J2b2-L283 (proto-illyrian)

We have our very first ancient PH4679 sample. It's sample ITTQ19 (~700 BCE) from Tarquinia. He had blue eyes and light brown hair. Courtesy of @Trojet :
PH4679motherfucker.jpg
 
I just wanted to revive the thread and I didn't checked the details of the ydna. As one of the topics in this thread was the not so many cases of having both J2b-L283 and E-v13 in one context, there is another case of both haplos being in the same context.
I see several users that took always this argument, so there you have another reason for them to be dormant these days.
I just wanted to revive the thread and I didn't checked the details of the ydna. As one of the topics in this thread was the not so many cases of having both J2b-L283 and E-v13 in one context, there is another case of both haplos being in the same context.
I see several users that took always this argument, so there you have another reason for them to be dormant these days.
If you're referring to me with this comment on "dormant" then you should know that I deactivated Albhistory a month ago before this paper ever came out. You are as wrong as you always were.

Anyway, as of a couple of days ago Albhistory is now also permanently deleted. If I could I would also delete all the posts and this one here on eupedia as it disgusts me to be reminded that I share space with vermin like you.

For seven years I tried to entirely with my own labours research, collate, and present information related to the Albanian subject in an accessible and good faith way to as wide as possible an audience, covering history, archaeology, genetics, ethnography, art, music, classics, and so much more. Even if you try to commission a graphic designer to produce just a couple of the 100s of graphics that I alone produced and circulate without attribution even then you still wouldn't grasp the amount of man-hours and labour that I also put into deep research, writing, and so on.

So I am not dormant but retired, I have no further interest in debating or advancing the "truth for the public interest" as I used to. I will pursue this subject totally in private from now on. You and bruzmi and targaryen and all the rest of you human garbage scum can proliferate whatever bullshit narratives make your pathetic broken personalities feel better about yourselves, i couldn't care less anymore. I'm gonna watch in amusement and I will not expend a single calorie further on trying to counter you for the "good of the public".
 
If you're referring to me with this comment on "dormant" then you should know that I deactivated Albhistory a month ago before this paper ever came out. You are as wrong as you always were.

Anyway, as of a couple of days ago Albhistory is now also permanently deleted. If I could I would also delete all the posts and this one here on eupedia as it disgusts me to be reminded that I share space with vermin like you.

For seven years I tried to entirely with my own labours research, collate, and present information related to the Albanian subject in an accessible and good faith way to as wide as possible an audience, covering history, archaeology, genetics, ethnography, art, music, classics, and so much more. Even if you try to commission a graphic designer to produce just a couple of the 100s of graphics that I alone produced and circulate without attribution even then you still wouldn't grasp the amount of man-hours and labour that I also put into deep research, writing, and so on.

So I am not dormant but retired, I have no further interest in debating or advancing the "truth for the public interest" as I used to. I will pursue this subject totally in private from now on. You and bruzmi and targaryen and all the rest of you human garbage scum can proliferate whatever bullshit narratives make your pathetic broken personalities feel better about yourselves, i couldn't care less anymore. I'm gonna watch in amusement and I will not expend a single calorie further on trying to counter you for the "good of the public".
I suppose our friendly neighbors had some pretty solid support systems to maintain similar accounts, like kos_data and yours. What has happened?
 
Good day for some, bad day for others ...
While J-Y21045 just discovered few days ago that their line comes from Etruscans and was likely injected in the Balkans by Romans ~0 CE, the paper for MBG006 finally aired :

Title = Evidence for dynastic succession among early Celtic elites in Central Europe
J. Gretzinger et al.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41562-024-01888-7

MBG006 is J-Z628 (J-Z597), he dates from ~616-530 BCE, he comes from Magdalenenberg, South-Western Germany (as we had well deduced from site names). Isotope analysis indicates a diet rich in animal protein (thus likely a fairly "high rank" individual).

Keep in mind that this sample is very important as it proves that Romans were mastering time-travel and dispatched J-L283 not only accross space but also accross time !!!
 
Good day for some, bad day for others ...
While J-Y21045 just discovered few days ago that their line comes from Etruscans and was likely injected in the Balkans by Romans ~0 CE, the paper for MBG006 finally aired :

Title = Evidence for dynastic succession among early Celtic elites in Central Europe
J. Gretzinger et al.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41562-024-01888-7

MBG006 is J-Z628 (J-Z597), he dates from ~616-530 BCE, he comes from Magdalenenberg, South-Western Germany (as we had well deduced from site names). Isotope analysis indicates a diet rich in animal protein (thus likely a fairly "high rank" individual).

