleslav IV, Duke of Bohemia during 1002–1003.

 

[LeBrok]

Do you have a problem with comprehensive reading?

yes, which part , that baltic tribes did not live in pomerania ?

I specifically asked you to clarify this claim:

original baltic people where butchered by the slavs in the darkages.

:startled:

There was a Polish King before 1000AD

Bolesław I Chrobry (aka Bolesław I the Brave or the Valiant) (Czech: Boleslav Chrabrý) ( Polish (help·info); 967 – 17 June 1025), in the past also known as Bolesław I the Great (Wielki), was a Duke of Poland in 992–1025 and the first King of Poland from 19 April 1025 until his death. He also ruled as Boleslav IV, Duke of Bohemia during 1002–1003.

Aren't we talking about 1226 AD, when first Templars arrived in Poland to fight Prussians?
What king who lived 200 years ago has to do with it???! Are you time traveling again zanipolo?

So let me stress it this time, there was no polish king in 1226AD, and in whole 13th century! Also Poland didn't exist as a country or a state at this time either, till unification of 14 century.

 

[zanipolo]

Do you have a problem with comprehensive reading?



I specifically asked you to clarify this claim:





Aren't we talking about 1226 AD, when first Templars arrived in Poland to fight Prussians?
What king who lived 200 years ago has to do with it???! Are you time traveling again zanipolo?

So let me stress it this time, there was no polish king in 1226AD, and in whole 13th century! Also Poland didn't exist as a country or a state at this time either, till unification of 14 century.

Before I present it, I want to ask what part of eastern europe are you from.......Poland!

in regards to Polish kings..........Polish site say there where kings from 960AD to 1790AD...is this BS?

http://info-poland.buffalo.edu/web/history/kings/link.shtml

 

[LeBrok]

Before I present it, I want to ask what part of eastern europe are you from.......Poland!

in regards to Polish kings..........Polish site say there where kings from 960AD to 1790AD...is this BS?

http://info-poland.buffalo.edu/web/history/kings/link.shtml

There were kings, but does it say continuously?

It is all there, just read the details.
http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Timeline of rulers of Poland
Scroll to 13th century, do you see a king? All Dukes.

 

[dublin]

zanipolo you said:

original baltic people where butchered by the slavs in the darkages.

Before I present it, I want to ask what part of eastern europe are you from.......Poland!

and now i have to say: what is your problem? are you racist in general or do you just hate slavs? your posts are more like political pamphlets then historical discussion. and who do you support in your political campaign? do you actually know who you are or do you just know who you would like to be? i see that you describe yourself as venet? no one in the world know for sure who venets were but you know that you are one? how pretentious can you get?

sparkey

First of all, I misworded what I meant a bit. I don't think that the Germanic contribution to the East Prussian Germans was all from the Teutonic Knights. Secondly, I'm not claiming that they were I1 entirely, I'm trying to make a calculation based on an approximate distribution. My numbers have R1b as higher than I1, also. Even if the baseline we use for I1 contribution from Germanic peoples is less than the amount we see in our sample of East Prussian Germans, we'll still likely find them to be intermediate between German and Old Prussian distributions. What do you think the approximate R1a : R1b : N : I1 distribution was of all the Germanic people who moved to East Prussia over time?

the reason i posted the depopulation map after the 30 years war is just to show you what one war can do to the population. 30 years war was waged during the period [FONT=arial, sans-serif]1618–1648. the slavic crusade started in the 8th century. during this crusade slavic and baltic population from the suth baltic region was systematically destroyed or converted. huge amount of frankish population was settled in today's eastern germany and poland. so even before the teutonic knights arrived a major population shift was happening. i don't even want to go to the period before the 5th century. no one knows who rally lived in the east baltic at that time and before. my guess is balto slavic celtic nordic mix (N, R1a, I2, I1). you can see who i associate with which genetic type. i believe that the I2 haplogroup was the original la tene haplogroup and that R1b has nothing to do with it. i know that this basically introduces two type of "celts" but this explains a lot of things that sticking to R1b as "la tene" group can't.