Keep in mind that this sample is very important as it proves that Romans were mastering time-travel and dispatched J-L283 not only accross space but also accross time !!!

This study also proves that Celts (late Hallstatt/La Tene) have nothing to do with Urnfield, the genetics and ydna are completely different to Tollense. Celts didn't exist in the Bronze age so they didn't have anything to do with Urnfield regardless. Late Hallstatt has a lot of G2a and R1b while at Tollense (Urnfield battle) they were mostly I2 with some R1b and rare R1a - note that they had zero G2a. Tollense warriors match closest with Polish and Ukrainian people of today while these Hallstatt/La Tene samples match with French and Swiss.
 
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This also proves that Celts (late Hallstatt/La Tene) have nothing to do with Urnfield, the genetics and ydna are completely different to Tollense.
I never saw someone claiming ethnic uniformity for Urnfilders.
 
I looked at about five samples from the (upcoming) study "Geographic origin, ancestry, and death circumstances at the Cornaux/Les Sauges Iron Age bridge, Switzerland".

At least four of them are under R1b-L51, however, sample COR-8/3432 dating to the Late Iron Age (ca. 450-1 BCE) is J2b-L283>>Z38240>Z38241>PH1602.

As we can see in the aDNA map, the oldest J-Z38240 samples, which also lived not far from its TMRCA, come from the Cetina culture of Croatia, including a J-Z3824>Z38241. Additionally, the oldest PH1602+ samples come from Croatia, not far from the Adriatic coast. And so we have good evidence of local continuity for J-PH1602 in northwestern Balkans.

This is the third Iron Age J2b-L283 sample which has appeared north of the Balkans. Two of them are confirmed J-Z38240+, likely the third one as well since he is Z1297-. Not surprising IMO, considering that out of its main branches, J-Z38240 has a northwestern Balkans distribution, while J-Z638 more southwestern.
 
As explained many times ...
J-L283, in particular some J-Z597 lineages had two major movements toward the west following the Danubian bassin and/or crossing the Alps directly from Italy.
Per-se, J-PH1602 and his ~1100 BCE diversification with strong Central European signal have been partially spread by Urnfielders.
A later movement likely from Eastern Alps (Eastern Hallstatt) or North-Italy also added some J-Z638 subclades way later during LaTène or slightly earlier (a concerned sample for this later movement is RMPR116 that was found with a typically Gaulish admixture).
Some J-Z631 & J-Y27522 are also expected in the west during the last century BCE (which is a given for J-Z631 to give enough time to have a Gaulish admixture by 100 CE).

The mythology about Roman mass-displacement keeps collapsing under the proofs emerging.
While Roman did affected some subclades, Romans didn't had a major effect on J-L283 distribution ... or maybe for few subclades, like the one found among Etruscans that Roman likely helped to cross the Adriatic.
 
As explained many times ...
J-L283, in particular some J-Z597 lineages had two major movements toward the west following the Danubian bassin and/or crossing the Alps directly from Italy.
Per-se, J-PH1602 and his ~1100 BCE diversification with strong Central European signal have been partially spread by Urnfielders.
A later movement likely from Eastern Alps (Eastern Hallstatt) or North-Italy also added some J-Z638 subclades way later during LaTène or slightly earlier (a concerned sample for this later movement is RMPR116 that was found with a typically Gaulish admixture).
Some J-Z631 & J-Y27522 are also expected in the west during the last century BCE (which is a given for J-Z631 to give enough time to have a Gaulish admixture by 100 CE).

The mythology about Roman mass-displacement keeps collapsing under the proofs emerging.
While Roman did affected some subclades, Romans didn't had a major effect on J-L283 distribution ... or maybe for few subclades, like the one found among Etruscans that Roman likely helped to cross the Adriatic.

There was zero J2b L283 in Tollense. J2b L283 remained strong in Western Balkans until the Romans got there, we had samples recently from a Croatian island and there was almost total replacement of J2b L283 in the Roman era, they really messed up the Dalmatians
 
What would be the most likely explanation for the J-L283 and other seemingly North Adriatic/South East Alpine lineages that were found at Ellwangen? The fact that J-L283, R-S8183, and R-BY3620 all show up together seems to speak of a population movement and the most ancient samples of all aforementioned groups seem to be around the Adriatic/Southeast Alpine zone.

There were Roman forts of importance right near Ellwangen but at the same time there is MBG006, which seems to speak of an Urnfield/Hallstatt movement of J-L283 and perhaps the previously mentioned R-L2 lineages to southwest Germany. I've heard some sources mention Illyrian connections to the Vindelici, could there be any relation here?
 
What would be the most likely explanation for the J-L283 and other seemingly North Adriatic/South East Alpine lineages that were found at Ellwangen? The fact that J-L283, R-S8183, and R-BY3620 all show up together seems to speak of a population movement and the most ancient samples of all aforementioned groups seem to be around the Adriatic/Southeast Alpine zone.

There were Roman forts of importance right near Ellwangen but at the same time there is MBG006, which seems to speak of an Urnfield/Hallstatt movement of J-L283 and perhaps the previously mentioned R-L2 lineages to southwest Germany. I've heard some sources mention Illyrian connections to the Vindelici, could there be any relation here?

One would need to check the deeper clade, but in many cases these might be protohistoric movements before the formation of Iron Age ethnic groups.

Sources, if ancient, should always be read with great caution.
 
There was zero J2b L283 in Tollense. J2b L283 remained strong in Western Balkans until the Romans got there, we had samples recently from a Croatian island and there was almost total replacement of J2b L283 in the Roman era, they really messed up the Dalmatians
Why would you expect L283 in Tollense ?
It is not the same subgroup ... J-L283 circulated in Middle-Danube and North-Alpine Urnfield groups.
No surviving diversity spot can be clearly linked with northern Urnfield groups. If some J-L283 penetrated these groups, they were not a lot and failed to expand.

While some J-L283 are related to Roman-era stuff ... the Roman-obsession is just not fitting. All probes are saying the same story.

What would be the most likely explanation for the J-L283 and other seemingly North Adriatic/South East Alpine lineages that were found at Ellwangen? The fact that J-L283, R-S8183, and R-BY3620 all show up together seems to speak of a population movement and the most ancient samples of all aforementioned groups seem to be around the Adriatic/Southeast Alpine zone.

There were Roman forts of importance right near Ellwangen but at the same time there is MBG006, which seems to speak of an Urnfield/Hallstatt movement of J-L283 and perhaps the previously mentioned R-L2 lineages to southwest Germany. I've heard some sources mention Illyrian connections to the Vindelici, could there be any relation here?

J-Z597 movements toward western Europe occured in multiple occasions :
-Likely with Urnfield North Alpine group around 1200/1100 BCE
-With the diffusion of Iron-Age around 800 BCE
-With LaTène around 400 BCE
-Minor movements around Roman era are also to be considered.
-Some very minor movements might also have occured around ~2000 BCE related to BB.

Southern Germany have been the "target" of nearly all this movement, creating some pile-up signal there.
Therefore, it is very hard to be categoric for individual lineages migration time beyond a broad "IA".
What is a given, according to diversity, is that the movements of J-Z597s toward the western Europe occured since ~1200 BCE at least.
 
What would be the most likely explanation for the J-L283 and other seemingly North Adriatic/South East Alpine lineages that were found at Ellwangen? The fact that J-L283, R-S8183, and R-BY3620 all show up together seems to speak of a population movement and the most ancient samples of all aforementioned groups seem to be around the Adriatic/Southeast Alpine zone.

There were Roman forts of importance right near Ellwangen but at the same time there is MBG006, which seems to speak of an Urnfield/Hallstatt movement of J-L283 and perhaps the previously mentioned R-L2 lineages to southwest Germany. I've heard some sources mention Illyrian connections to the Vindelici, could there be any relation here?

Nothing to do with Urnfield, Tumulus culture movement is possible as J2B l283 emerged with Cetina
 
Why would you expect L283 in Tollense ?
It is not the same subgroup ... J-L283 circulated in Middle-Danube and North-Alpine Urnfield groups.
No surviving diversity spot can be clearly linked with northern Urnfield groups. If some J-L283 penetrated these groups, they were not a lot and failed to expand.

While some J-L283 are related to Roman-era stuff ... the Roman-obsession is just not fitting. All probes are saying the same story.



J-Z597 movements toward western Europe occured in multiple occasions :
-Likely with Urnfield North Alpine group around 1200/1100 BCE
-With the diffusion of Iron-Age around 800 BCE
-With LaTène around 400 BCE
-Minor movements around Roman era are also to be considered.
-Some very minor movements might also have occured around ~2000 BCE related to BB.

Southern Germany have been the "target" of nearly all this movement, creating some pile-up signal there.
Therefore, it is very hard to be categoric for individual lineages migration time beyond a broad "IA".
What is a given, according to diversity, is that the movements of J-Z597s toward the western Europe occured since ~1200 BCE at least.

Early Urnfielders were mostly I2 with small amount of R1b and R1a and expanded from east to west. J2b l283 was spread with Cetina and Tumulus culture
 
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Nothing to do with Urnfield, Tumulus culture movement is possible as J2B l283 emerged with Cetina
Tumulus culture is too early for this scenario to work.
While you seems deeply convinced that Urnfield were ethnically homogeneous ... I never saw anyone serious claiming such a thing.
Urnfield were composed by many subgroups, a lot of them barely interacting.