i believe that R1b is the intruder haplotype in the central eaurope, which came from the south west. this is why you have a split between "celtic" languages and "celtic" material culture. R1b - I2. but this is only my opinion. and yes we can discuss it if you want. [/FONT]

 

[sparkey]

the reason i posted the depopulation map after the 30 years war is just to show you what one war can do to the population. 30 years war was waged during the period 1618–1648. the slavic crusade started in the 8th century. during this crusade slavic and baltic population from the suth baltic region was systematically destroyed or converted. huge amount of frankish population was settled in today's eastern germany and poland. so even before the teutonic knights arrived a major population shift was happening. i don't even want to go to the period before the 5th century. no one knows who rally lived in the east baltic at that time and before. my guess is balto slavic celtic nordic mix (N, R1a, I2, I1). you can see who i associate with which genetic type. i believe that the I2 haplogroup was the original la tene haplogroup and that R1b has nothing to do with it. i know that this basically introduces two type of "celts" but this explains a lot of things that sticking to R1b as "la tene" group can't.

i believe that R1b is the intruder haplotype in the central eaurope, which came from the south west. this is why you have a split between "celtic" languages and "celtic" material culture. R1b - I2. but this is only my opinion. and yes we can discuss it if you want.

OK, so your challenge isn't with the "EastP" sample distribution, but with the "OldP" sample distribution. I'd agree that that is the more questionable of the two, because we have to ask: How many who claim Old Prussian ancestry are actually of Old Prussian ancestry?

Let's take an extreme of your position that they had no R1b; lots of N, R1a, and I2; and a bit of I1. So we get something like:
Population: R1a : R1b : N : I1
My OldP: 46% : 13% : 39% : 1%
Dublin's OldP: 40% : 0% : 40% : 20%

Based on that, I get:
Per R1a: 33%
Per R1b: 48%
Per N: 68%
Per I1: 100%
Average: 62%

So your hypotheses give a little more Old Prussian influence, with larger error bars.

 

[zanipolo]

@Dublin

Racist, WTF ....the racist is you who have these nationalistic traits that everything is slavic.
proto-slavic is BS, proto-this is BS, proto-that is BS.......do we say proto-greek for areas of catalonia, marseilles, corsica, italy etc etc because Greeks where there.? Do we call them Greeks.
- lets see, illyrians are slavs, thracians are slavs, baltic people are slavs, scandinavians are slavs, irish are slavs.......what else did you say?

all tribes/peoples before migration of slav people are not slavs, the ancient tribes of Poland as an example are extinct. neither slav nor germanic. none are slav, all are slav, none are germanic, all are germanic, none are balts, all are balts.

And ...the term balto-slavic means a linguistic terminology, not ethnic, it can be spoken by people who are neither baltic or slavic.
as an example, Latin was spoke by people who where not Roman or "Italian". They are not proto-Roman.

So, you need to stop reciting the slav propaganda you where taught at school, a book which I have already noted in this site many times.

Next time, name the slav tribe you talk about and we will see

 

[nordicwarrior]

I think Zanipolo may have specified the ninth century because of Charlemagne. Charlemagne (died 814 A.D.) did more to re-arrange the deck chairs of Germanic y-DNA than anyone else until the WWI/WWII era.

I agree that the Teutonic Knights were massively R1b, as were the Templars. I imagine many would have had genetic ties to R1b France?

 

[al-kochol]

all tribes/peoples before migration of slav people are not slavs, the ancient tribes of Poland as an example are extinct. neither slav nor germanic. none are slav, all are slav, none are germanic, all are germanic, none are balts, all are balts.

What migration of Slavs? Where from? Weren't post-Scythian or proto-Slavic tribes living on the territory of modern Poland for ages?