Urnfielders were mostly I2 with small amount of R1b and R1a. J2b l283 was spread with Cetina and Tumulus culture

No ... By Tumulus culture times, J-L283 presence in central Europe was at best marginal (we can discuss some specific J-Z597 sublineages and J-YP91 ... but we lack data to be affirmative).
The two main J-L283 sublineage, J-Y15058 and J-Z638 were still mostly contained around Italy and South-Eastern Europe around the epoch of Tumulus culture.

Urnfield culture is poorly sampled, for a big reason : cremation.
Urnfield, as any culture, likely experienced strong regional variations.
Many clades expanded during Urnfield times ... and different clades dominated different regions depending on specific subgroups that barely overlaped.

Thus, no Urnfielders as a whole weren't primarly I2.
The clade that experienced the biggest expansion around Urnfields times were R1b-related, while R1a and I2 also experienced significant demographic boom.

All probes are showing that Urnfields were not dominated by a single lineage, but were in fact a moment in human history were many various lineages expanded inside partially distinct "regional areas", roughly fitting Urnfield culture subgroups.

Conclusions about one subgroup can't be generalised to all subgroups ...
 
Tumulus culture is too early for this scenario to work.
While you seems deeply convinced that Urnfield were ethnically homogeneous ... I never saw anyone serious claiming such a thing.
Urnfield were composed by many subgroups, a lot of them barely interacting.



No ... By Tumulus culture times, J-L283 presence in central Europe was at best marginal (we can discuss some specific J-Z597 sublineages and J-YP91 ... but we lack data to be affirmative).
The two main J-L283 sublineage, J-Y15058 and J-Z638 were still mostly contained around Italy and South-Eastern Europe around the epoch of Tumulus culture.

Urnfield culture is poorly sampled, for a big reason : cremation.
Urnfield, as any culture, likely experienced strong regional variations.
Many clades expanded during Urnfield times ... and different clades dominated different regions depending on specific subgroups that barely overlaped.

Thus, no Urnfielders as a whole weren't primarly I2.
The clade that experienced the biggest expansion around Urnfields times were R1b-related, while R1a and I2 also experienced significant demographic boom.

All probes are showing that Urnfields were not dominated by a single lineage, but were in fact a moment in human history were many various lineages expanded inside partially distinct "regional areas", roughly fitting Urnfield culture subgroups.

Conclusions about one subgroup can't be generalised to all subgroups ...

If you meant a few J2b l283 moved north during the Urnfield "period"/early iron age then sure that may be possible but the majority of J2b l283 remained in western Balkans and italy continuing their tumulus tradition and not cremating.

We don't have many Urnfield samples because as you said they were cremating, however we have hundreds of Tollense battle samples and none were J2b l283, this at least rules out J2b l283 being part of the proto Urnfield elites/tribes. Remember that Urnfield started in east/central Europe and expanded westward
 
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We don't have many Urnfield samples because as you said they were cremating, however we have Tollense battle samples were thousands of bodies were found and none were J2b l283, this at least rules out J2b l283 being part of the proto Urnfield elites/tribes. Remember that Urnfield started in east/central Europe and expanded westward

Your claim rely a big assumption that no serious archeologist supports ... To know, Urnfielders weren't an ethnically homogeneous culture.
By no means you can extrapolate results from Tollense to the whole Urnfield area (and we have solid statistical argument to even say that Tollense is not representative of the demographic booms occuring inside the Urnfielders area).

We can track demographic boom for each haplogroup family ... and your claim that Urnfielders were dominated by I2 didn't stands. I2 was indeed a significant part of it, but R1a and R1b were aswell, just with regional specificities regarding the lineage who entered demographic expansion.

L283 have spent most of its history spreading metallurgical progress. L283 travelled as small groups for most if its history. Clearly it never exceeded few percent among Urnfielders ... Whatever you want them to be "elite" or "commoners", this is pointless and unsolveable consideration that didn't interst me (they likely were represented in both categories btw).
This small-group travelling behavior of J-L283 also applies to the few lineages that entered expansion during Urnfield period ... not matching at all with Tumulus-culture expansion time.
The demographic boom just didn't occurs at the right time and the right place for your "idea" to have some echoes in the reality.


If you meant a few J2b l283 moved north during the Urnfield "period"/early iron age then sure that may be possible but the majority of J2b l283 remained in western Balkans and italy continuing their tumulus tradition and not cremating.

Thus, you want to make J-L283 arrive in the west with Tumulus culture, but you claim that they were still in western Balkans after Urnfield ? We have a chronological issue here.

Ancient DNA, MAG006, support the idea that some J-L283 arrived around south-western Germany by LBA/EIA.

J-L283 expanded significantly during EIA following the north-Alpine Danubian corridor.
These expansion started with Urnfieldized lineages around eastern Alps (mostly some J-Y15058 lineages). That movement got mainly restricted to North-Alpine Urnfield subgroup.
We can easily time these demographic expansions, and we can easily estimate east/west decoupling time using clade spatial cross-correlation.

Considering that, beyond the not-representative case of Tollense battlefield you didn't brought any argument ... I didn't see the point in going further in this discussion.
I offer you the final word !
 
What would be the most likely explanation for the J-L283 and other seemingly North Adriatic/South East Alpine lineages that were found at Ellwangen? The fact that J-L283, R-S8183, and R-BY3620 all show up together seems to speak of a population movement and the most ancient samples of all aforementioned groups seem to be around the Adriatic/Southeast Alpine zone.

There were Roman forts of importance right near Ellwangen but at the same time there is MBG006, which seems to speak of an Urnfield/Hallstatt movement of J-L283 and perhaps the previously mentioned R-L2 lineages to southwest Germany. I've heard some sources mention Illyrian connections to the Vindelici, could there be any relation here?
Strabo the historian claims these vindelici where illyrian, but he claimed many alpine tribes where ..............noricum (east austria ) was illyrian, Port of Vienna (not Vienna ) was a illyrian city as per current Unesco archeological digs

One of 4 pages of Illyrian names found in Noricum

I think there is a confusion between pure halstatt celts and mixed populace in the east alps area......like Veneti dressed celtic but spoke none celtic language, could be same with some Illyrian tribes in Noricum, like the Carni tribe
 

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Cetina culture and Liburnian times .........from 2000BC ....................islands plus 2 large coastal cities and many more minor ones on the dalmatian coast
If you meant a few J2b l283 moved north during the Urnfield "period"/early iron age then sure that may be possible but the majority of J2b l283 remained in western Balkans and italy continuing their tumulus tradition and not cremating.

We don't have many Urnfield samples because as you said they were cremating, however we have hundreds of Tollense battle samples and none were J2b l283, this at least rules out J2b l283 being part of the proto Urnfield elites/tribes. Remember that Urnfield started in east/central Europe and expanded westward
 

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Your claim rely a big assumption that no serious archeologist supports ... To know, Urnfielders weren't an ethnically homogeneous culture.
By no means you can extrapolate results from Tollense to the whole Urnfield area (and we have solid statistical argument to even say that Tollense is not representative of the demographic booms occuring inside the Urnfielders area).

We can track demographic boom for each haplogroup family ... and your claim that Urnfielders were dominated by I2 didn't stands. I2 was indeed a significant part of it, but R1a and R1b were aswell, just with regional specificities regarding the lineage who entered demographic expansion.

L283 have spent most of its history spreading metallurgical progress. L283 travelled as small groups for most if its history. Clearly it never exceeded few percent among Urnfielders ... Whatever you want them to be "elite" or "commoners", this is pointless and unsolveable consideration that didn't interst me (they likely were represented in both categories btw).
This small-group travelling behavior of J-L283 also applies to the few lineages that entered expansion during Urnfield period ... not matching at all with Tumulus-culture expansion time.
The demographic boom just didn't occurs at the right time and the right place for your "idea" to have some echoes in the reality.




Thus, you want to make J-L283 arrive in the west with Tumulus culture, but you claim that they were still in western Balkans after Urnfield ? We have a chronological issue here.

Ancient DNA, MAG006, support the idea that some J-L283 arrived around south-western Germany by LBA/EIA.

J-L283 expanded significantly during EIA following the north-Alpine Danubian corridor.
These expansion started with Urnfieldized lineages around eastern Alps (mostly some J-Y15058 lineages). That movement got mainly restricted to North-Alpine Urnfield subgroup.
We can easily time these demographic expansions, and we can easily estimate east/west decoupling time using clade spatial cross-correlation.

Considering that, beyond the not-representative case of Tollense battlefield you didn't brought any argument ... I didn't see the point in going further in this discussion.
I offer you the final word !

Your head cannon speculation is pointless, I am using archeological data. J2b l283 has not yet been found in early Urnfield related expansions, it was mostly i2 lines that started the Urnfield movement in late bronze age. I am not talking about who became part of it in the end - I am talking about who was leading the charge and J2b l283 is 100% out of the picture
 
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